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24144Re: [XTalk] Draft of Lord's/Disciple's Prayer Book

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  • Gordon Raynal
    Apr 17, 2013
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      Good Morning Jeffrey,

      Thanks for posting your work and this invitation. I've read the
      opening chapter this morning and I have 4 comments:

      1. I very much like your gathering of the many versions of the prayer
      in one place. Most helpful and this will make it a good teaching tool.

      2. I agree with you that this is most probably a creation of the
      earliest members of "the Way" (to borrow that descriptive term from
      Acts). As you note, calling YHWH Elohim "Father," is rooted in a
      number of resources in the Hebrew scriptures. And, of course, asking
      for bread, for forgiveness, for aid with temptations is similarly
      rooted. With Hal Taussig, I can imagine that Jesus might well have
      used some of these phrases aphoristically, or that some of these
      phrases were rooted in Jesus' aphorisms and parables, and I wonder if
      his own language might have been part of the background of creating
      the prayer(s), but whether that is the case or not, it is a thoroughly
      Hebraic/ Jewish prayer with the aforementioned deep roots.

      3. Not to rehash the Q/ no Q debates, but I will note that this
      prayer is a part of the Q sermon in the earliest layer according to
      Kloppenborg, Mack and others. Here, all I'll say is that I think it
      is very early and could have been created when Jesus was still alive.

      4. If pressed for a new name, I'd choose "Apostles' Prayer," and not
      "Disciples Prayer." Why? The foundational mission agenda is a
      mission of envoys/ sent ones (apostles) (Q/ Luke 10:1ff). This naming
      business gets us to the issue of how this group formed and what
      exactly was Jesus' role in the original group/ groups? Did Jesus
      found a group? Or was Jesus a part of a group with specific
      offerings/ gifts that eventually led him to be acclaimed as the "lord/
      master/ rabbi," and embodiment of the group? That's a different
      discussion, but if this prayer/ these prayers are either the
      composition(s) of another while Jesus was alive or in the years after
      his execution, then what word/ title best describes them? As Paul,
      for example, uses the "Abba" line in Galatians and Romans, I think the
      best descriptive is: "Apostle."

      If this reply is hasty and you cover some of this in later chapters, I
      apologize for my haste. But again, I'm very impressed and wanted to
      send you a thank you and a brief discussion of my response to your
      first chapter.

      Gordon Raynal
      Inman, SC

      On Apr 16, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Jgibson wrote:

      >
      > I've been working for the last few weeks on completing a book on the
      > Lord's/Disciples' Prayer that might be published in the Moorehouse
      > Press
      > "Conversations with Scripture" series.
      >
      > I'd very much like to have comments and criticisms on what I've so far
      > managed to cobble together if you have any inclination to do so.
      >
      > You'll find a pdf draft of it - under the title of "Book revision
      > 3.pdf"
      > in the files section of my JBGibsonWritings Yahoo Group (you'll
      > have
      > to join to access the file).
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JBGibsonWritings/
      >
      >
      > To give you a taste of where I'm going, here's the Introduction to
      > the
      > book.
      >
      >
      >> Introduction
      >>
      >> One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he
      >> finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to
      >> pray, just as John taught his disciples." (Lk. 11:1 NRSV)
      >>
      >>
      >> Every day Christians all over the world, taking the text of Luke
      >> 11:1 as their cue, ‘dare’ and “make bold” both privately and
      >> publically to utter the words which Jesus gave his disciples when
      >> they asked him to teach them to pray. But do Christians actually
      >> understand the words they utter? More importantly, granting that
      >> they have some understanding of these words (as surely they must,
      >> especially if they have read studies of the Prayer or, as is
      >> likely, have been instructed by pastors and teachers on what the
      >> words mean), is this understanding in any way consonant with what
      >> Jesus himself understood the meaning and aim of his words to be?
      >> To put this another way: When we pray the prayer Jesus taught “us”
      >> to pray, are we really praying it as Jesus intended “us” to pray
      >> it. Is what we ask for when we petition God to let his name “be
      >> hallowed” and his Kingdom “come” and for bread and forgiveness and
      >> not being led into “temptation” really what Jesus thought and
      >> meant those who recited his words about God’s name, God’s
      >> Kingdom, “our” bread, forgiveness and “temptation” to be asking
      >> for? I strongly believe, quite contrary to what is most often
      >> thought in this regard, even by important scholars of Jesus’s
      >> Prayer, that the answer to this question is no. And in the
      >> following pages I take up the task of showing through an extended
      >> “conversation” with the bit of scripture traditionally known as
      >> “The Lord’s Prayer” that this is so.
      >
      >
      >
      > As ever,
      >
      > Jeffrey
      >
      >
      > --
      > ---
      > Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
      > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd
      > Chicago, IL
      > jgibson000@...
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
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