11454Re: [XTalk] Jesus, James et al and Their Observant Parents
- Nov 8, 2002Hi Ted,
Thanks for the good discussion.
Of course, this is a conjecture and only moves out of the
>range of speculation to being more likely characteristic of Jesus if it canI appreciate your response here. I'll take a look at your proposal when it
>be shown that he was really in conflict with the ideological bent of his
>family and Nazareth. I will be interested in your response to my case for
>that when I post it.
arrives. From further on this original post you obviously see my
reservations about inter-family conflict.
>Hal, at the end of his section on healing (_Jesus before God_, 31) seems toI would state the teaching part differently as well, but it was his view
>equivocate on the issue of Jesus not being a healer since he was a
>teaching sage, namely, "In any case Jesus either *performed* or inspired
>healing in relationship to his uncovering of hidden wisdom and God's
>surprising domain." I also think that too much emphasis is placed by Hal
>and others on Jesus teaching "hidden wisdom." The Thomistic Jesus, yes, but
>the historical Jesus, I do not think that characterization of his teaching
>is quite correct.
about healing I was after. As I've said before, I don't have anything
against Jesus being a healer, I just don't see those "healing stories" as
being any different from the rest of the wonder stories. (namely...
theological affirmation stories rooted out of midrash and imagination).
That the effect of "a ministry of reconciliation" (to just borrow Paul's
phrase) brought social healing... yes. That this had biological benefits
for those involved and "touched by" this movement... yes. That the movement
attracted "healers/ exorcists"... yes. I do find it fascinating in this
regard that when Paul lists "spiritual gifts" in the Corinthian
correspondence... there is no "like Jesus did" reference at all to the role
or place of "healers." But again the center of my difficulty is lack of
evidence. (BTW... a few years ago... Dom and I spent an hour on the phone
haggling over this!)
>> d c. I think this, like the rest of the
>> tart aphoristic and parabolic speech works in the direction of arousing
>> response in the audience... if you will... via "a huh/ what did he say"
>> of reaction. For those in hearing distance who knew their Nevi'im... all
>> sorts of connections might run through their minds. For those who
>> about JTB... this might raise some response to what was going on down
>> by the river. For those who had their own thoughts about "what's gonna
>> happen" and their favorite authorities to back it up... this might arouse
>> double take. I'm simply presenting 3 sorts of responses that might be
>> aroused via that barb.
>These are, of course, possibilities. If we only knew the context in which
>Jesus uttered the saying, n'est pas?
>I take the position in my forthcoming piece that James was the elder brotherMaybe, but I just don't know for sure how we can know that considering the
>in the family. I would be interested in your response to my case, when I
>post it, for Jesus fashioning the "Prodigal" via the interdynamics of his
resources we have. But in this regard... you'll guess my comeback:)!...
namely this is a family with 5 boys, not two... and Jesus could have
referred to himself as the older brother in this dyad... say in relation to
one of his younger brothers:)! But here again... I have to differeniate
between searching out the meaning of parables by robust hermeneutical play
and making historical claims.
>I follow your point. I think there can be vastly opposite positions heldSurely, but I'll be interested about how you'll posit the turn around such
>by persons in families without those differences leading to hostile
>division. I have also known of many families were differences, not even
>unbreachable differences, have led to the severing of relationships and the
>unwillingness to reconcile.
that Paul will mention "the pillars" as being James, Peter and John. And
his standing was such that he would be claimed by multiple trajectories of
theologizing thus I'll be interested in your rationale for choosing one of
those over the others as a part of this.
>As I see it, Jesus repudiates the cultic purity codes, the cultic boundaryI will look forward to it. I just don't see "purity" per se, in quite the
>markers, which distinguish who is in and and who is out of God's favor
>(read: the cult's favor), in keeping with his egalitarian orientation toward
>the unqualified acceptance of the clean and unclean together in his
>kingdom vision. Again, I plan to present my case for this in the near
same way you do. A question... and maybe I missed it in your presentation:
Do you think Jesus was circumsized?
>I am not sure how much the war caused the need for "standard proclamations."I'm just one of those folks who thinks that Luke-Acts comes after John and
>I doubt the war was that much of an issue among Gentile Christians, and I do
>not detect in Luke-Acts the war being the motivating factor in Luke's
>formulation of his Heilgeschichte. I do agree with you that Acts, at
>least, was written in that time frame. Richard Pervo argued for the same
>time period for Acts (110-120) at the fall meeting of the Jesus Seminar, and
>settled on the mean, 115 CE.
circa 120. In Luke's case... ne'ertheless... there is continuing concern
about Jesus' relationship to the Temple religion of the past... expanded
story about Zechariah and Elizabeth... the telling of the circumcision...
the old "prophets" and that little ditty about Jesus at 12, of course.
Luke-Acts really "fills out" both Mark and Matthew's proclamation. And as
for being "an issue among Gentile Christians"... I'm still wondering about
the mix in those farflung congregations, namely those of Hebraic/Jewish
background and former "pagans." With politics in Palestine so up and down
until the final quenching of Hadrian versus Bar Kochba... I do think this is
not the only factor, but a key one.
>dandy... again... a "but":)! Were that the case... one can also posit a faux
>> sage... after all... is quite able to cast himself fictionally... if
>> part of the twist... to arouse the dialogue and thought!
>Quite so, and what better material for such parabolic casting than his own
>family experience, a la "the Prodigal"?
conflict or a tease or that Jesus and James just had a big argument over "x"
and he used those as motivations. Or perhaps he was thinking new thoughts
about another brother story... Isaac and Jacob... and/or just using his
creative genius to take a story form (father/ brother... brother conflict)
and spinning a new yarn whole cloth??? There can be speculations aplenty...
what I will note is that Luke will place this in the context of one who
embodies reconciliation... one who will weep over Jerusalem and say "Would
that you knew this day the things that make for peace." As you can obviously
tell... this whole business of identifying motivations/ background is very
dicey business to me:)! But the last thing I'll guestimate about here is
that if there were a huge conflict... and you're right... then the parable
seemed to work on old James:)!
>>Nice to end on agreements!!!
>> Lastly... James... like Jesus is going to be cast in a number of ways.
>> Thomas and later gnostic trajectory will claim him. He will be right in
>> their with the apocalyptic oriented folks. He will be remembered as
>> concerned about Purity. He will be remembered for his wisdom.
>> I don't
>> think we know too much about HJ. I think we know less about HJames,
>> and even HPaul!
>Thank you, Gordon, for taking time to respond in a thoughtful and helpfullyAnd thanks to you. I'm helped by seeing the fresh ways in which the
>provocative way. I apologize for the delay in my reply. My schedule in
>last two days has prevented me from getting back to you before now. BTW,
>you had indicated in your post of Sunday, 11/3, that you hoped to see me at
>SBL. I will not be attending SBL this year. I am sorry that I will miss
>the opportunity to see you there.
hermeneutical task is taken up. I'm just a very cautious historian about
all of ancient history.
Sorry I'll miss seeing you in Toronto. Maybe next year in Hotlanta!
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