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Re: [XTalk] The Twelve

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  • Gordon Raynal
    OOPS... sorry guys and Bill:)!!! (I hope you ll grin at my nicknaming!)... I was meaning to forward this to a friend. Anyway... FWIW... I d simply add that
    Message 1 of 72 , Sep 3, 2002
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      OOPS... sorry guys and Bill:)!!! (I hope you'll grin at my nicknaming!)...
      I was meaning to forward this to a friend. Anyway... FWIW... I'd simply add
      that Signs/ G. John also adds to the puzzle... as in the utter lack of
      concern (and hardly mention) of any "12."
      An interesting exercize is to simply list out the names of known associates
      and count the different streams of literature they show up in. (Anybody done
      that lately?)

      Gordon Raynal
      Inman, SC

      >Here's good old Bill (the Luddite's) response... and tis a good one by
    • Karel Hanhart
      ... Frank, I was and am aware of this structure of the Qumran community. However, as you also know, the differences of the Jesus movement and the Qumran
      Message 72 of 72 , Sep 19, 2002
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        Frank McCoy wrote:

        > --- Karel Hanhart <K.Hanhart@...> wrote:
        > Historically, the original group of twelve were formed
        > IMHO in the wake of the crucifixion, when various
        > Judean factions from within the land and from the
        > diaspora joined with Jesus' disciples, thus forming
        > the beginnings of christianity. Luke reports on this
        > major event in Acts 2 in hagadic fashion. As I
        > suspect, out of this larger group of converts (3000,
        > Acts 2,41) twelve 'apostles' were chosen to lead the
        > movement headed by 'James, Peter and John' called
        > 'pillars'. In other words, the 'historical' Jesus did
        > not select 12 disciples during his lifetime to
        > represent a 'new Israel'. The twelve, chosen soon
        > after the crucifixion, were honored as "witnesses" of
        > the risen Messiah and as such were called 'apostles'.
        > (Comp. Paul's claim to be an apostle not "by men").
        > I have tried to reconstruct the assumed original
        > pre-Markan list of the twelve without a fictive Judas
        > Iscariot and a symbolical Andrew, but including the
        > three 'pillars' on pg 445 as follows: James (Jesus'
        > brother), Simon (Cephas), John (of Jerusalem, an
        > Essene), James Zebedee, John Zebedee, Thomas, Matthew,
        > James (Alphaeus), Thaddaeus, Simon (the Cananaean);
        > Judas, (brother of James).
        > I would very much appreciate your reactions to this
        > proposal,
        > Dear Karel Hanhart:
        > The early Jerusalem Church, with its three pillars and
        > twelve apostles, might be based on an Essene model,
        > thusly described in 1QS (VIII, 1-4), "In the Council
        > of the Community there shall be twelve men and three
        > Priests, perfectly versed in all that is revealed of
        > the Law, whose works shall be truth, righteousness,
        > justice, loving-kindness and humility."


        I was and am aware of this structure of the Qumran community.
        However, as you also know, the differences of the Jesus' movement
        and the Qumran community are considerable. On the other hand,
        it seems clear to me that many followers of Jesus could be called
        'chassidic' as compared to Pharisees, Zealotrs, Herodians and other
        As I see it,( - but who can make bold answers to historical
        questions concerning the early post-crucifixion Jesus' movement? -)
        various chassidim as well as Judeans from the diaspora joined with the
        disciples of Jesus and his Galilean followers soon after the
        crucifixion. It seems to me that there may well be some connection
        between the structure of the Qumran community and the number
        twelve. The twelve may well have been regarded as representing Israel,
        but certainly not as replacing the people of Israel..
        Simon Peter, however, was not a priest; neither James, Jesus'
        brother, as far as we know, James and Peter were naturally regarded
        as leaders from the beginning. It seems to me that John (of Jerusalem) may
        well have
        been a chassidic leader. We may not conclude, therefore,
        that the election was modeled precisely after that Qumran structure.
        The Jerusalem community could well be called chassidic in a broad sense.
        The fact that neither Paul nor the authors of the Gospels refer to the
        implies I think that many persons, sympathetic with the community at Qumran,
        had joined with the disciples. I dare not go further than assessing the texts
        Acts 1, 15 ff (some sort of an election took place!), the text of Acts 2; the
        of James and the "pillars" in Acts and the epistles and the obvious
        in the lists of the twelve we have.


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