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Re: Lloyd Re: [XTalk] The kingdom of God: Did Jesus get it wrong?

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  • Steve Dingeldein
    Interesting discussion of Jesus apocalyptic claims. As a relative amateur I d be interested in what you folk have to say about Horsely comment in Jesus and
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 2, 2003
      Interesting discussion of Jesus' apocalyptic claims. As a relative amateur
      I'd be interested in what you folk have to say about Horsely comment in
      Jesus and Empire, pp 80-81:

      "Recent liberal interpreters of Jesus are clearly uncomfortable with the
      judgmental side of Jesus' mission . . . . This is a dramatic departure from
      the earlier view made popular mainly by Albert Schweitzer of Jesus as an
      'apocalyptic' prophet who preached the end of the world. To modern Western
      sensitivities, however, the apocalyptic Jesus seems perilously close to
      being a deluded fanatic, since his predicitons of a presumed 'cosmic
      catastrophe' proved false. Some recent American interpreters have avoided
      this embarassing conclusion by rejecting as secondary any of Jesus' sayings
      that might seem 'apocalyptic' in tone or motif. This makes Jesus into an
      utterly unique historical figure - a historical impossibility, of course -
      different from both his Jewish contemporaries before him and hisown
      followers after him.

      Both the earlier picture of Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher and the more
      recent attempt to elimante apocalyptic elements are rooted in the modern
      scholarly construct of 'apocalyptic,' which is highly problematic. It is
      quesitonalbe whether this synthetic modern scholarly construct is applicable
      to any particular Jewish text, including those classified in the genre of
      'apocalypse.' More particularly, once we are more sensitive to metaphoric
      language and hyperbole, it is difficult to find any ancient Judean texts
      taht attest belief 'in the end of the world' or a 'cosmic catastrophe.' We
      need to abandon the modern concept of 'apocalyptic' and take a fresh look at
      the way the earlist Gospel documents portray Jesus' pronouncement of
      judgement."

      Steve Dingeldein
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon s earlier -- as it gives me a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be joining us in May
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 2, 2003
        Steve Dingeldein wrote:

        > Interesting discussion of Jesus' apocalyptic claims. As a relative
        > amateur
        > I'd be interested in what you folk have to say about Horsely comment
        > in
        > Jesus and Empire, pp 80-81

        Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon's earlier -- as it gives me
        a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be joining
        us in May to do a Seminar on this very book.

        Yours,

        Jeffrey
        --

        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

        1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
        Chicago, IL 60626

        jgibson000@...



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gordon Raynal
        ... Jeffrey, Any invitations out to such as Brandon Scott, Dom or Burton Mack so that list members might have a new opportunity to engage folks who see things
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
          >
          >Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon's earlier -- as it gives me
          >a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be joining
          >us in May to do a Seminar on this very book.

          Jeffrey,

          Any invitations out to such as Brandon Scott, Dom or Burton Mack so that
          list members might have a new opportunity to engage folks who see things a
          tad differently than such as Horsely and Allison? How about an invitation
          to such as Crossan, Mack, Saunders and Allison to have a methodological
          debate?

          Gordon Raynal
          Inman, SC
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... I have written to Mack previously about doing a seminar and/or participating in one/joining XTalk. He has no interest in doing so. I always let Dom know
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
            Gordon Raynal wrote:

            >
            > >
            > >Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon's earlier -- as it gives
            > me
            > >a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be
            > joining
            > >us in May to do a Seminar on this very book.
            >
            > Jeffrey,
            >
            > Any invitations out to such as Brandon Scott, Dom or Burton Mack so
            > that
            > list members might have a new opportunity to engage folks who see
            > things a
            > tad differently than such as Horsely and Allison? How about an
            > invitation
            > to such as Crossan, Mack, Saunders and Allison to have a
            > methodological
            > debate?

            I have written to Mack previously about doing a seminar and/or
            participating in one/joining XTalk. He has no interest in doing so.

            I always let Dom know about the seminars. His participation is always
            contingent on time available to him.

            As to Saunders -- forgive me if I'm being more than usually obtuse, but
            do you mean Ed Sanders? If so, there's not much hope. He has noted to me
            privately that he is one of the worst e-mail corespondents on the
            planet.

            Look for the announcement on the Allison Seminar, as well as URLs to the
            material Dale wishes to be the subject matter of the discussion, later
            today.

            Yours,

            Jeffrey
            --

            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

            1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
            Chicago, IL 60626

            jgibson000@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bob Schacht
            ... Gordon, You seem to have forgotten that we ve *already* had seminars with Crossan, and I appreciate the invitations to Allison (and Horsley again) for
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
              At 09:45 AM 3/3/2003 -0500, Gordon Raynal wrote:

              > >
              > >Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon's earlier -- as it gives me
              > >a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be joining
              > >us in May to do a Seminar on this very book.
              >
              >Jeffrey,
              >
              >Any invitations out to such as Brandon Scott, Dom or Burton Mack so that
              >list members might have a new opportunity to engage folks who see things a
              >tad differently than such as Horsely and Allison? How about an invitation
              >to such as Crossan, Mack, Saunders and Allison to have a methodological
              >debate?
              >
              >Gordon Raynal

              Gordon,
              You seem to have forgotten that we've *already* had seminars with Crossan,
              and I appreciate the invitations to Allison (and Horsley again) for
              balance. I believe the archives of these seminars are still accessible.
              Your dissing Allison (and Horsley) in advance (in previous posts, and by
              implication in this one) seems unfair and unscholarly. I can understand why
              you might want to line up scholars whose views you sympathize with, but
              please don't diss the others in the meanwhile. Instead, I think we should
              all be grateful to Jeffrey Gibson for the extra work he has done lining up
              seminar leaders. Thanks, Jeffrey!

              Bob
            • Gordon Raynal
              Thanks Jeffrey. I know this would be a big deal and they have their commitments. Maybe the HJ Group at SBL might arrange a big methodology forum day. But
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
                Thanks Jeffrey. I know this would be a big deal and they have their
                commitments. Maybe the HJ Group at SBL might arrange a big methodology
                forum day. But maybe the "round and round" will just go on. And yes, sorry
                about misspelling Ed's name. My typing skills aren't always the best!

                Gordon
              • Loren Rosson
                List members -- I have received a free trial issue of The Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus, and I must say the artciles therein are impressive. If
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
                  List members --

                  I have received a free trial issue of The Journal for
                  the Study of the Historical Jesus, and I must say the
                  artciles therein are impressive. If the editorial
                  board continues providing this level of quality, I may
                  have to subscribe. It just so happens that Dale
                  Allison kicks off with the first essay, which is
                  titled "The Continuity between John and Jesus". It
                  serves as a fine supplement to the required reading
                  material for the upcoming Allison seminar.

                  The ISSN for this publication is 1476-8690.

                  Loren Rosson III
                  Nashua NH
                  rossoiii@...


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                • Bob Webb
                  Loren, Thanks for your positive assessment of the Journal. Can I state, however, that, while the editorial board members are starting the journal by each
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
                    Loren,

                    Thanks for your positive assessment of the Journal.

                    Can I state, however, that, while the editorial board members are starting
                    the journal by each contributing a substantive new essay, the journal will
                    only be sustained by its readers and other life-of-Jesus scholars submitting
                    high-quality, cutting-edge essays.

                    So, those of you out there who are contributing scholars, I'm waiting to
                    hear from you!

                    Bob.

                    Robert L. Webb
                    Webb.Bob@...


                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Loren Rosson [mailto:rossoiii@...]
                    > Sent: March 4, 2003 10:22 AM
                    > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [XTalk] Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus
                    >
                    >
                    > List members --
                    >
                    > I have received a free trial issue of The Journal for
                    > the Study of the Historical Jesus, and I must say the
                    > artciles therein are impressive. If the editorial
                    > board continues providing this level of quality, I may
                    > have to subscribe. It just so happens that Dale
                    > Allison kicks off with the first essay, which is
                    > titled "The Continuity between John and Jesus". It
                    > serves as a fine supplement to the required reading
                    > material for the upcoming Allison seminar.
                    >
                    > The ISSN for this publication is 1476-8690.
                    >
                    > Loren Rosson III
                    > Nashua NH
                    > rossoiii@...
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
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                  • Mark Goodacre
                    Bob -- will electronic access be available soon for the journal? JSNT and other Continuum journals are available electronically and it s a shame to see that
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
                      Bob -- will electronic access be available soon for the journal?
                      JSNT and other Continuum journals are available electronically and
                      it's a shame to see that the Journal for the Study of the Historical
                      Jesus does not yet have this.

                      Thanks
                      Mark
                      -----------------------------
                      Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                      Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                      University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 4381
                      Birmingham B15 2TT UK

                      http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre
                      http://NTGateway.com
                    • Bob Webb
                      Mark, Let me find out for you; I ll be back. Bob. Robert L. Webb Webb.Bob@sympatico.ca ... http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre http://NTGateway.com ...
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
                        Mark,

                        Let me find out for you; I'll be back.

                        Bob.

                        Robert L. Webb
                        Webb.Bob@...


                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Mark Goodacre [mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...]
                        > Sent: March 4, 2003 1:07 PM
                        > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: RE: [XTalk] Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus
                        >
                        >
                        > Bob -- will electronic access be available soon for the journal?
                        > JSNT and other Continuum journals are available electronically and
                        > it's a shame to see that the Journal for the Study of the Historical
                        > Jesus does not yet have this.
                        >
                        > Thanks
                        > Mark
                        > -----------------------------
                        > Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                        > Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                        > University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 4381
                        > Birmingham B15 2TT UK
                        >
                        http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre
                        http://NTGateway.com


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                      • Andrew Lloyd <a.lloyd2@ntlworld.com>
                        Some of us are already subscribers Loren! I d also like to take the chance to recommend this journal. Every single article in the first issue is valuable and a
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
                          Some of us are already subscribers Loren! I'd also like to take the
                          chance to recommend this journal. Every single article in the first
                          issue is valuable and a "cutting edge" (to use Bob's term) summary
                          of various matters of current interest in the historical Jesus
                          debate. Long may it continue at this high standard.

                          Andrew Lloyd (PhD Cand.)
                          Department of Biblical Studies
                          University of Sheffield, UK
                        • Steve Dingeldein
                          Here is the link for the journal http://www.continuumjournals.com/journals/index.asp?jref=31 Steve Dingeldein ... From: Loren Rosson To:
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
                            Here is the link for the journal

                            http://www.continuumjournals.com/journals/index.asp?jref=31

                            Steve Dingeldein

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Loren Rosson" <rossoiii@...>
                            To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:22 AM
                            Subject: [XTalk] Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus


                            > List members --
                            >
                            > I have received a free trial issue of The Journal for
                            > the Study of the Historical Jesus, and I must say the
                            > artciles therein are impressive. If the editorial
                            > board continues providing this level of quality, I may
                            > have to subscribe. It just so happens that Dale
                            > Allison kicks off with the first essay, which is
                            > titled "The Continuity between John and Jesus". It
                            > serves as a fine supplement to the required reading
                            > material for the upcoming Allison seminar.
                            >
                            > The ISSN for this publication is 1476-8690.
                            >
                            > Loren Rosson III
                            > Nashua NH
                            > rossoiii@...
                            >
                            >
                            > __________________________________________________
                            > Do you Yahoo!?
                            > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                            > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                            >
                            > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                            >
                            > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
                            crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > List managers may be contacted directly at:
                            crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Bob Webb
                            Mark, I have checked with the powers that be and the answer that I ve received is that the annual costs are more than £2300. Thus it will not be until at
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
                              Mark,

                              I have checked with "the powers that be" and the answer that I've received
                              is that the annual costs are more than £2300. Thus it will not be until at
                              least volume 3 that this would happen, and it would depend upon
                              subscriptions.

                              But I agree. I certainly support such a development.

                              Bob.

                              Robert L. Webb
                              Webb.Bob@...


                              > Bob -- will electronic access be available soon for the journal?
                              > JSNT and other Continuum journals are available electronically and
                              > it's a shame to see that the Journal for the Study of the Historical
                              > Jesus does not yet have this.
                              >
                              > Thanks
                              > Mark
                            • Loren Rosson
                              List -- A blockbuster of sorts is on the way. I just read a blurb for The Brother of Jesus: The Dramatic Story & Significance of the First Arhcaeological Link
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
                                List --

                                A blockbuster of sorts is on the way. I just read a
                                blurb for The Brother of Jesus: The Dramatic Story &
                                Significance of the First Arhcaeological Link to Jesus
                                and his Family, by Hershel Shanks and Ben Witherington
                                (ISBN 0-06-055660-9) in the March 3 issue of
                                Publisher's Weekly. The review describes the work as
                                "a well-argued and truly fascinating study of the
                                ossuary and its importance...particularly interesting
                                is the book's discussion of what the ossuary does for
                                Jewish Christian relations" [since James encouraged
                                Christians to retain aspects of their Jewish
                                heritage]. Shanks and Witherington should make
                                interesting bed-fellows.

                                Loren Rosson III
                                Nashua NH
                                rossoiii@...


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