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Re: [XTalk] Jesus' burial

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  • Karel Hanhart
    ... From: Mike Grondin To: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 7:38 AM Subject: Re: [XTalk] Jesus burial Mike
    Message 1 of 66 , Jun 25, 2003
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Mike Grondin <mwgrondin@...>
      To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 7:38 AM
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] Jesus' burial

      Mike wrote,

      > Of course the (Judaeo-)Christians had to believe it themselves
      > first, but contrary to what you claim, earlier discussions on this
      > list indicate that there was no "unanimous view of the parent
      > culture" about Israel's Messiah. Indeed, some believed there would
      > be a PAIR of messiahs, as you know. It was clear on any view,
      > however, that Jesus hadn't done what was expected of Israel's
      > Messiah in his lifetime. So if he *was* Israel's Messiah (and
      > certain parallels to his life in the HB must have seemed to some of
      > his disciples to indicate so), he had to return to finish the job.
      > The notion of his coming back, then, wasn't an incidental
      > theological add-on; it was absolutely necessary to support the claim
      > that he was Israel's Messiah.

      Karel's note

      A point well taken. The parousia expectation is inextricably linked
      with faith in Jesus, the risen one. Paul's chapter on the resurrection
      ends with his revealing a 'musterion', "We will not all die, but we all will
      be changed" (1 Cor 15,51f) and in 16,22 the liturgical prayer is
      chanted in Aramaic, "Marana tha"..
      I am greatly impressed by the problem of the 'delayed parousia'.
      And it should take up a more prominent place in the discussion.
      In pre- Judaeo-Roman war years longing for a world of peace and justice was
      high in the Land, taking various shapes - from a Zelotic military to a
      Zelotic pious form. For Christian Judeans their own particular hope was
      the establishment of a Messianic kingdom in the sprit of Jesus' teaching,
      to say the least. But whatever their form, hopes ran high all around.
      The cruel war and the ruthless eradication of the centre of Judaism,
      the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, was the
      single stark historical cause for what theologians call the delayed
      It is to that historical situation that Mark adresses himself in his revised
      edition of a pre-70 Passover Haggadah. It explains in part the
      phenomenon of the "messianic secret" that in the end is unveiled in the
      vision of the women and explains their 'silence' (16,7). They aee to
      their horror the future catastrophe, but they hear that the victorious
      Jesus has already preceded them to the Galilee of the Gentiles. Its
      meaning: the paroussia is only delayed, the kingdom of justice and peace
      will come!
      This spells the difference between Mark's situation and that of Paul
      .who - to say the lesast - thought it possible that the Messianic kingdom
      would be established in his lifetime. (But in II Cor 5 and Philipp 1,
      Paul did reckon with his own death before the parousia).
      Mark was deeply influenced by Paul, taking the 'musterion' of Romans
      11,25 as the polestar for his revision (cf 13.10!). But for Paul the End was
      near; Mark realized the End was not near (13,32 - only the Father knows).


    • Brian Trafford
      ... I m afraid so Karel. Thanks for your thoughts. Brian Trafford Calgary, AB, Canada
      Message 66 of 66 , Aug 14 7:53 AM
        --- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, "Karel Hanhart" <K.Hanhart@n...>
        > Shall we then agree to disagree?

        I'm afraid so Karel. Thanks for your thoughts.

        Brian Trafford
        Calgary, AB, Canada
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