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24145Re: [XTalk] Draft of Lord's/Disciple's Prayer Book

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  • Jgibson
    Apr 17, 2013
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      On 4/17/2013 7:23 AM, Gordon Raynal wrote:
      > Good Morning Jeffrey,
      > Thanks for posting your work and this invitation. I've read the
      > opening chapter this morning and I have 4 comments:
      > 1. I very much like your gathering of the many versions of the prayer
      > in one place. Most helpful and this will make it a good teaching tool.
      > 2. I agree with you that this is most probably a creation of the
      > earliest members of "the Way" (to borrow that descriptive term from
      > Acts).

      Is that what I said?
      > As you note, calling YHWH Elohim "Father," is rooted in a
      > number of resources in the Hebrew scriptures. And, of course, asking
      > for bread, for forgiveness, for aid with temptations is similarly
      > rooted.
      But what exactly is being asked for in these requests.
      > With Hal Taussig, I can imagine that Jesus might well have
      > used some of these phrases aphoristically, or that some of these
      > phrases were rooted in Jesus' aphorisms and parables, and I wonder if
      > his own language might have been part of the background of creating
      > the prayer(s), but whether that is the case or not, it is a thoroughly
      > Hebraic/ Jewish prayer with the aforementioned deep roots.

      Something I deal with in Chapter 3. But it's also rooted in Jesus'
      conception of how God wants his faithful to be his people.
      > 3. Not to rehash the Q/ no Q debates, but I will note that this
      > prayer is a part of the Q sermon in the earliest layer according to
      > Kloppenborg, Mack and others. Here, all I'll say is that I think it
      > is very early and could have been created when Jesus was still alive.

      I don't deal with hypothetical texts, just the ones that we have.
      > 4. If pressed for a new name, I'd choose "Apostles' Prayer," and not
      > "Disciples Prayer." Why? The foundational mission agenda is a
      > mission of envoys/ sent ones (apostles) (Q/ Luke 10:1ff). This naming
      > business gets us to the issue of how this group formed and what
      > exactly was Jesus' role in the original group/ groups? Did Jesus
      > found a group? Or was Jesus a part of a group with specific
      > offerings/ gifts that eventually led him to be acclaimed as the "lord/
      > master/ rabbi," and embodiment of the group? That's a different
      > discussion, but if this prayer/ these prayers are either the
      > composition(s) of another while Jesus was alive or in the years after
      > his execution, then what word/ title best describes them? As Paul,
      > for example, uses the "Abba" line in Galatians and Romans, I think the
      > best descriptive is: "Apostle."
      Interesting points. And just who the disciples are in Jesus eyes and
      what his intentions were in calling and gathering them is a question I
      take up in the 4th chapter.

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