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Lloyd Re: [XTalk] The kingdom of God: Did Jesus get it wrong?

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  • Bob Schacht
    ... Andrew, Isn t this pretty close to what Ed Sanders argues in The Historical Figure of Jesus? ... Probably depends on how you evaluate Sanders evidence.
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 2, 2003
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      At 01:50 PM 3/2/2003 +0000, Andrew Lloyd wrote:
      >In another online location I am currently pursuing a discussion
      >which involves an historical understanding of Jesus' favourite term
      >for that which he was preaching - the kingdom of God. ... In short
      >this reading, which I've just inadequately described, reads a Jesus
      >who, in his fundamental premise of timing is WRONG and Jesus'
      >mission is based almost entirely on a mistake he makes.

      Andrew,
      Isn't this pretty close to what Ed Sanders argues in The Historical Figure
      of Jesus?


      >What historical veracity might there be in this proposal of a mistaken
      >eschatological Jesus?

      Probably depends on how you evaluate Sanders' evidence.
      Bob


      >Andrew Lloyd (PhD Cand.)




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Steve Dingeldein
      Interesting discussion of Jesus apocalyptic claims. As a relative amateur I d be interested in what you folk have to say about Horsely comment in Jesus and
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 2, 2003
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        Interesting discussion of Jesus' apocalyptic claims. As a relative amateur
        I'd be interested in what you folk have to say about Horsely comment in
        Jesus and Empire, pp 80-81:

        "Recent liberal interpreters of Jesus are clearly uncomfortable with the
        judgmental side of Jesus' mission . . . . This is a dramatic departure from
        the earlier view made popular mainly by Albert Schweitzer of Jesus as an
        'apocalyptic' prophet who preached the end of the world. To modern Western
        sensitivities, however, the apocalyptic Jesus seems perilously close to
        being a deluded fanatic, since his predicitons of a presumed 'cosmic
        catastrophe' proved false. Some recent American interpreters have avoided
        this embarassing conclusion by rejecting as secondary any of Jesus' sayings
        that might seem 'apocalyptic' in tone or motif. This makes Jesus into an
        utterly unique historical figure - a historical impossibility, of course -
        different from both his Jewish contemporaries before him and hisown
        followers after him.

        Both the earlier picture of Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher and the more
        recent attempt to elimante apocalyptic elements are rooted in the modern
        scholarly construct of 'apocalyptic,' which is highly problematic. It is
        quesitonalbe whether this synthetic modern scholarly construct is applicable
        to any particular Jewish text, including those classified in the genre of
        'apocalypse.' More particularly, once we are more sensitive to metaphoric
        language and hyperbole, it is difficult to find any ancient Judean texts
        taht attest belief 'in the end of the world' or a 'cosmic catastrophe.' We
        need to abandon the modern concept of 'apocalyptic' and take a fresh look at
        the way the earlist Gospel documents portray Jesus' pronouncement of
        judgement."

        Steve Dingeldein
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon s earlier -- as it gives me a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be joining us in May
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 2, 2003
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          Steve Dingeldein wrote:

          > Interesting discussion of Jesus' apocalyptic claims. As a relative
          > amateur
          > I'd be interested in what you folk have to say about Horsely comment
          > in
          > Jesus and Empire, pp 80-81

          Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon's earlier -- as it gives me
          a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be joining
          us in May to do a Seminar on this very book.

          Yours,

          Jeffrey
          --

          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

          1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
          Chicago, IL 60626

          jgibson000@...



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gordon Raynal
          ... Jeffrey, Any invitations out to such as Brandon Scott, Dom or Burton Mack so that list members might have a new opportunity to engage folks who see things
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
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            >
            >Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon's earlier -- as it gives me
            >a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be joining
            >us in May to do a Seminar on this very book.

            Jeffrey,

            Any invitations out to such as Brandon Scott, Dom or Burton Mack so that
            list members might have a new opportunity to engage folks who see things a
            tad differently than such as Horsely and Allison? How about an invitation
            to such as Crossan, Mack, Saunders and Allison to have a methodological
            debate?

            Gordon Raynal
            Inman, SC
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... I have written to Mack previously about doing a seminar and/or participating in one/joining XTalk. He has no interest in doing so. I always let Dom know
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
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              Gordon Raynal wrote:

              >
              > >
              > >Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon's earlier -- as it gives
              > me
              > >a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be
              > joining
              > >us in May to do a Seminar on this very book.
              >
              > Jeffrey,
              >
              > Any invitations out to such as Brandon Scott, Dom or Burton Mack so
              > that
              > list members might have a new opportunity to engage folks who see
              > things a
              > tad differently than such as Horsely and Allison? How about an
              > invitation
              > to such as Crossan, Mack, Saunders and Allison to have a
              > methodological
              > debate?

              I have written to Mack previously about doing a seminar and/or
              participating in one/joining XTalk. He has no interest in doing so.

              I always let Dom know about the seminars. His participation is always
              contingent on time available to him.

              As to Saunders -- forgive me if I'm being more than usually obtuse, but
              do you mean Ed Sanders? If so, there's not much hope. He has noted to me
              privately that he is one of the worst e-mail corespondents on the
              planet.

              Look for the announcement on the Allison Seminar, as well as URLs to the
              material Dale wishes to be the subject matter of the discussion, later
              today.

              Yours,

              Jeffrey
              --

              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

              1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
              Chicago, IL 60626

              jgibson000@...



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bob Schacht
              ... Gordon, You seem to have forgotten that we ve *already* had seminars with Crossan, and I appreciate the invitations to Allison (and Horsley again) for
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
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                At 09:45 AM 3/3/2003 -0500, Gordon Raynal wrote:

                > >
                > >Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon's earlier -- as it gives me
                > >a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be joining
                > >us in May to do a Seminar on this very book.
                >
                >Jeffrey,
                >
                >Any invitations out to such as Brandon Scott, Dom or Burton Mack so that
                >list members might have a new opportunity to engage folks who see things a
                >tad differently than such as Horsely and Allison? How about an invitation
                >to such as Crossan, Mack, Saunders and Allison to have a methodological
                >debate?
                >
                >Gordon Raynal

                Gordon,
                You seem to have forgotten that we've *already* had seminars with Crossan,
                and I appreciate the invitations to Allison (and Horsley again) for
                balance. I believe the archives of these seminars are still accessible.
                Your dissing Allison (and Horsley) in advance (in previous posts, and by
                implication in this one) seems unfair and unscholarly. I can understand why
                you might want to line up scholars whose views you sympathize with, but
                please don't diss the others in the meanwhile. Instead, I think we should
                all be grateful to Jeffrey Gibson for the extra work he has done lining up
                seminar leaders. Thanks, Jeffrey!

                Bob
              • Gordon Raynal
                Thanks Jeffrey. I know this would be a big deal and they have their commitments. Maybe the HJ Group at SBL might arrange a big methodology forum day. But
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
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                  Thanks Jeffrey. I know this would be a big deal and they have their
                  commitments. Maybe the HJ Group at SBL might arrange a big methodology
                  forum day. But maybe the "round and round" will just go on. And yes, sorry
                  about misspelling Ed's name. My typing skills aren't always the best!

                  Gordon
                • Loren Rosson
                  List members -- I have received a free trial issue of The Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus, and I must say the artciles therein are impressive. If
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
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                    List members --

                    I have received a free trial issue of The Journal for
                    the Study of the Historical Jesus, and I must say the
                    artciles therein are impressive. If the editorial
                    board continues providing this level of quality, I may
                    have to subscribe. It just so happens that Dale
                    Allison kicks off with the first essay, which is
                    titled "The Continuity between John and Jesus". It
                    serves as a fine supplement to the required reading
                    material for the upcoming Allison seminar.

                    The ISSN for this publication is 1476-8690.

                    Loren Rosson III
                    Nashua NH
                    rossoiii@...


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                  • Bob Webb
                    Loren, Thanks for your positive assessment of the Journal. Can I state, however, that, while the editorial board members are starting the journal by each
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
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                      Loren,

                      Thanks for your positive assessment of the Journal.

                      Can I state, however, that, while the editorial board members are starting
                      the journal by each contributing a substantive new essay, the journal will
                      only be sustained by its readers and other life-of-Jesus scholars submitting
                      high-quality, cutting-edge essays.

                      So, those of you out there who are contributing scholars, I'm waiting to
                      hear from you!

                      Bob.

                      Robert L. Webb
                      Webb.Bob@...


                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Loren Rosson [mailto:rossoiii@...]
                      > Sent: March 4, 2003 10:22 AM
                      > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [XTalk] Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus
                      >
                      >
                      > List members --
                      >
                      > I have received a free trial issue of The Journal for
                      > the Study of the Historical Jesus, and I must say the
                      > artciles therein are impressive. If the editorial
                      > board continues providing this level of quality, I may
                      > have to subscribe. It just so happens that Dale
                      > Allison kicks off with the first essay, which is
                      > titled "The Continuity between John and Jesus". It
                      > serves as a fine supplement to the required reading
                      > material for the upcoming Allison seminar.
                      >
                      > The ISSN for this publication is 1476-8690.
                      >
                      > Loren Rosson III
                      > Nashua NH
                      > rossoiii@...
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
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                    • Mark Goodacre
                      Bob -- will electronic access be available soon for the journal? JSNT and other Continuum journals are available electronically and it s a shame to see that
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
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                        Bob -- will electronic access be available soon for the journal?
                        JSNT and other Continuum journals are available electronically and
                        it's a shame to see that the Journal for the Study of the Historical
                        Jesus does not yet have this.

                        Thanks
                        Mark
                        -----------------------------
                        Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                        Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                        University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 4381
                        Birmingham B15 2TT UK

                        http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre
                        http://NTGateway.com
                      • Bob Webb
                        Mark, Let me find out for you; I ll be back. Bob. Robert L. Webb Webb.Bob@sympatico.ca ... http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre http://NTGateway.com ...
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
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                          Mark,

                          Let me find out for you; I'll be back.

                          Bob.

                          Robert L. Webb
                          Webb.Bob@...


                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Mark Goodacre [mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...]
                          > Sent: March 4, 2003 1:07 PM
                          > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: RE: [XTalk] Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus
                          >
                          >
                          > Bob -- will electronic access be available soon for the journal?
                          > JSNT and other Continuum journals are available electronically and
                          > it's a shame to see that the Journal for the Study of the Historical
                          > Jesus does not yet have this.
                          >
                          > Thanks
                          > Mark
                          > -----------------------------
                          > Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                          > Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                          > University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 4381
                          > Birmingham B15 2TT UK
                          >
                          http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre
                          http://NTGateway.com


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                        • Andrew Lloyd <a.lloyd2@ntlworld.com>
                          Some of us are already subscribers Loren! I d also like to take the chance to recommend this journal. Every single article in the first issue is valuable and a
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
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                            Some of us are already subscribers Loren! I'd also like to take the
                            chance to recommend this journal. Every single article in the first
                            issue is valuable and a "cutting edge" (to use Bob's term) summary
                            of various matters of current interest in the historical Jesus
                            debate. Long may it continue at this high standard.

                            Andrew Lloyd (PhD Cand.)
                            Department of Biblical Studies
                            University of Sheffield, UK
                          • Steve Dingeldein
                            Here is the link for the journal http://www.continuumjournals.com/journals/index.asp?jref=31 Steve Dingeldein ... From: Loren Rosson To:
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
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                              Here is the link for the journal

                              http://www.continuumjournals.com/journals/index.asp?jref=31

                              Steve Dingeldein

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Loren Rosson" <rossoiii@...>
                              To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:22 AM
                              Subject: [XTalk] Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus


                              > List members --
                              >
                              > I have received a free trial issue of The Journal for
                              > the Study of the Historical Jesus, and I must say the
                              > artciles therein are impressive. If the editorial
                              > board continues providing this level of quality, I may
                              > have to subscribe. It just so happens that Dale
                              > Allison kicks off with the first essay, which is
                              > titled "The Continuity between John and Jesus". It
                              > serves as a fine supplement to the required reading
                              > material for the upcoming Allison seminar.
                              >
                              > The ISSN for this publication is 1476-8690.
                              >
                              > Loren Rosson III
                              > Nashua NH
                              > rossoiii@...
                              >
                              >
                              > __________________________________________________
                              > Do you Yahoo!?
                              > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                              > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                              >
                              > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                              >
                              > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
                              crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > List managers may be contacted directly at:
                              crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Bob Webb
                              Mark, I have checked with the powers that be and the answer that I ve received is that the annual costs are more than £2300. Thus it will not be until at
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
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                                Mark,

                                I have checked with "the powers that be" and the answer that I've received
                                is that the annual costs are more than £2300. Thus it will not be until at
                                least volume 3 that this would happen, and it would depend upon
                                subscriptions.

                                But I agree. I certainly support such a development.

                                Bob.

                                Robert L. Webb
                                Webb.Bob@...


                                > Bob -- will electronic access be available soon for the journal?
                                > JSNT and other Continuum journals are available electronically and
                                > it's a shame to see that the Journal for the Study of the Historical
                                > Jesus does not yet have this.
                                >
                                > Thanks
                                > Mark
                              • Loren Rosson
                                List -- A blockbuster of sorts is on the way. I just read a blurb for The Brother of Jesus: The Dramatic Story & Significance of the First Arhcaeological Link
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
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                                  List --

                                  A blockbuster of sorts is on the way. I just read a
                                  blurb for The Brother of Jesus: The Dramatic Story &
                                  Significance of the First Arhcaeological Link to Jesus
                                  and his Family, by Hershel Shanks and Ben Witherington
                                  (ISBN 0-06-055660-9) in the March 3 issue of
                                  Publisher's Weekly. The review describes the work as
                                  "a well-argued and truly fascinating study of the
                                  ossuary and its importance...particularly interesting
                                  is the book's discussion of what the ossuary does for
                                  Jewish Christian relations" [since James encouraged
                                  Christians to retain aspects of their Jewish
                                  heritage]. Shanks and Witherington should make
                                  interesting bed-fellows.

                                  Loren Rosson III
                                  Nashua NH
                                  rossoiii@...


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