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24068Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS

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  • Jack Kilmon
    Feb 10, 2012
      Good Morning, Dennis:
      Ossuaries were "family things" and family members would not refer to their
      fathers, husbands, sons, etc as "Dennis from Hertfordshire" or "Jack from
      Houston." Nicknames were given by family members, hence understandable on
      ossuaries. Nicknames were also used in social groups to distinguish one
      Yahosef, Ya'qub, Yeshua, Yehudah or Shymeon (most popular name) from
      another. One example of an ossuarial inscription giving a location is the
      "Simon of Cyrene" tomb excavated by Sukenik and Avigad in 1941. The ossuary
      of Simon's daughter Sara bears the Greek inscription "Sara (of) Simon of
      Ptolemais" Ptolemais is one of the 5 main cities in Cyrenaica. Other than
      Caiaphas, this is one of the only ossuaries most probably of a known New
      Testament figure given the additional evidence of an ossuary in that tomb
      for Simon's known son, Alexander. I realize cynicism is the current
      scholarly fad but you can only stretch coincidence so far. There is also a
      point where you have to appeal to the cultural anthropology of the time and
      place and nicknames were of family or social group use. I cannot fathom
      "Jude the guy with a knife" when there is a village called Kirioth just down
      the road. The Hebrew ISH Kirioth instead of the Aramaic Kirioth-itha
      suggests to me that it is a designator used by the family for a long time,
      perhaps some priests in the family...IF, again Judas "Iscariot" was an
      historical figure.

      There are so few clues, either archaeological or textual, about the
      prosopography of the New Testament, including Jesus himself, that we have to
      sink ourselves into the social and cultural anthropology and languages of
      the time.

      Best Regards,
      Jack

      Jack Kilmon
      Houston, TX


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Dennis Goffin
      Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 4:27 PM
      To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS


      Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack, but what I found extremely interesting about
      the IAA ossuaries was that about two thirds had nicknames and only one third
      patronymics. Geographical origins came nowhere. Simon is called "rock", the
      Zebedees " sons of thunder", Thomas "the twin" and Simon "the zealot". So
      what's wrong with Judah "the daggerman" ? I've even read it seriously
      advanced that Jesus was called "the anointed" before his death, which is why
      Christ was so quickly appended to his name after his death.Dennis

      ---------------------

      Dennis Goffin

      Chorleywood UKTo: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
      From: jkilmon@...
      Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 15:07:55 -0600
      Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS




























      Hi Ron, Dennis and Sid:



      The name of this person, if indeed he was historical, would have been

      Yehudah Bar Shymeon under normal convention of the times. It would also not

      be uncommon for him to be identified by his place of origin, "feller from

      Kerioth" much like Yeshua haNotsry rather than the name on his driver's

      license, Yeshua Bar Yahosef. Maryam Migdal-ytha, Yahosef haRamathaim,

      Shymeon Kanan-ytha. Although Aramaic was the common language, Hebrew was

      preserved in certain social pockets like the yahad at Qumran or the Beyt

      Hillel or Shammai, in place names and in personal names, as the IAA

      collection of ossuaries reveal. I would bet my matonnaise farm that these

      guys didn't sashay about Roman occupied Palestine in the 1st century with a

      name like "Jude, the guy with a big knife under his tunic for killing

      Romans" nor "Simon, a card-carrying zealot." Almost certainly they used

      their ordinary patronyms or toponyms but the NT books are overflowing with

      Ya'qubs (Jameses), Yahosef's (Josephs), Shymeons (Simon), Yehudahs

      (Jude/Judases) and Yeshua (Jesus) was the 6th most common name (Simon was

      the 1st). As I read the writings of the Gentile churchy types of later

      times, I can tell they were totally confused on which Jude, which James,

      which Simon was which. The first mention of our Judas, Ἰσκαριώτην (a Greek

      syntactic form of Ἰσκαριώθ) at Mark 3:19 in its Semitic form is an

      acceptable name and not a Latin loan. Among the multiple Ya'qubs (Jameses)

      I don't know if Jesus' brother was known as haTsaddik (the Righteous) and

      his two cousin/disciples as haGadol (the Great) and haZaor (the Lesser) or

      whether these are just back-reconstructions of Greek or Latin names given to

      them by the churchies to tell them apart. Even muckety-muck ecclesiastical

      types mix up the "Jameses" because some of them still get apoplectic over

      Jesus having siblings.



      I guess the bottom line is we don't know if this person was real (Jesus

      Barabbas wasn't, IMO), what his name was and how it was derived but "Judas,

      the knife" would have been crucified before Jesus was.



      Regards,



      Jack



      Jack Kilmon

      Houston, TX



      -----Original Message-----

      From: Ronald Price

      Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:11 AM

      To: CrossTalk

      Subject: Re: [XTalk] JUDAS THE SICARIOS



      Dennis and Jack,



      Davies & Allison survey the suggested origins of 'Iscariot' with their usual

      thoroughness ("Matthew", Vol II, p.157). They mention ten possibilities,

      including at least three based on Aramaic. I'm left as baffled as D&A seem

      to have been!



      Ron Price,



      Derbyshire, UK



      http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



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