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Re: [XTalk] Re: another jesus movie? & Re: Gibson Movie

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  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
    Concerning Mike McLafferty s post: I ve been trying to follow the controversy over Gibson s not-yet-released move and wondering about judgements rendered
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 2, 2003
      Concerning Mike McLafferty's post: I've been trying to
      follow the controversy over Gibson's not-yet-released
      move and wondering about judgements rendered before
      the movie's release, but this post has raised real
      concerns for me.

      I had Paula Frederickson as an instructor at Berkeley,
      and I trust her judgement, for the most part. If
      Gibson was relying upon medieval nuns who also
      (apparently) held antisemitic views (or so I've heard
      elsewhere), then this is really a problem.

      Antisemitism might not be a serious issue in America,
      but it's again a rising problem in Europe as well as
      in the Muslim world, and Gibson ought to be aware of
      this.

      If Gibson's movie turns out to have the distortions
      that some fear that it has, then this is -- to put it
      mildly -- not good. I'll wait until I see the film to
      form a solid judgement, but from what I've heard
      lately, I am concerned.

      Too bad. I've always rather liked Gibson.

      Jeffery Hodges

      =====
      Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
      Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
      447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
      Yangsandong 411
      South Korea

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    • Bob Schacht
      ... Liz, Were you referring to Mel Gibson s Martyrdom Complex ? August 3, 2003
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
        At 10:37 AM 8/2/2003 -0400, you wrote:
        >Thank you for this response.
        >There is also an article in today's New York Times bringing up
        >many of the same points.
        >Liz

        Liz,
        Were you referring to
        "Mel Gibson's Martyrdom Complex"?
        August 3, 2003

        http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/03/arts/03RICH.html?ex=1060921857&ei=1&en=1312469e0d779d50

        I appreciated the excerpts from the New Republic article, which seemed to
        have more of the pertinent details for this list.

        Thanks,
        Bob



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Liz Fried
        ... From: Bob Schacht [mailto:bobschacht@infomagic.net] Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 3:23 PM To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [XTalk] Re: another
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Bob Schacht [mailto:bobschacht@...]
          Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 3:23 PM
          To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [XTalk] Re: another jesus movie? & Re: Gibson Movie


          At 10:37 AM 8/2/2003 -0400, you wrote:
          >Thank you for this response.
          >There is also an article in today's New York Times bringing up
          >many of the same points.
          >Liz

          Liz,
          Were you referring to
          "Mel Gibson's Martyrdom Complex"?
          August 3, 2003


          http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/03/arts/03RICH.html?ex=1060921857&ei=1&en=131
          2469e0d779d50

          I appreciated the excerpts from the New Republic article, which seemed to
          have more of the pertinent details for this list.

          Thanks,
          Bob

          It doesn't seem likely, does it, when the letter I sent is dated to Aug.
          2, and
          the article you refer to appeared only on Aug. 3?
          Liz


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • Bob Schacht
          ... No, it doesn t seem likely. That s why I asked. I access the NYT on the net, and the Internet version often retains articles on their home page for several
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
            At 04:14 PM 8/3/2003 -0400, Liz Fried wrote:

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Bob Schacht [mailto:bobschacht@...]
            > Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 3:23 PM
            > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [XTalk] Re: another jesus movie? & Re: Gibson Movie
            >
            >
            > At 10:37 AM 8/2/2003 -0400, you wrote:
            > >Thank you for this response.
            > >There is also an article in today's New York Times bringing up
            > >many of the same points.
            > >Liz
            >
            > Liz,
            > Were you referring to
            > "Mel Gibson's Martyrdom Complex"?
            > August 3, 2003
            >
            >
            >http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/03/arts/03RICH.html?ex=1060921857&ei=1&en=131
            >2469e0d779d50
            >
            > I appreciated the excerpts from the New Republic article, which seemed to
            > have more of the pertinent details for this list.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Bob
            >
            > It doesn't seem likely, does it, when the letter I sent is dated to
            > Aug. 2, and
            > the article you refer to appeared only on Aug. 3?
            > Liz

            No, it doesn't seem likely. That's why I asked. I access the NYT on the
            net, and the Internet version often retains articles on their home page for
            several days after the original appearance. It also seemed to me odd that
            they might publish two different arts review columns in such a short span
            of time.

            Bob
          • Mike McLafferty
            ... [about Paula Fredriksen s New Republic piece.] ... *** It interested me, too, that as soon as I revived a months-old thread, two successive articles should
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 4, 2003
              Liz to me on August 2:

              > Thank you for this response...
              [about Paula Fredriksen's New Republic piece.]
              > There is also an article in today's New York
              > Times bringing up many of the same points.

              Bob to Liz:

              > Were you referring to "Mel Gibson's Martyrdom
              > Complex"? August 3, 2003

              ...and later:

              > ...It also seemed to me odd that they might
              > publish two different arts review columns in
              > such a short span of time.

              ***
              It interested me, too, that as soon as I revived a months-old thread, two
              successive articles should pop up in the NYT. But they, and the Fredriksen
              TNR article, are all appearing because Gibson (a guy who parted company with
              Rome over Vatican II) has been screening his rough cut for select
              sympathetic audiences to generate buzz.

              The article Liz cited was from Saturday the 2nd, by Laurie Goodstein, called
              "Months Before Debut, Movie on Death of Jesus Causes Stir."

              > Mr. [Paul] Lauer, marketing director for Icon,
              > said Mr. Gibson's rendering was not anti-Semitic,
              > but simply followed the New Testament. "There
              > are some sympathetic to Christ and some who
              > clearly want to get rid of this guy," he said. "And
              > that's clearly scriptural. You can't get away from
              > the fact that there are some Jews who wanted
              > this guy dead."

              ( http://tinyurl.com/ixza )

              Frank Rich's Sunday article, "Mel Gibson's Martyrdom," also has
              shudder-inducing quotes, including this one:

              > Asked by Bill O'Reilly in January if his movie
              > might upset "any Jewish people," Mr. Gibson
              > responded: "It may. It's not meant to. I think
              > it's meant to just tell the truth. . . . Anybody
              > who transgresses has to look at their own part
              > or look at their own culpability."

              ( http://tinyurl.com/ixzs )

              There's a lot of net chat building up, especially stuff on the fundy fringe
              that echoes these quotes, such as:

              > i hope mel gibson does his movie without fear
              > of the jews, the Passion of Jesus cannot be
              > changed for the sake of the jews or their vatican 2.

              ( http://tinyurl.com/iy0s )

              The movie teaser can be viewed in various formats at:

              http://www.passion-movie.com/english/trailer.html

              It does look visually powerful (but so was "Triumph of the Will"). This
              story is growing. Both Times articles bear reading in full, and are worth
              the price of free registration with the NYT, IMO.

              Michael McLafferty
              (no affiliation)
              Portland, Oregon, USA
            • Austin Meredith
              Is a Passion Play harmful only if it is Antisemitic? In other words, in general, has anything good ever come out of the sort of Christian who is preoccupied
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 4, 2003
                Is a Passion Play harmful only if it is Antisemitic? In other words, in
                general, has anything good ever come out of the sort of Christian who is
                preoccupied with Jesus's death rather than his life?

                That's not a rhetorical question, I don't think -- scanning about in my
                imagination, I am failing to come up with historical instances. (I know of
                no evidence that the life of Mel Gibson, for instance, has been improved by
                such a preoccupation, or, at least, nothing of the sort has been being
                debated in the fan 'zines.) Maybe one of you can assist my imagination by
                supplying the name of some historical individual who allegedly has been
                improved by such a preoccupation, arguing that perchance the sainthood of
                Francis would have been improved by the appearance of stigmata on the palms
                of his hands?

                I'm at a loss. Disregarding Semitism, disregarding Antisemitism -- has that
                sort of preoccupation with manner of death rather than manner of life
                *ever* produced *anything* other than viciousness?
              • Mike Grondin
                ... You know, I was thinking something like this myself as I read over the account of the one nun s visions , and the accompanying commentary. A lonely old
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 4, 2003
                  --- Austin Meredith wrote:
                  > Disregarding Semitism, disregarding Antisemitism -- has that
                  > sort of preoccupation with manner of death rather than manner
                  > of life *ever* produced *anything* other than viciousness?

                  You know, I was thinking something like this myself as I read
                  over the account of the one nun's "visions", and the accompanying
                  commentary. A lonely old monastic with nothing better to do than to
                  obsess about how Jesus died. Worse still the commentary that takes
                  it all seriously, and piously excuses her "confusion" about
                  historical facts. (According to her "vision", Mary Magdalene and
                  Mary the mother of Jesus were roundabout at the scourging, wiping
                  up blood with their clothes. Ugh. I wonder if THAT's in Gibson's
                  movie.) Stuff like this should be regarded by the Catholic church
                  as an embarassment. Instead, it's treated as a legitimate "vision"
                  because it meets the tests of legitimacy - among which that the
                  visionary show proper humility and "obedience to the teachings of
                  the church". Double ugh. (Ironically, Gibson himself seems to be
                  obeying only those teachings that he likes.)

                  Mike Grondin
                • Anthony Buglass
                  Austin wrote: I m at a loss. Disregarding Semitism, disregarding Antisemitism -- has that sort of preoccupation with manner of death rather than manner of life
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 18, 2003
                    Austin wrote:
                    I'm at a loss. Disregarding Semitism, disregarding Antisemitism -- has that
                    sort of preoccupation with manner of death rather than manner of life
                    *ever* produced *anything* other than viciousness?


                    If there is an emphasis on *that sort of preoccupation* with manner of death, then I'll agree with you. Otherwise, I'll throw in a big caveat. One of the weaknesses of evangelicalism as a form of Christianity is that it can become more concerned with the death of Christ than his own teaching - if you like, becoming excessively Pauline and wrapped up in a "gospel about Jesus" rather than hearing the vox Jesu and taking on board the "gospel of Jesus". However, I know personally Christians who have become so moved and inspired by the death of Christ that their own lives have been transformed. I could also find numerous examples from Christian history where the death of Christ has inspired compassion, caring, and positive living in a non-sectarian and definitely non-vicious manner. There are plenty of examples of viciousness and the worst sort of religion, I accept. But let's not get carried away, and produce as unbalanced a response to the Gibson movie as the Gibson movie seems to be.

                    Cheers,
                    Rev Tony Buglass
                    Pickering Methodist Circuit



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