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Re: Re: [XTalk] Nazareth thingy

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  • DaGoi@aol.com
    I ve left Dave s post (slightly shortened) below. First, Bob, mea maxima culpa for misspellings. I see Dave has tried to make excuses for me, but I actually
    Message 1 of 2 , Sep 4, 2002
      I've left Dave's post (slightly shortened) below.

      First, Bob, mea maxima culpa for misspellings. I see Dave has tried to make
      excuses for me, but I actually did think the word was 'Steele' - I knew it
      wasn't steel of course, but used the word as remembered and not checked. I
      have put on what spell check I've got, so that may help a bit, though in my
      hastiness I might have considered the word unlisted anyway - of course, now I
      won't.

      As for the existence and location of copies of the "official" correspondence
      of government officials like Prefects, etc., specifically P. Pilatus, I
      merely meant that it may have been pertinent in his own trial. I think, like
      probably the rest of you, that any contemporary notice being sent to Rome
      would be unlikely; I'd be surprised if as much as a very general line in a
      very general list got to Rome that way. But later, at Pilate's trial, it may
      have come up. Christians were in Rome very early; the first community
      would've been expelled with the Jews under Claudius and Acts mentions friends
      of Paul's who were among those who were expelled. This is only 6 or 8 years
      later.

      The chief prosecution complainants, witnesses and friends of the court
      would have been high ranking Jews most probably, and it would be unlikely
      that they would think to bring up the Jesus thing, but since I think the de
      fence is less likely to mention it, if it exists at all it must be among the
      complainants recorded dialogues - I don't think it would merit mention by the
      judges either.
      I wonder if Josephus used access to records they kept - not that he would
      think this so important a minor detail to include.

      As it was, maybe the only record made was the charge above his head,
      'King of the Jeh the cross. Now, if that got to Caesar, he'd (probably now
      Gaius) ask, "What's this?" and I do not think "Don't ask" would be the
      appropriate answer, though a simple explanation would pass with a laugh and
      without further comment.
      Perhaps if the Christians bothered the Syrians, which it's pretty sure
      they did (an anticultist named Paul was probably just later sent (from the
      Temple?) to root them out) a 'what's this' from his immediate superior in
      Syria may elicit an official document of some sort that in turn be mentioned
      at Pilate's trial in Rome, perhaps used in some culmination of evidence, a
      giant pile of minor mysteries beside a smaller more damning pile of evidence
      about money and incompetence.

      Then again though, in the interplay between complaint and defense it may
      come up how he got suckered into this one and his conduct would be judged on
      who put the better spin on it.
      I'm not as much a Roman historian to say what records they kept for how
      long where or what happened to them after that (burned in one of the sacks?
      Saved at the last minute by a Arian Goth who understood it's significance,
      and from there to the Templars?) and don't imagine we'll ever know
      -but maybe

      I mentioned that I thought it was Jerome and someone who mentioned this,
      it was actually Justin of Rome and Tertullian of Carthage.
      I like Jerome. He was in a position to know. He was the Pope's
      translator, rather the one to make an official copy of the translational
      mess, of the Bible into Latin. The Popes in turn had been chummy with the
      emperors, you know off and on, for three quarters of a century. It's not too
      out of the way to wonder if Jerome would be told and would have had access to
      records of this sort if they existed in his time.
      Christians had been pawing at any old records for quite some time till
      Jerome came to Rome, but Joseph's census records (which were probably minimal
      and got no further than Syria) or Jesus' case number and narrative (which is
      not much of a case to begin with) in the records of the Roman Empire is
      unlikely.
      Justin, only a hundred some years later than Pilate was at Rome, but
      perhaps access was denied to the records of the Empire (or maybe not). He
      refers to it in a defense of Christianity published as an address to the
      Emperor. The Emperor is in Rome also, though it may be improbable that they
      travelled in the same circles. If we can not be certain that it reached his
      ears it was clearly written to persuade the emperor to be lenient and it did
      not work, but to invite him to a fruitless and pointless search at that point
      would put ol' Justin Martyr - ahhhh - at unnecessary risk.
      Tertullian the lawyer from Carthage I don't have much of a handle on.
      But between them was the mother of Constantine who if anything like that
      existed in her time (300 years after Pilate) would have loudly put it in an
      ark in one of her new churches. She supposedly collected the cross, and
      Constantine was buried with who he thought were the 12 (and what's your best
      guess on who he's really buried with?). They seem to be really into this
      relic stuff.

      Bill Foley
      Woburn, Mass




      In a message dated 8/26/2 10:12:13 AM, Dave wrote:

      <<Bob Schacht bemoans:

      >>I have been waiting in vain for someone to point out that the proper
      spelling for the object under discussion is "stela" or "stele," but not
      "steele." It grates on my nerves that the misspelling is being endlessly
      perpetuated.<<

      Sorry, I usually do not attempt to correct the misspelled words in messages
      I back quote, because there are SO many, even in messages from the seasoned
      pros. Besides, it sometimes comes across as pedantic or a not-so-subtle
      criticism of the poster's attention to detail.

      Maybe Bill F. thought it was something like a "lamella" made of steel. <g>
      Then again, we may just have a "spell check" error (e.g., "stele" is
      flagged, with the suggestion "steel," which Bill hastily corrects by adding
      back the final "e" but omits to erase the extra "e" preceding the final
      consonant, and then clicked "update all") We've all done something like that
      ... and more than once!

      I might change the spelling of a word in the subject line if a reply to one
      of my messages seems to solicit dialogue, but so far neither Bill or anyone
      else has had much to say about its importance other than to note where the
      text and images of it can be found, or elected to take up my response to
      Bill's alternate question relating to the existence and location of copies
      of the "official" correspondence of government officials like Prefects,
      etc., specifically P. Pilatus.

      Respectfully,

      Dave Hindley
      Cleveland, Ohio, USA
      >>
    • David C. Hindley
      ... it was actually Justin of Rome and Tertullian of Carthage.
      Message 2 of 2 , Sep 4, 2002
        Bill Foley said:

        >>I mentioned that I thought it was Jerome and someone who mentioned this,
        it was actually Justin of Rome and Tertullian of Carthage. <<

        >>Justin, only a hundred some years later than Pilate was at Rome, but
        perhaps access was denied to the records of the Empire (or maybe not). He
        refers to it in a defense of Christianity published as an address to the
        Emperor. The Emperor is in Rome also, though it may be improbable that they
        travelled in the same circles. If we can not be certain that it reached his
        ears it was clearly written to persuade the emperor to be lenient and it
        did not work, but to invite him to a fruitless and pointless search at that
        point would put ol' Justin Martyr - ahhhh - at unnecessary risk.<<

        But why? Do you think the emperor would actually read something like that or
        have it read to him? While Justin may have publicly addressed the apology to
        the emperor, he was really directing his rhetoric toward the general
        population. I doubt that Justin ever really believed the emperor would take
        up his challenge, but it sounded good to thump his fists on his chest and
        make such a claim. Also, can anyone imagine a Christian walking into the
        imperial hall of records (or whatever they had in those days) and asking to
        get access! I doubt that they were open to the public in Rome, if a full
        report were sent there in the first place. Same goes for local records in
        Caesarea on the Sea.

        Josephus did seem to have access to official records *of the war*, but he
        was also an imperial insider assigned the task of writing an authorized
        account of the war. He had no reason, or mandate, to research anything about
        messianic activists. There is no record of anyone with or without proper
        access who claimed to have *actually* checked the archives until Maximin
        Daia claimed to have published Pilate's commentarii. BTW, Pilate was
        anything but incompetent. He was recalled for indiscriminately crucifying
        Jews who were Roman citizens of the Equestrian order, and there was
        certainly nothing like a "trial" as we think of them. The moment he got the
        notice to come back to Rome, his guilt was virtually assured and his
        official career was over. The Romans did not find graft and corruption such
        as selling appointments or receiving rewards for bestowing honors on rich
        local elites objectionable, but did find breaches of *Roman* law and order,
        such as executions of Roman citizens without trial, objectionable.

        >>Tertullian the lawyer from Carthage I don't have much of a handle on.<<

        He was like the "Mikey" of the Life Cereal TV advertisements of the 70's:
        "He hates everything!" He took himself waaaay too seriously (e.g., ripping
        into gents who dared to trim the hairs of their beards at the corners of
        their mouths), constantly making one sarcastic statement after another, and
        this was one of them. But he was essentially copying Justin in this case.

        Respectfully,

        Dave Hindley
        Cleveland, Ohio, USA
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