Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XTalk] Nails for the crucifixion

Expand Messages
  • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
    In a message dated 1/13/2003 12:22:32 PM Central Standard Time, DaGoi@aol.com ... That s a good question, which is my excuse for taking so long to answer. I ve
    Message 1 of 109 , Jan 16, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      In a message dated 1/13/2003 12:22:32 PM Central Standard Time, DaGoi@...
      writes:

      >
      > In a message dated 1/13/3 9:02:58 AM, Ed wrote:
      >
      > <<
      > One other aspect we should not overlook in the case of the ancients is that
      >
      > most processed metals were believed to have magical properties. The same
      > is
      > true of commodities like wine and cheese, and anything else that underwent
      > incomprehensible change in its manufacture. If you have no scientific
      > understanding of metallurgy, or of milk enzymes, or of the transformation
      > of
      > sugars to ethanol, it all looks like magic to you. We know that smiths
      > performed incantations over their work at least as late as the 16th
      > century,
      > and "cheese magic" persists in some rural areas in Europe even today. I
      > expect that the magical associations of ironworking had something to do
      > with
      > the healing properties attributed to these nails, although of course the
      > main
      > source for the beliefs would come from superstitions surrounding death by
      > execution (which also persisted well into the 20th C.)
      > >>
      >
      > Very interesting. Implied here of course is the xian transformation of
      > wine
      > to blood. The Jews officially had a prohibition against such
      > superstitions,
      > but it does crop up here and there even among them.
      > Metalurgy seems pretty straightforward though once the ores are
      > extracted. Tempering is not really such an extensive change as the
      > biochemical changes of alcohol or cheese (of which I know nothing about -
      > how
      > far does cheese go back, and did the ancient Jews have cheese?). I forget
      > the history of steels and when they found that some charcoal added to iron
      > made it harder (this may seem magical due to the rather weak condition that
      >
      > carbon seems to present in its usual end state) and never was aware of the
      > history of the making of carbonized casings (applied today by cyanide
      > baths).
      > I can guess but have never looked into the alchemy of metals being tinged
      > with the occult. Are there any studies for something like this, like the
      > magical feelings of peoples for metalurgical studies?
      >
      >

      That's a good question, which is my excuse for taking so long to answer.
      I've found a passle of resources on specific traditions, but no comprehensive
      study. Of course, it's surprising the things we take for granted that the
      ancients attributed to magic or preternatural causes--the transformation of
      water to ice, for instance. One resource that's germane to this discussion
      is by J. W. Hewitt, "The Use of Nails in Crucifixion," Harvard Theological
      Review, 25: 29-45 (1932).

      The reference on the dispensation to carry nails from a crucifixion on the
      Sabbath as healing agents is Mishna Shabbat VI 10. The Jerusalem Talmud VI 9
      and Babylonian Talmud 67a prescribe them for reducing swellings, and
      Maimonides prescribes them for a recurring fever (Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot
      Shabbat VI 10).

      Ed Tyler

      http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
      In a message dated 1/13/2003 12:22:32 PM Central Standard Time, DaGoi@aol.com ... That s a good question, which is my excuse for taking so long to answer. I ve
      Message 109 of 109 , Jan 16, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        In a message dated 1/13/2003 12:22:32 PM Central Standard Time, DaGoi@...
        writes:

        >
        > In a message dated 1/13/3 9:02:58 AM, Ed wrote:
        >
        > <<
        > One other aspect we should not overlook in the case of the ancients is that
        >
        > most processed metals were believed to have magical properties. The same
        > is
        > true of commodities like wine and cheese, and anything else that underwent
        > incomprehensible change in its manufacture. If you have no scientific
        > understanding of metallurgy, or of milk enzymes, or of the transformation
        > of
        > sugars to ethanol, it all looks like magic to you. We know that smiths
        > performed incantations over their work at least as late as the 16th
        > century,
        > and "cheese magic" persists in some rural areas in Europe even today. I
        > expect that the magical associations of ironworking had something to do
        > with
        > the healing properties attributed to these nails, although of course the
        > main
        > source for the beliefs would come from superstitions surrounding death by
        > execution (which also persisted well into the 20th C.)
        > >>
        >
        > Very interesting. Implied here of course is the xian transformation of
        > wine
        > to blood. The Jews officially had a prohibition against such
        > superstitions,
        > but it does crop up here and there even among them.
        > Metalurgy seems pretty straightforward though once the ores are
        > extracted. Tempering is not really such an extensive change as the
        > biochemical changes of alcohol or cheese (of which I know nothing about -
        > how
        > far does cheese go back, and did the ancient Jews have cheese?). I forget
        > the history of steels and when they found that some charcoal added to iron
        > made it harder (this may seem magical due to the rather weak condition that
        >
        > carbon seems to present in its usual end state) and never was aware of the
        > history of the making of carbonized casings (applied today by cyanide
        > baths).
        > I can guess but have never looked into the alchemy of metals being tinged
        > with the occult. Are there any studies for something like this, like the
        > magical feelings of peoples for metalurgical studies?
        >
        >

        That's a good question, which is my excuse for taking so long to answer.
        I've found a passle of resources on specific traditions, but no comprehensive
        study. Of course, it's surprising the things we take for granted that the
        ancients attributed to magic or preternatural causes--the transformation of
        water to ice, for instance. One resource that's germane to this discussion
        is by J. W. Hewitt, "The Use of Nails in Crucifixion," Harvard Theological
        Review, 25: 29-45 (1932).

        The reference on the dispensation to carry nails from a crucifixion on the
        Sabbath as healing agents is Mishna Shabbat VI 10. The Jerusalem Talmud VI 9
        and Babylonian Talmud 67a prescribe them for reducing swellings, and
        Maimonides prescribes them for a recurring fever (Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot
        Shabbat VI 10).

        Ed Tyler

        http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.