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Re: [XTalk] The kingdom of God: Did Jesus get it wrong?

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  • Loren Rosson
    ... Andrew, In a word, much. As I read the evidence, it is more than likely that Jesus expected to witness divine intervention and the establishment of the
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 2, 2003
      Andrew wrote:

      >What historical veracity might there be in this
      >proposal of a mistaken eschatological Jesus?

      Andrew,

      In a word, much. As I read the evidence, it is more
      than likely that Jesus expected to witness divine
      intervention and the establishment of the kingdom of
      God, which would abolish injustices and restore the
      glory of Israel. Those who remove eschatology from the
      HJ equation -- or worse, who like to redefine
      eschatology in such a way that it means almost
      anything (and thus nothing) -- are, in my view,
      profoundly wrong. This doesn't necessarily mean that
      his entire mission was mistaken (though of course it
      could mean that, if one is unable to extract any
      significant "value" from the rest of the data, shades
      of our earlier discussion), but that seems to be a
      subject going beyond the bounds of this list. In any
      case, you are tackling one of the big questions which
      have plagued HJ studies for ages. Don't expect any
      resolution to it on this list! But for what it's
      worth, I'll offer the following:

      A while back some XTalkers (including myself)
      copycatted Ed Sanders by coming up with lists of
      "basic facts" about HJ. My own list resembled the
      following:

      1. Born and raised an artisan in Galilee, with little
      or no ascribed honor.

      2. Became a follower of John the Baptist.

      3. Eventually broke with the Baptist, retaining
      allegiance to, and at the same time revising, his
      vision of the apocalyptic kingdom of God.

      -- Having no ascribed honor, he acquired honor in
      public by:

      4. Exorcising the mad and healing the sick.

      5. Telling powerfully suggestive (and subversive)
      parables.

      6. Besting and outwitting various opponents in
      challenge-and-riposte. (I.e. He was a master of
      insults, counter-challenges, counter-questions,
      rhetoric-rebuttal, and scriptural one-upsmanship.)

      7. As a result of 4-6, he became hailed as
      a prophetic messiah, acquired a following, and
      spearheaded
      his own kingdom movement.

      8. Had many followers, but 12 specially close
      disciples.

      9. Demonstrated in the temple during Passover and was
      arrested shortly after.

      10. Executed by the Romans as would-be "King of the
      Judeans".

      With regard to my (2) and (3), people like Crossan and
      Borg have been fond of asserting that in place of
      fasting Jesus feasted in the here-and-now (Mk
      2:18-22/Mt 9:14-17/Lk 5:33-39), thereby supposedly
      repudiating future eschatology. Perhaps a more
      cautious reading of the evidence would imply that
      Jesus was rejecting fasting **in anticipation of** the
      kingdom's full disclosure in the near future, when
      everyone would feast in the messianic banquet (Mt
      8:11-12/Lk 13:28-29).

      I see more than enough which indicates that Jesus
      retained apocalyptic expectations -- praying for the
      kingdom to come, prophesying the temple's destruction,
      and the passage you mention (Mk 9:1/Mt 16:28/Lk 9:27:
      "There are some standing here who will not taste death
      until they see the kingdom of God") are some obvious
      ones. The various attempts to explain away Mk 9:1/Mt
      16:28/Lk 9:27 as either (a) a creation of the early
      church (thus, for example, Meier in A Marginal Jew Vol
      II, pp 341-348) or (b) not really saying what it means
      nor meaning what it says (thus, for example, Chilton
      in Pure Kingdom, pp 62-65) are to me unconvincing. I
      single out Meier and Chilton not because they make
      such poor arguments, but rather because they make the
      best arguments.

      Chilton's is a fascinating one which shows his fluency
      in Semitic usages and grammar. As a preliminary, he
      argues that the phrase, "those who will not taste
      death" in Judaism refers simply to people who never
      die (like Enoch and Elijah); he then advances the
      claim that "x will not happen until y" is a form of
      speech implying that both parts of the statement are
      valid. He compares Jesus' statement in Mk 9:1/Mt
      16:28/Lk 9:27 to God's in Gen 28:15: "I will not
      depart from you until I have done that of which I have
      spoken." Just as God is really saying, "I will never
      leave you **and** I will do what I have promised", so
      Jesus is saying, "Immortals never die **and** the
      future coming of the kingdom is as certain as their
      immortality" (see Pure Kingdom, pp 64-65). But it's
      hardly clear that the phrase "those who will not taste
      death" always refers to immortals, as Chilton claims;
      and I find the parallel with Gen 28:15 to be rather
      slippery if ingenious. But it does illustrate the
      lengths to which people will go in order to avoid the
      embarassing conclusion that Jesus may have been
      mistaken about the apocalyptic timetable. Meier
      rightly anticipates the objection to his own argument
      about Mk 9:1/Mt 16:28/Lk 9:27 being a creation of the
      early church: "How convenient! This way Jesus was not
      mistaken about the time of the kingdom's arrival, and
      one avoids all sorts of uncomfortable theological
      questions." (p 347) Chilton's argument is pretty
      convenient too, if you ask me.

      Loren Rosson III
      Nashua NH
      rossoiii@...


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    • Bob Schacht
      ... Andrew, Isn t this pretty close to what Ed Sanders argues in The Historical Figure of Jesus? ... Probably depends on how you evaluate Sanders evidence.
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 2, 2003
        At 01:50 PM 3/2/2003 +0000, Andrew Lloyd wrote:
        >In another online location I am currently pursuing a discussion
        >which involves an historical understanding of Jesus' favourite term
        >for that which he was preaching - the kingdom of God. ... In short
        >this reading, which I've just inadequately described, reads a Jesus
        >who, in his fundamental premise of timing is WRONG and Jesus'
        >mission is based almost entirely on a mistake he makes.

        Andrew,
        Isn't this pretty close to what Ed Sanders argues in The Historical Figure
        of Jesus?


        >What historical veracity might there be in this proposal of a mistaken
        >eschatological Jesus?

        Probably depends on how you evaluate Sanders' evidence.
        Bob


        >Andrew Lloyd (PhD Cand.)




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Steve Dingeldein
        Interesting discussion of Jesus apocalyptic claims. As a relative amateur I d be interested in what you folk have to say about Horsely comment in Jesus and
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 2, 2003
          Interesting discussion of Jesus' apocalyptic claims. As a relative amateur
          I'd be interested in what you folk have to say about Horsely comment in
          Jesus and Empire, pp 80-81:

          "Recent liberal interpreters of Jesus are clearly uncomfortable with the
          judgmental side of Jesus' mission . . . . This is a dramatic departure from
          the earlier view made popular mainly by Albert Schweitzer of Jesus as an
          'apocalyptic' prophet who preached the end of the world. To modern Western
          sensitivities, however, the apocalyptic Jesus seems perilously close to
          being a deluded fanatic, since his predicitons of a presumed 'cosmic
          catastrophe' proved false. Some recent American interpreters have avoided
          this embarassing conclusion by rejecting as secondary any of Jesus' sayings
          that might seem 'apocalyptic' in tone or motif. This makes Jesus into an
          utterly unique historical figure - a historical impossibility, of course -
          different from both his Jewish contemporaries before him and hisown
          followers after him.

          Both the earlier picture of Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher and the more
          recent attempt to elimante apocalyptic elements are rooted in the modern
          scholarly construct of 'apocalyptic,' which is highly problematic. It is
          quesitonalbe whether this synthetic modern scholarly construct is applicable
          to any particular Jewish text, including those classified in the genre of
          'apocalypse.' More particularly, once we are more sensitive to metaphoric
          language and hyperbole, it is difficult to find any ancient Judean texts
          taht attest belief 'in the end of the world' or a 'cosmic catastrophe.' We
          need to abandon the modern concept of 'apocalyptic' and take a fresh look at
          the way the earlist Gospel documents portray Jesus' pronouncement of
          judgement."

          Steve Dingeldein
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon s earlier -- as it gives me a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be joining us in May
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 2, 2003
            Steve Dingeldein wrote:

            > Interesting discussion of Jesus' apocalyptic claims. As a relative
            > amateur
            > I'd be interested in what you folk have to say about Horsely comment
            > in
            > Jesus and Empire, pp 80-81

            Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon's earlier -- as it gives me
            a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be joining
            us in May to do a Seminar on this very book.

            Yours,

            Jeffrey
            --

            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

            1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
            Chicago, IL 60626

            jgibson000@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Gordon Raynal
            ... Jeffrey, Any invitations out to such as Brandon Scott, Dom or Burton Mack so that list members might have a new opportunity to engage folks who see things
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
              >
              >Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon's earlier -- as it gives me
              >a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be joining
              >us in May to do a Seminar on this very book.

              Jeffrey,

              Any invitations out to such as Brandon Scott, Dom or Burton Mack so that
              list members might have a new opportunity to engage folks who see things a
              tad differently than such as Horsely and Allison? How about an invitation
              to such as Crossan, Mack, Saunders and Allison to have a methodological
              debate?

              Gordon Raynal
              Inman, SC
            • Jeffrey B. Gibson
              ... I have written to Mack previously about doing a seminar and/or participating in one/joining XTalk. He has no interest in doing so. I always let Dom know
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
                Gordon Raynal wrote:

                >
                > >
                > >Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon's earlier -- as it gives
                > me
                > >a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be
                > joining
                > >us in May to do a Seminar on this very book.
                >
                > Jeffrey,
                >
                > Any invitations out to such as Brandon Scott, Dom or Burton Mack so
                > that
                > list members might have a new opportunity to engage folks who see
                > things a
                > tad differently than such as Horsely and Allison? How about an
                > invitation
                > to such as Crossan, Mack, Saunders and Allison to have a
                > methodological
                > debate?

                I have written to Mack previously about doing a seminar and/or
                participating in one/joining XTalk. He has no interest in doing so.

                I always let Dom know about the seminars. His participation is always
                contingent on time available to him.

                As to Saunders -- forgive me if I'm being more than usually obtuse, but
                do you mean Ed Sanders? If so, there's not much hope. He has noted to me
                privately that he is one of the worst e-mail corespondents on the
                planet.

                Look for the announcement on the Allison Seminar, as well as URLs to the
                material Dale wishes to be the subject matter of the discussion, later
                today.

                Yours,

                Jeffrey
                --

                Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

                1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                Chicago, IL 60626

                jgibson000@...



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bob Schacht
                ... Gordon, You seem to have forgotten that we ve *already* had seminars with Crossan, and I appreciate the invitations to Allison (and Horsley again) for
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
                  At 09:45 AM 3/3/2003 -0500, Gordon Raynal wrote:

                  > >
                  > >Another serendipitous message -- like Gordon's earlier -- as it gives me
                  > >a good reason to remind List members that Dick Horsley will be joining
                  > >us in May to do a Seminar on this very book.
                  >
                  >Jeffrey,
                  >
                  >Any invitations out to such as Brandon Scott, Dom or Burton Mack so that
                  >list members might have a new opportunity to engage folks who see things a
                  >tad differently than such as Horsely and Allison? How about an invitation
                  >to such as Crossan, Mack, Saunders and Allison to have a methodological
                  >debate?
                  >
                  >Gordon Raynal

                  Gordon,
                  You seem to have forgotten that we've *already* had seminars with Crossan,
                  and I appreciate the invitations to Allison (and Horsley again) for
                  balance. I believe the archives of these seminars are still accessible.
                  Your dissing Allison (and Horsley) in advance (in previous posts, and by
                  implication in this one) seems unfair and unscholarly. I can understand why
                  you might want to line up scholars whose views you sympathize with, but
                  please don't diss the others in the meanwhile. Instead, I think we should
                  all be grateful to Jeffrey Gibson for the extra work he has done lining up
                  seminar leaders. Thanks, Jeffrey!

                  Bob
                • Gordon Raynal
                  Thanks Jeffrey. I know this would be a big deal and they have their commitments. Maybe the HJ Group at SBL might arrange a big methodology forum day. But
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
                    Thanks Jeffrey. I know this would be a big deal and they have their
                    commitments. Maybe the HJ Group at SBL might arrange a big methodology
                    forum day. But maybe the "round and round" will just go on. And yes, sorry
                    about misspelling Ed's name. My typing skills aren't always the best!

                    Gordon
                  • Loren Rosson
                    List members -- I have received a free trial issue of The Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus, and I must say the artciles therein are impressive. If
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
                      List members --

                      I have received a free trial issue of The Journal for
                      the Study of the Historical Jesus, and I must say the
                      artciles therein are impressive. If the editorial
                      board continues providing this level of quality, I may
                      have to subscribe. It just so happens that Dale
                      Allison kicks off with the first essay, which is
                      titled "The Continuity between John and Jesus". It
                      serves as a fine supplement to the required reading
                      material for the upcoming Allison seminar.

                      The ISSN for this publication is 1476-8690.

                      Loren Rosson III
                      Nashua NH
                      rossoiii@...


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                    • Bob Webb
                      Loren, Thanks for your positive assessment of the Journal. Can I state, however, that, while the editorial board members are starting the journal by each
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
                        Loren,

                        Thanks for your positive assessment of the Journal.

                        Can I state, however, that, while the editorial board members are starting
                        the journal by each contributing a substantive new essay, the journal will
                        only be sustained by its readers and other life-of-Jesus scholars submitting
                        high-quality, cutting-edge essays.

                        So, those of you out there who are contributing scholars, I'm waiting to
                        hear from you!

                        Bob.

                        Robert L. Webb
                        Webb.Bob@...


                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Loren Rosson [mailto:rossoiii@...]
                        > Sent: March 4, 2003 10:22 AM
                        > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [XTalk] Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus
                        >
                        >
                        > List members --
                        >
                        > I have received a free trial issue of The Journal for
                        > the Study of the Historical Jesus, and I must say the
                        > artciles therein are impressive. If the editorial
                        > board continues providing this level of quality, I may
                        > have to subscribe. It just so happens that Dale
                        > Allison kicks off with the first essay, which is
                        > titled "The Continuity between John and Jesus". It
                        > serves as a fine supplement to the required reading
                        > material for the upcoming Allison seminar.
                        >
                        > The ISSN for this publication is 1476-8690.
                        >
                        > Loren Rosson III
                        > Nashua NH
                        > rossoiii@...
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
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                      • Mark Goodacre
                        Bob -- will electronic access be available soon for the journal? JSNT and other Continuum journals are available electronically and it s a shame to see that
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
                          Bob -- will electronic access be available soon for the journal?
                          JSNT and other Continuum journals are available electronically and
                          it's a shame to see that the Journal for the Study of the Historical
                          Jesus does not yet have this.

                          Thanks
                          Mark
                          -----------------------------
                          Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                          Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                          University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 4381
                          Birmingham B15 2TT UK

                          http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre
                          http://NTGateway.com
                        • Bob Webb
                          Mark, Let me find out for you; I ll be back. Bob. Robert L. Webb Webb.Bob@sympatico.ca ... http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre http://NTGateway.com ...
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
                            Mark,

                            Let me find out for you; I'll be back.

                            Bob.

                            Robert L. Webb
                            Webb.Bob@...


                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Mark Goodacre [mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...]
                            > Sent: March 4, 2003 1:07 PM
                            > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: RE: [XTalk] Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus
                            >
                            >
                            > Bob -- will electronic access be available soon for the journal?
                            > JSNT and other Continuum journals are available electronically and
                            > it's a shame to see that the Journal for the Study of the Historical
                            > Jesus does not yet have this.
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            > Mark
                            > -----------------------------
                            > Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                            > Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                            > University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 4381
                            > Birmingham B15 2TT UK
                            >
                            http://www.theology.bham.ac.uk/goodacre
                            http://NTGateway.com


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                          • Andrew Lloyd <a.lloyd2@ntlworld.com>
                            Some of us are already subscribers Loren! I d also like to take the chance to recommend this journal. Every single article in the first issue is valuable and a
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
                              Some of us are already subscribers Loren! I'd also like to take the
                              chance to recommend this journal. Every single article in the first
                              issue is valuable and a "cutting edge" (to use Bob's term) summary
                              of various matters of current interest in the historical Jesus
                              debate. Long may it continue at this high standard.

                              Andrew Lloyd (PhD Cand.)
                              Department of Biblical Studies
                              University of Sheffield, UK
                            • Steve Dingeldein
                              Here is the link for the journal http://www.continuumjournals.com/journals/index.asp?jref=31 Steve Dingeldein ... From: Loren Rosson To:
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
                                Here is the link for the journal

                                http://www.continuumjournals.com/journals/index.asp?jref=31

                                Steve Dingeldein

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Loren Rosson" <rossoiii@...>
                                To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:22 AM
                                Subject: [XTalk] Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus


                                > List members --
                                >
                                > I have received a free trial issue of The Journal for
                                > the Study of the Historical Jesus, and I must say the
                                > artciles therein are impressive. If the editorial
                                > board continues providing this level of quality, I may
                                > have to subscribe. It just so happens that Dale
                                > Allison kicks off with the first essay, which is
                                > titled "The Continuity between John and Jesus". It
                                > serves as a fine supplement to the required reading
                                > material for the upcoming Allison seminar.
                                >
                                > The ISSN for this publication is 1476-8690.
                                >
                                > Loren Rosson III
                                > Nashua NH
                                > rossoiii@...
                                >
                                >
                                > __________________________________________________
                                > Do you Yahoo!?
                                > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                                > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                >
                                > The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
                                >
                                > To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
                                crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > List managers may be contacted directly at:
                                crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Bob Webb
                                Mark, I have checked with the powers that be and the answer that I ve received is that the annual costs are more than £2300. Thus it will not be until at
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
                                  Mark,

                                  I have checked with "the powers that be" and the answer that I've received
                                  is that the annual costs are more than £2300. Thus it will not be until at
                                  least volume 3 that this would happen, and it would depend upon
                                  subscriptions.

                                  But I agree. I certainly support such a development.

                                  Bob.

                                  Robert L. Webb
                                  Webb.Bob@...


                                  > Bob -- will electronic access be available soon for the journal?
                                  > JSNT and other Continuum journals are available electronically and
                                  > it's a shame to see that the Journal for the Study of the Historical
                                  > Jesus does not yet have this.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks
                                  > Mark
                                • Loren Rosson
                                  List -- A blockbuster of sorts is on the way. I just read a blurb for The Brother of Jesus: The Dramatic Story & Significance of the First Arhcaeological Link
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
                                    List --

                                    A blockbuster of sorts is on the way. I just read a
                                    blurb for The Brother of Jesus: The Dramatic Story &
                                    Significance of the First Arhcaeological Link to Jesus
                                    and his Family, by Hershel Shanks and Ben Witherington
                                    (ISBN 0-06-055660-9) in the March 3 issue of
                                    Publisher's Weekly. The review describes the work as
                                    "a well-argued and truly fascinating study of the
                                    ossuary and its importance...particularly interesting
                                    is the book's discussion of what the ossuary does for
                                    Jewish Christian relations" [since James encouraged
                                    Christians to retain aspects of their Jewish
                                    heritage]. Shanks and Witherington should make
                                    interesting bed-fellows.

                                    Loren Rosson III
                                    Nashua NH
                                    rossoiii@...


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