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Re: [XTalk] Eyewitnesses?

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  • Loren Rosson
    ... [Bob] ... Bauckham s article indeed undercuts the form critical assumption that most eyewitness-origins were lost under the anonymity of collective
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 13, 2003
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      >>How is this "oral tradition" to be considered
      >>(probably by a majority of scholars)?

      [Bob]
      > The problem is that this "oral tradition" is NOT
      > being seriously considered
      > by the majority of scholars...
      > However, I refer you once again to Bauckham's
      > article, and to Samuel
      > Byrskog's book, History as Story: The
      > Gospel Tradition in the Context of Ancient Oral
      > History. He succeeds in
      > poking a few holes in the consensus view.

      Bauckham's article indeed undercuts the form critical
      assumption that most eyewitness-origins were lost
      under the anonymity of collective transmission. That
      Papias, for instance, valued and expected to hear what
      actual disciples had said (like Andrew and Peter) and
      were still saying (like Aristion and John the Elder)
      indicates that oral traditions didn't necessarily
      evolve away from eyewitnesses but continued to be
      attached to them. So we can perhaps be stronger than
      speaking simply of the "voice" of oral tradition. We
      can speak of the voices of actual informants who had
      and have memories of the sayings and deeds of Jesus.

      Loren Rosson III
      Nashua NH
      rossoiii@...


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    • Richard Anderson
      ... From: Loren Rosson [mailto:rossoiii@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 7:58 AM To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [XTalk] Eyewitnesses? ...
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 13, 2003
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        -----Original Message-----
        From: Loren Rosson [mailto:rossoiii@...]
        Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 7:58 AM
        To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [XTalk] Eyewitnesses?



        >>How is this "oral tradition" to be considered
        >>(probably by a majority of scholars)?

        [Bob]
        > The problem is that this "oral tradition" is NOT
        > being seriously considered
        > by the majority of scholars...
        > However, I refer you once again to Bauckham's
        > article, and to Samuel
        > Byrskog's book, History as Story: The
        > Gospel Tradition in the Context of Ancient Oral
        > History. He succeeds in
        > poking a few holes in the consensus view.

        Bauckham's article indeed undercuts the form critical
        assumption that most eyewitness-origins were lost
        under the anonymity of collective transmission. That
        Papias, for instance, valued and expected to hear what
        actual disciples had said (like Andrew and Peter) and
        were still saying (like Aristion and John the Elder)
        indicates that oral traditions didn't necessarily
        evolve away from eyewitnesses but continued to be
        attached to them. So we can perhaps be stronger than
        speaking simply of the "voice" of oral tradition. We
        can speak of the voices of actual informants who had
        and have memories of the sayings and deeds of Jesus.

        Loren Rosson III
        Nashua NH
        rossoiii@...


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      • Richard Anderson
        My apologies for sending a blank message; I am still composing my thoughts. Richard H. Anderson
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 13, 2003
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          My apologies for sending a blank message; I am still composing my thoughts.

          Richard H. Anderson
        • David C. Hindley
          ... eyewitness-origins were lost under the anonymity of collective transmission. That Papias, for instance, valued and expected to hear what actual disciples
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 13, 2003
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            Loren Rosson III says:

            >>Bauckham's article indeed undercuts the form critical assumption that most
            eyewitness-origins were lost under the anonymity of collective transmission.
            That Papias, for instance, valued and expected to hear what actual disciples
            had said (like Andrew and Peter) and were still saying (like Aristion and
            John the Elder) indicates that oral traditions didn't necessarily evolve
            away from eyewitnesses but continued to be attached to them. So we can
            perhaps be stronger than speaking simply of the "voice" of oral tradition.
            We can speak of the voices of actual informants who had and have memories of
            the sayings and deeds of Jesus.<<

            Why could not Papias' interest in finding the oldest oral witnesses have
            been due to a distrust of, or dissatisfaction with, oral or written
            traditions as they existed more than a generation or two from the
            "eyewitnesses?" Seems he wanted to set the record straight rather than
            preserve it.

            In any event, later generations (particularly Eusebius) had none too high
            opinion of what he related: particularly the saying of Jesus that predicts a
            bountiful earthly kingdom (a tradition shared by _2 Baruch_).

            As an interesting side issue to this, the other day I received an e-mail
            from the IOUDAIOS list from Jim Davila with a link to an abstract of a new
            book by Rivka Nir, _The Destruction of Jerusalem and the Idea of Redemption
            in the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch_ (Early Judaism and Its Literature #20,
            SBL and Brill: 2003) ISBN #1589830504, which proposes that 2 Baruch may
            represent the point of view of earliest Christianity.
            http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/#95497787

            Respectfully,

            Dave Hindley
            Cleveland, Ohio, USA
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