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Re: [XTalk] Re: "Angels" in Mark 13:27

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  • Crispin H.T. Fletcher-Louis
    Jacob, ... Thanks for alerting the listers to the existence of an alternative scholarly view! (though the careful reader will note that, as far as I can
    Message 1 of 104 , Mar 1 7:32 AM
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      Jacob,


      On 25/2/03 5:29 pm, "Jacob Knee" <jknee@...> wrote:

      > For a slightly different take on this material you may also want to look at:
      >
      > Richard Bauckham, 'The Throne of God and the Worship of Jesus' in Carey C.
      > Newman, James Davila, Gladys S. Lewis (eds.), The Jewish Roots of
      > Christological Monotheism (Leiden: Brill, 1999)
      > Peter R. Carrell, Jesus and the angels: Angelology and christology of the
      > Apocalypse of John (SNTSMS 95; Cambridge: CUP 1997)
      > Timo Eskola, Messiah and Throne, (WUNT 2.142; Tübingen: Mohr-Siebeck, 2001)
      > Loren T. Stuckenbruck, Angel Veneration and Christology (WUNT 2.70;
      > Tübingen: Mohr-Siebeck, 1995)

      Thanks for alerting the listers to the existence of an alternative scholarly
      view! (though the careful reader will note that, as far as I can remember,
      apart from brief comments in Eskola, none of the above literature interacts
      with my work. (Off course two of the publications are earlier than both of
      my books).
      >
      > If I can ask Crispin a completely unrelated question - what do you make of
      > Chris Rowland's suggestion that John the Baptist is an angelomorphic figure
      > in the Gospel of Matthew?

      Immediate thoughts: I think it is highly likely that JB is thought in
      angelomorphic terms in the NT (not just Matthew). This is inevitable if you
      think JB is Elijah come back - as some clearly did. It is obviously based on
      Jesus' belief that JB fulfils Mal 3:1/Exod 23:20-21. It also correlates well
      with the fact that JB is a priest and it is priests who, far more than
      anyone else, were deemed to have an angelic or divine identity. The language
      in John's prologue is perhaps quite happy with JB's pre-existence (1:6).
      JB's use of Isaiah 40:3 would PERHAPS imply that JB believed that he had
      been taken up to the divine council (were transformation from mortal to
      angelic is normal in our period). I'm inclined to think there may be truth
      in the view of Chilton (Rabbi Jesus) that JB was interested in an early form
      of merkabah mysticism and that this nurtured Jesus' own spirituality.

      All this is important because it puts the lie to the old argument that, in
      for example Luke 7:34 the Son of Man's COMING cannot mean a cosmic coming
      from pre-existence to the earth since the same language is used of JB's
      coming in Luke 7:33. Bultmann was right all along that this coming language
      inevitably evokes a pre-existent cosmic perspective. But pre-existence does
      NOT necessarily mean incarnation (in the full sense) as is so often assumed
      (by e.g. Dunn CHRISTOLOGY IN THE MAKING).

      What do you think about Rowland's suggestion?

      Crispin.



      >
      > Best wishes,
      > Jacob Knee
      > University of Gloucestershire
      > Ph.D candidate
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Crispin H.T. Fletcher-Louis
      > [mailto:crispin.fletcher-louis@...]
      > Sent: 22 February 2003 16:42
      > To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [XTalk] Re: "Angels" in Mark 13:27
      >
      > And then you might find the following recent discussions call into serious
      > question your assumption:
      >
      > C. A. Gieschen, Angelomorphic Christology: Antecedents and Early Evidence
      > (AGAJU 42; Leiden: Brill, 1998).
      > C. H. T. Fletcher-Louis, Luke-Acts: Angels, Christology and Soteriology
      > (WUNT 2.94; Tübingen: Mohr-Siebeck, 1997) esp. pp. 109-250.
      > W. Horbury, Jewish Messianism and the Cult of Christ (London: SCM, 1998).
      > Esp. ch. 3.
      > C. H. T. Fletcher-Louis, All the Glory of Adam: Liturgical Anthropology in
      > the Dead Sea Scrolls (STDJ 42; Leiden: Brill, 2002).
      >
      > Yours
      > Crispin Fletcher-Louis
      >
      >
      >
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    • Crispin H.T. Fletcher-Louis
      Don t know what to do with Lev 11 on Locusts - certainly interesting. Manna in the wilderness certainly must be related somehow to the honey JB eats. And, yes,
      Message 104 of 104 , Mar 11 9:02 AM
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        Don't know what to do with Lev 11 on Locusts - certainly interesting.

        Manna in the wilderness certainly must be related somehow to the honey JB
        eats. And, yes, this is not incompatible with the angelomorphic interp. of
        the honey given that the Israelites ate the "bread of angels" in the
        wilderness (Ps 78:25, and cf. the use of Ezek 16 for Passover in rabbinic
        tradition).
        On all this there are helpful references in: D. Goodman, "Do Angels Eat?,"
        JJS 37 (1986) 160-70.

        Crispin

        On 11/3/03 1:07 pm, "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...> wrote:

        > Mike inquired about the locusts and wild honey that
        > John the Baptist is reported to have eaten.
        >
        > Wouldn't the initial significance of this be that it
        > recalls the covenant time of the desert wanderings of
        > the Israelites? John the Baptist, after all, calls for
        > covenant renewal, doesn't he?
        >
        > As I recall, the locust was acceptable as a kosher
        > food, unlike other creeping things. Leviticus 11:10
        > (or 10:11?) describes this. (I'm not near a Bible at
        > the moment and cannot check.) Is this exception a
        > significant point?
        >
        > At any rate, a reference to the time of the covenant
        > doesn't exclude angelomorphic aspects, of course.
        >
        > Jeffery Hodges
        >
        > =====
        > Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
        > Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
        > 447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
        > Yangsandong 411
        > South Korea
        >
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