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Jesus and the violence of the era

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  • Gordon Raynal
    To all, Just got my AAR/SBL catalog and have hardly had time to look at it... but I note that at the event AAR is having a session with Gandhi s grandson, Hans
    Message 1 of 2 , Sep 12, 2002
      To all,

      Just got my AAR/SBL catalog and have hardly had time to look at it... but I
      note that at the event AAR is having a session with Gandhi's grandson, Hans
      Kung is going to talk about international political paradigms... more
      related to our interests... the first session of the Jesus group is devoted
      to Jesus and violence and Dick Horsely among others has papers... and for a
      real dose of fun... check out the AAR movie section. A must see is surely
      "Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter" (see page 23)!

      back to the bit about Jesus' death... and the ways of that era... yes,
      Josephus notes "trials," but also notes such as Archelaus' troops killing
      3000 "rioters" at Passover time in Jesus' youth... not long afterwards
      Varus' troops crucifying 2000... and onward to "kindly" Pilate... his plan
      to have his troops infiltrate and kill protesters after the "busts"
      incident. The "trials" in the kerygma are clearly theologically designed
      and written. Perhaps there could have been one. But we have NO other
      evidence for this outside the kerygmatic writings. So perhaps. But I
      seriously doubt it.

      Gordon Raynal
      Inman, SC
    • Brian Trafford
      ... I still do not see the relevance of appealing to examples from wartime and open rebellion against the power of Rome. No one is arguing that the Romans
      Message 2 of 2 , Sep 12, 2002
        --- In crosstalk2@y..., "Gordon Raynal" <scudi1@c...> wrote:
        >Josephus notes "trials," but also notes such as Archelaus' troops
        >killing 3000 "rioters" at Passover time in Jesus' youth... not long
        >afterwards Varus' troops crucifying 2000...

        I still do not see the relevance of appealing to examples from
        wartime and open rebellion against the power of Rome. No one is
        arguing that the Romans were "warm and fuzzy" in their treatment of
        their subjects, but they did also demonstrate on many occasions that
        they could act in a manner that was sensitive to the local
        authorities. So again I ask, why doubt that Jewish authorities
        played a role in Jesus' death? It is not an extraordinary, or
        otherwise implausible report, and it lines up with all of the
        positive evidence we have as to how the Romans behaved in such
        matters during such periods of relative peace and tranquility.

        >and onward to "kindly" Pilate... his plan to have his troops
        >infiltrate and kill protesters after the "busts" incident.

        I am unsure why this is relevant to the discussion. Pilate also was
        forced to back down by the locals over the matter of hanging symbols
        of Roman power in the Temple. What does this point, or yours, have
        to do with the topic at hand?

        >The "trials" in the kerygma are clearly theologically designed and
        >written.

        So? The Gospel of Peter had a clear theological agenda, and absolves
        the Romans of all guilt in this matter, laying all of the blame
        (absurdly) on the Jews directly. Paul has a theological agenda, and
        mentions the circumstances of either Roman or Jewish involvement only
        in passing in his undisputed letters, and no more than once in the
        pseudonymous ones. Are we to dismiss all evidence that has a motive
        behind it? That would leave us with quite a paucity of historical
        evidence wouldn't you say? ;^)

        >Perhaps there could have been one. But we have NO other evidence
        >for this outside the kerygmatic writings. So perhaps. But I
        >seriously doubt it.

        Why?

        Peace,

        Brian Trafford
        Calgary, AB, Canada
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