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Re: [XTalk] Re: Dating Paul

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  • Gordon Raynal
    Hi Mike, Sorry for the confusion. Let me go at it like this... 1. The obvious... the inner circle of the charter members of an organization/ movement are
    Message 1 of 38 , Feb 2, 2003
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      Hi Mike,

      Sorry for the confusion. Let me go at it like this...
      1. The obvious... "the inner circle" of the charter members of an
      organization/ movement are what "gets the show off the ground." If you have
      read my past notes on the way to historically conceive the earliest era I
      understand that in terms of a gathering/ networking of a group of Hebraic
      folk rooted in a particular core understanding of that heritage. In the
      years circa 28 to 30 C.E. those key folks effected a beginning social
      reality called (evidently) "the Way." Martha, Mary and Lazarus were among
      those remembered by not only name, but in the case of Martha and Mary action
      and dialogue. (Now don't jump here to the conclusion that I'm simply
      accepting the later kerygmatic stories as special event remembrances as they
      are written. I'm not!).
      2. In relation to what I sent I think that this was a house centered
      organization and not a gathering of itinerants/ homeless folks/ whatever.
      If one looks across the gospels we find mention of homes of the charter
      folks where the meal fellowship was shared and the mention of particular
      "hometowns:" Levi's in Capernaum and the house of Peter's wife's mother, and
      then Simon and Andrew from Bethsaida (originally/ still? at the beginning
      time), one Simon from Cana, Mary of Magdala and so on. Included in terms of
      homes where table fellowship was shared was the home of Martha, Mary and
      Lazarus in Bethany. (The Johannine literature will highlight this
      relationship across 2 chapters of that Gospel.) But what I want to note is
      that these two sisters are not only remembered by name, but by town, home
      and hospitality (place and central shared praxis of the movment).
      3. So you will understand, I do think the mission discourse and the
      aphorisms about "going" and "following" are, indeed, "mission discourse
      words." That is to say, the first part of this "going" was to establish a
      network, and then on the basis of that, to do as the mission discourse
      says... spread "the news/ministry." From what I can tell the key figures of
      the northern center (namely Capernaum) were such figures as Jesus, Levi,
      James and John and Peter's mother-in-law:)! Maybe Peter was "from
      Capernaum" at the beginning of the formative period, but as John makes clear
      that Peter and Andrew were from Bethsaida, I wonder if Peter didn't, so to
      speak," inherit Jesus' house (that is to say the Capernaum network center)
      after Jesus was gone. Just can't tell, but that may be the significance of
      the movement of the story telling. At any rate Mary, Martha, Lazarus' home
      is indeed "a charter home."
      4. Lastly... as regards words... the modus operandi of the sort of wisdom
      reflections that we see in the earliest literature is a conversational kind
      of communication. I think the collection of some 20 parables belong to
      Jesus. I think that the aphorisms that are in that basic red/pink database
      of the Jesus Seminar represents the wisdom sharing of that earliest era, but
      I'm not quite as certain as they are that the aphorisms are all from Jesus,
      per se. (just for your thought... I can imagine Jesus telling "Good Sam,"
      and one of the folks puzzling, "Love your enemies?," and Jesus responding
      back, "Love your enemies," and the conversations and reflections taking off
      from there.) So... I think the women were in on this just as much as the men
      and I think in that collection we hear the voices of that earliest set of

      so... lives belonging, homes participating, table practices taken up, words
      shared, reflected upon and more spoken. Now with the final tweak... of a
      nice early barb... "The first shall be last;)!" kept in mind... that the
      very nature of this grouping was not about personal power moves,
      nevertheless... because of the likes of Mary and Martha... Paul not only had
      something to first despise, later join... but again... the foundations of a
      social model and collection of central, charting ideas/affirmations to work

      Hope this helps.

    • mwgrondin <mwgrondin@comcast.net>
      (from the site you mentioned): Half Shekel - the currency of the Jerusalem Temple At the Great Temple in Jerusalem the annual tax levied on Jews was 1/2
      Message 38 of 38 , Feb 8, 2003
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        (from the site you mentioned):
        "Half Shekel - the currency of the Jerusalem Temple
        At the Great Temple in Jerusalem the annual tax levied on Jews
        was 1/2 shekel per male. The 1/2 shekel and shekel were ... the
        only coins accepted by the temple."


        I'm confused. The Tyrean half-shekel contained an image of Melqarth,
        yet it was acceptable at the Temple? Practically speaking, it may
        have been the most stable non-Roman currency, but I was under the
        impression that the reason the Herodian coinage - as well the shekel
        minted 66-70 by Jewish revolutionaries - contained no human image,
        was a supposed ban on "graven images". What's the story? Money win
        out over principle, no such principle, or was the principle not so

        Mike Grondin
        Mt. Clemens, MI
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