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Re: [XTalk] Re: Resurrection?

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  • Bob Schacht
    ... Thanks for the interesting lesson in the history of expressions. Wasn t it also true that in Jewish cosmology, the spirit hung around the body for 3 days
    Message 1 of 169 , Jul 30, 2003
      At 11:01 PM 7/30/2003 -0500, Kilmon wrote:

      >Even up to the last century, premature burial was not uncommon. The
      >resurrection story is actually reminiscent of the "wake" to the Irish and
      >other cultures. The body of the deceased would be placed on a table for
      >three days and if the person did not WAKE, a burial took place. Three days
      >appears to be fairly standard for the awakening of catatonic people. In
      >some cases, the buried and encoffined deceased was provided with a string
      >that led to a bell dangling over the grave. People were hired to stay the
      >night and listen for the bell if the buried deceased awoke..hence "saved by
      >the bell" and the "graveyard shiift." There are numerous stories of
      >"resurrections" of people considered dead and many other exhumations that
      >showed signs the deceased tried to claw out of the coffin. It is not
      >impossible that Jesus could have awakened after three days following a short
      >term abuse by crucifixion. Six hours was not very long for a crucifixion.
      >What happened to him? ...

      Thanks for the interesting lesson in the history of expressions.
      Wasn't it also true that in Jewish cosmology, the spirit hung around the
      body for 3 days before leaving it for good? Isn't that numerology
      significant in the implications both for the raising of Lazarus and the
      resurrection of Jesus? That is, in order for either story to be of maximum
      significance, the body had to be dead for at least 3 days. Otherwise, it
      might have been interpreted as "merely" a resuscitation.

      I was also once told that there was a section of Roman Law dealing with
      "resurrections," but I was never able to find any details.

    • Karel Hanhart
      ... was ... My reaction: At this point I would like to insert an answer to Matthew Estrada, which I sent him privately. I would look askance at the assured
      Message 169 of 169 , Oct 11, 2003
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Horace Jeffery Hodges [mailto:jefferyhodges@...]
        > Sent: 13 August 2003 21:56
        > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [XTalk] McCoy on Jn 6
        > Geoff Hudson <geoff.hudson@...> wrote:
        > <The literal interpretation of Jn.2:3 is 'and lacking
        > wine the mother of J says to him: "wine they have
        > not." 'The implication seems to be that there never
        > was any wine for the wedding.>
        > Jeffery:
        > This 'literal interpretation' would not fit John 2:10,
        > where the Architriklinos tells the bridegroom,
        > "Everyone first sets out the good wine, and when
        > people have become drunk, the inferior wine, but you
        > have kept the good wine until now."

        > An editor changed the story from one in which purified water was a sign of
        > the Spirit to one of a miracle in which water was changed to wine - such
        > the tacky imagination of the editor.

        My reaction:

        At this point I would like to insert an answer to Matthew Estrada, which I
        sent him privately. I would look askance at the assured statement "an editor
        changed..." In spite of Ray Brown's detailed analysis searching our various
        layers in John, and the yheory of a "sign xourse" I believe one should first
        try to interpret the sign in terms of the Gospel we have before us. I would
        agree with those who believe the author knew the three Synoptic Gospels and
        commented on them also in this 'arche ton semeion'.
        'The mother of Jesus' represents faithful Israel; just as the Samaritan
        woman is addressed with "woman" representing the Samaritan people who
        acknowledge Jesus as the one sent by God (J
        Surely "my hour has not yet come" refers to Jesus' death, as the great Hour
        of the Lamb of God. The "third day" would likely refer to the day of
        resurrection1). One might read the story as a play; only 6 large empty jars
        are on stage in the opening scene (with clamor and tumult heard backstage
        because the wine had been depleted). Afterwards just three persons appear on
        stage: Jesus, his mother and, - besides a number of silent 'diakonoi' -,
        an odd, indignant character with a unfamiliar function of 'architriklinos'
        . Oddly enough, moreover, the reader is not told the identity of the main
        personalities, namely, the bride and the groom. They do donot appear on
        stage. Who is the bride and who is the groom?
        The great theme of the prophets and the Psalms is that JHWH is the
        bridegroom and Israel his bride. The bride is awaiting the coming of her
        groom. However, she can become unfaithful, even adulterous. JHWH, however,
        is and always will remain faithful. That the story starts out with an
        absent groom and bride, underlines the ambiguity of the marriage of JHWH and
        his people.
        2) The clue of the allegory is found in the end (2,8-11). The term
        'architriklinos' is deliberately chosen; it is not an accepted term for an
        official at a wedding, neither in Hebrew nor in Greek. I cannot help
        thinking John ironically refers here to the high priest, 'archiereus', who
        always presides in the great ceremonies of pre-70 (!) Israel and who would
        be considered to be the right official for the performance of the
        'marriage'. He was supposed to have taken care of a good supply of wine,
        but he fails miserably. Indignantly. he therefore goes backstage and
        privately accuses the groom, in casu JHWH. He should have served the good
        wine first ( - it is left to the imagination of the reader what this 'good
        wine' is - it certainly refers to wine fit for the above marriage in the
        pre-70 era). JHWH should have kept the inferior wine to the last (Jerusalem
        destroyed and the temple in ruins) But the 'archiereus' was seriously
        mistaken. He didnot realize what is going on as will be explained in the
        followiung chapters. (cmp John 11,48 and 51-53)
        3) There are two remarkable features in the structure of John 2. a) The
        Synoptics do not have this 'primary' sign of water changed into wine (or do
        they?). b) they donot have the entry into Jerusalem in the beginning of the
        story but at the outset of the passion story. The eye catching structure of
        ch 2 could be compared with folding doors opening up to John's entire
        haggadah. One side is brightly painted leading to the marriage, the other
        dark, full of gloom as if going to a funeral. For the theme of the second
        part of chapter 2 is the saying, "destroy this temple and I will raise it up
        it in three days" (2,19) This refers both to Jesus death (and resurrection)
        as well as to the destruction of the temple. This was in John's eyes - let
        us say - the secular reality of Israel's circumstances.
        I agree with J.L. Martyn that John's perspective is that of the ecclesia vis
        à vis the synagogue across the street, so to speak. It was written at the
        time that mutual excommunication was taking shape. In the Gospel 'the
        Passover of the Joudaioi (read the synogogue acroos the street) is placed
        next tlo the true 'Passover' of Israël initiated by the death of its Messiah
        for the salvation of Israël and the nations (or the 'kosmos' in John).
        4) In Mark Jesus' first act is to be baptized by John when the Spirit
        descends into him like a dove. Matthew writes that what is "conceived by
        her" is "of the Holy Spirit" 1,18). Luke too begins both his Gospel and his
        Acts with the outpouring of the Spirit (L 1,15ff. 35; Acts 2,4.17 (note the
        mocking 'new wine' 2,13). So would it not be plausible that John refers to
        God's Spirit as the agent that turns water into wine?
        5) It seems to me that the six waterjars refer to the water of baptism.
        There is a relation between a) John's baptism, b) Jesus' being baptized by
        John, and c) the disciples later baptizing in the name of Jesus.
        My conclusion is that the joy of the marriage will only be restored when the
        people receive the water of baptism which means a radical turning around
        toward God, a true conversion. Without baptism no wedding joy.

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