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birch bark bible

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  • Ian Hutchesson
    To our nice Ahmadiyyist, Joey, ... Just a little more on this interesting religious text that shows: The book also seems to mention the prophet Mohammed as
    Message 1 of 20 , May 2 2:33 PM
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      To our nice Ahmadiyyist, Joey,

      >>Bhavishya Maha Purana, one of the sixteen Maha Puranas.

      Just a little more on this interesting religious text that shows:

      The book also seems to mention the prophet Mohammed as well as Queen Victoria!
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Just an illiterate man with the epithet Teacher, Muhammad by name, came
      along with his companions. Raja (Bhoja in a vision) to that Great Diva,
      that denizen of Arabia, purifying with the Ganges water and with the five
      things of cow offered sandal wood and pay worship to him. O denizen of
      Arabia and Lord of the holies, to thee is my adoration. O thou who hast
      found many ways and means to destroy the devils of the world. O pure one
      from among the illiterates, O sinless one, the spirit of the truth and
      absolute master, to thee is my adoration. Accept me at thy feet. (Bhavishya
      Purana Parv 3, Khand 3, Adhya 3, Shalok 5-8)
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      The text also contains various more modern references.

      I'm looking forward to your historical analysis of the birk bark bit.


      Ian
    • joseph baxter
      ... Yes. This distinguishes it from the lesser (or interpretive) works known as the Uppapurana.(And I ... Well, I leave that subject to you, Ian. I don t read
      Message 2 of 20 , May 2 3:31 PM
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        At 11:01 PM 5/2/99 +0200, you wrote:
        >At 12.17 02/05/99 -0700, joseph baxter wrote:
        >>At 11:33 AM 5/2/99 -0500, Ian wrote:


        >
        >Maha I gather means "great" and is cognate with "maja" & "major".

        Yes. This distinguishes it from the lesser (or interpretive) works known as
        the Uppapurana.(And I
        >think Bhavishya means future.)
        >
        >The particular document is the source of some of Mdme Blavatsky's writings.

        Well, I leave that subject to you, Ian. I don't read Madame Blah-Blah-vatsky.


        >I can't wait for more of the same. You still push this "he didn't really
        >die stuff", merely because you need him alive to make it to Srinagar.

        Personally, I don't care if he makes it to Srinegar. The Kashmiri Jesus
        literature really doesn't provide anything useful about the teachings of
        Yeshu. GThomas is far more interesting. But if you want to discuss the
        known reported facts regarding Jesus in India, Asia, or Kashmir, I am
        comfortable discussing them. I don't say this or that is true. I find a
        lot of the reported facts hard to believe. If someone can disprove
        something, that's fine with me. But, simply ignoring reported facts, that I
        don't like.

        As for the Asian material, the Avalokitesvara information is probably the
        most thought provoking, since it is related to the central teaching of
        Yeshu, but the historical facts just aren't there for study. Thus, as for
        the Asian facts, I really don't care to prove anything. The center of the
        teaching material is clearly in the west. But if someone wants an
        explanation for what happened to him after he left the Roman empire, the
        explanation is there, and it as reasonable as any explanation, and it's as
        least as interesting as anything else you post about

        What is clear to me, nonetheless, is that Yeshu was around after the
        crucifixion. We know there was a forceful effect of the idea that Yeshu had
        been alive. I personally find it hard to believe that Yeshu would have had
        such a stunning effect on his disciples if he simply died.

        With kind regards,

        Joe



        joe
      • joseph baxter
        ... So tell me, dear friend, what library do you have access to? Clearly you must be inside the Vatican library, as Tom said, to get this stuff.
        Message 3 of 20 , May 2 3:40 PM
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          At 11:33 PM 5/2/99 +0200, Ian wrote:

          >>>Bhavishya Maha Purana, one of the sixteen Maha Puranas.
          >
          >Just a little more on this interesting religious text that shows:
          >
          >The book also seems to mention the prophet Mohammed as well as Queen Victoria!
          >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >Just an illiterate man with the epithet Teacher, Muhammad by name, came
          >along with his companions. Raja (Bhoja in a vision) to that Great Diva,
          >that denizen of Arabia, purifying with the Ganges water and with the five
          >things of cow offered sandal wood and pay worship to him. O denizen of
          >Arabia and Lord of the holies, to thee is my adoration. O thou who hast
          >found many ways and means to destroy the devils of the world. O pure one
          >from among the illiterates, O sinless one, the spirit of the truth and
          >absolute master, to thee is my adoration. Accept me at thy feet. (Bhavishya
          >Purana Parv 3, Khand 3, Adhya 3, Shalok 5-8)

          So tell me, dear friend, what library do you have access to? Clearly you
          must be inside the Vatican library, as Tom said, to get this stuff.
          Notwithstanding that, you are clearly reading a much later version. may
          you be blessed with cow offerings until you answer my question.

          joe


          joe
        • Ian Hutchesson
          ... Hey, Joe, where ya going with that gun in your hand? I think by now we ve seen that you ve got nothing up your sleave. You re the one who is supposed to
          Message 4 of 20 , May 2 3:44 PM
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            >So tell me, dear friend, what library do you have access to? Clearly you
            >must be inside the Vatican library, as Tom said, to get this stuff.
            >Notwithstanding that, you are clearly reading a much later version. may
            >you be blessed with cow offerings until you answer my question.

            Hey, Joe, where ya going with that gun in your hand?

            I think by now we've seen that you've got nothing up your sleave. You're
            the one who is supposed to have the textual support for your ravings.
            Haven't you *even* got a copy of the Bhavishya Purana? <grin>

            Come clean, Joey. Who's your source? Deardorf? Ahmadiyya literature? Menon?


            Ian
          • joseph baxter
            ... Who s got the Beretta, my friend? ... Sorry, my friend, but I didn t think you wanted cites. But I forgot that you are sitting at your terminal in the
            Message 5 of 20 , May 2 6:28 PM
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              At 12:44 AM 5/3/99 +0200, you wrote:
              >>So tell me, dear friend, what library do you have access to? Clearly you
              >>must be inside the Vatican library, as Tom said, to get this stuff.
              >>Notwithstanding that, you are clearly reading a much later version. may
              >>you be blessed with cow offerings until you answer my question.
              >
              >Hey, Joe, where ya going with that gun in your hand?

              Who's got the Beretta, my friend?
              >
              >I think by now we've seen that you've got nothing up your sleave. You're
              >the one who is supposed to have the textual support for your ravings.
              >Haven't you *even* got a copy of the Bhavishya Purana? <grin>
              >
              >Come clean, Joey. Who's your source? Deardorf? Ahmadiyya literature? Menon?

              Sorry, my friend, but I didn't think you wanted cites. But I forgot that
              you are sitting at your terminal in the Vatican library. The edition I am
              referring to is entitled "Bhavishya Maha Purana" and was published in 1910
              by the Oriental Research Library, University of Kashmir, Srinegar. It
              contains a copy of the original Sanskrit manuscript in the Shardic
              alphabet. See ch. 3, ,sec2, shloka 9-31. There is also a 1917 version
              published by the Venkateshvaria Press in Bombay. There is also a 1910
              edition published by the Oriental Research Institute in Poona, India.

              For a recent translation by a team of Kashmiri University professors, and
              recent photographs of the birch bark papyrus, see Professor Fida Hassnain's
              "A Search For The Historical Jesus", published by Gateway Books in Bath, in
              1994.

              As for Jeffrey Gibson's and your comments about "Sutta," the ancient
              author is referred to as "Pandit Sutta." That doesn't sound like a sutra.

              I hope this information is of some use. In the future, if you want citable
              reference works, please be more specific, and I will be happy to oblige.

              With kind regards,

              Joe

              joe
            • Legendmyth@aol.com
              If Jesus--And this is a real big if--went East, why does it follow that it was after the cross? The old theory is that the East (India) was where is spent the
              Message 6 of 20 , May 2 8:44 PM
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                If Jesus--And this is a real big if--went East, why does it follow that it
                was after the cross?

                The old theory is that the East (India) was where is spent the "lost years."
                The writings are first century. So are the Gospels. I would assume there
                was more than one bloke running around with the name of Jesus or Yeshu--just
                look at Mexico! The romantic in me (theological romantic, that is) would
                love to believe that J. spent his lost years in India walking on water and
                further amazing the local spiritual adepts. The realist in me says no way!

                Sarah
              • Ian Hutchesson
                ... Now that you ve admitted your major source, you should take the time to look at theworks cited by Fida Hassnain (who is a Sufi teacher and retired
                Message 7 of 20 , May 2 9:38 PM
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                  At 18.28 02/05/99 -0700, joseph baxter wrote:
                  >At 12:44 AM 5/3/99 +0200, you wrote:
                  >>>So tell me, dear friend, what library do you have access to? Clearly you
                  >>>must be inside the Vatican library, as Tom said, to get this stuff.
                  >>>Notwithstanding that, you are clearly reading a much later version. may
                  >>>you be blessed with cow offerings until you answer my question.
                  >>
                  >>Hey, Joe, where ya going with that gun in your hand?
                  >
                  >Who's got the Beretta, my friend?
                  >>
                  >>I think by now we've seen that you've got nothing up your sleave. You're
                  >>the one who is supposed to have the textual support for your ravings.
                  >>Haven't you *even* got a copy of the Bhavishya Purana? <grin>
                  >>
                  >>Come clean, Joey. Who's your source? Deardorf? Ahmadiyya literature? Menon?
                  >
                  >Sorry, my friend, but I didn't think you wanted cites. But I forgot that
                  >you are sitting at your terminal in the Vatican library. The edition I am
                  >referring to is entitled "Bhavishya Maha Purana" and was published in 1910
                  >by the Oriental Research Library, University of Kashmir, Srinegar. It
                  >contains a copy of the original Sanskrit manuscript in the Shardic
                  >alphabet. See ch. 3, ,sec2, shloka 9-31. There is also a 1917 version
                  >published by the Venkateshvaria Press in Bombay. There is also a 1910
                  >edition published by the Oriental Research Institute in Poona, India.
                  >
                  >For a recent translation by a team of Kashmiri University professors, and
                  >recent photographs of the birch bark papyrus, see Professor Fida Hassnain's
                  >"A Search For The Historical Jesus", published by Gateway Books in Bath, in
                  >1994.

                  Now that you've admitted your major source, you should take the time to
                  look at theworks cited by Fida Hassnain (who is a Sufi teacher and retired
                  professor). Such wonderfully trustworthy works as: "Jesus Lived in India"
                  by Holger Kersten, "The Gospel of Bartholomew" (big favourite for you
                  Ahmadiyyan fans), "The Crucifixion by an Eyewitness" (a Freemason
                  circulated work which has conveniently disappeared -- oops we can scratch
                  that one), and pseudo-Essene fantasies of Szekely (the sort of thing you
                  find in quaint theosophy bookstores -- need I say more?).

                  >I hope this information is of some use.

                  Yes, very revealing.

                  >In the future, if you want citable
                  >reference works, please be more specific, and I will be happy to oblige.

                  Joey, the citable stuff is with regard to dating and sourcing of original
                  materials. You haven't done so. You have only hinted at a tertiary source's
                  comments on secondary sources' comments. I want to know how you can
                  actually date your one slim excerpt from the Bhavishya Purana which uses an
                  Arabic form of the name of Jesus, suggesting some time after the Islamic
                  conquest of northern India. What techniques were used in the dating of the
                  birch bark text? Who has validated the dating techniques? I am asking for a
                  scholarly approach to the dating of the bbb. Without it you are in the dark
                  (one of your favourite hangouts). Do I need to get more specific than that?
                  The text itself shows clear reworking over several centuries. I wonder if
                  Bill Clinton'll make it in as well...

                  I see nothing substantive for you to hold onto your seemingly ridiculous
                  position regarding Jesus' "survival after the crucifixion".


                  Ian
                • Ian Hutchesson
                  ... In fact, Sarah, some writers have also proposed this idea. However, both flights make one ask, as we are taking flights, why on earth would he want to go
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 2 9:45 PM
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                    At 23.44 02/05/99 EDT, Legendmyth@... wrote:
                    >If Jesus--And this is a real big if--went East, why does it follow that it
                    >was after the cross?

                    In fact, Sarah, some writers have also proposed this idea. However, both
                    flights make one ask, as we are taking flights, why on earth would he want
                    to go to India?

                    >The old theory is that the East (India) was where is spent the "lost
                    years."
                    >The writings are first century. So are the Gospels. I would assume there
                    >was more than one bloke running around with the name of Jesus or Yeshu--just
                    >look at Mexico! The romantic in me (theological romantic, that is) would
                    >love to believe that J. spent his lost years in India walking on water and
                    >further amazing the local spiritual adepts. The realist in me says no way!

                    The romantic D.H.Lawrence wrote a novella called "The Man Who Died" or "The
                    Escaped Cock", about a resuscitated Jesus getting off with a priestess of
                    Isis and finding out about life. The situation is quite pregnant for the
                    romantic mind.


                    Ian
                  • Christ Thomas
                    ... Yes, Sarah, that is far fetched, isn t it.
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 3 1:15 AM
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                      Legendmyth@... wrote:
                      >
                      > If Jesus--And this is a real big if--went East, why does it follow that it
                      > was after the cross?
                      >
                      > The old theory is that the East (India) was where is spent the "lost years."
                      > The writings are first century. So are the Gospels. I would assume there
                      > was more than one bloke running around with the name of Jesus or Yeshu--just
                      > look at Mexico! The romantic in me (theological romantic, that is) would
                      > love to believe that J. spent his lost years in India walking on water and
                      > further amazing the local spiritual adepts. The realist in me says no way!
                      >
                      > Sarah

                      Yes, Sarah, that is far fetched, isn't it.
                    • Tom Simms
                      ... And, pray tell, Ian, do you only consult non-sectarian sources? If so, you can t know much. Even most pagan material is polemical. Two Tomb Simms (I
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 3 4:49 AM
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                        On Mon, 03 May 1999 00:44:34 +0200, mc2499@... writes:
                        >
                        >>So tell me, dear friend, what library do you have access to? Clearly you
                        >>must be inside the Vatican library, as Tom said, to get this stuff.
                        >>Notwithstanding that, you are clearly reading a much later version. may
                        >>you be blessed with cow offerings until you answer my question.
                        >
                        >Hey, Joe, where ya going with that gun in your hand?
                        >
                        >I think by now we've seen that you've got nothing up your sleave. You're
                        >the one who is supposed to have the textual support for your ravings.
                        >Haven't you *even* got a copy of the Bhavishya Purana? <grin>
                        >
                        >Come clean, Joey. Who's your source? Deardorf? Ahmadiyya literature? Menon?
                        > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

                        And, pray tell, Ian, do you only consult non-sectarian sources? If
                        so, you can't know much. Even most pagan material is polemical.

                        Two Tomb Simms (I don't have to go dig, I tell 'em where to.)

                        >
                        >Ian
                        >
                        >
                      • Christ Thomas
                        ... Ezek. 10:10 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel. Ezek. 10:14 And every one had
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 3 4:53 AM
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                          Christ Thomas wrote:
                          >
                          > Legendmyth@... wrote:
                          > >
                          > > If Jesus--And this is a real big if--went East, why does it follow that it
                          > > was after the cross?
                          > >
                          > > The old theory is that the East (India) was where is spent the "lost years."
                          > > The writings are first century. So are the Gospels. The realist in me says no way!
                          > >
                          > > Sarah
                          >
                          > Yes, Sarah, that is far fetched, isn't it.

                          Ezek. 10:10 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness,
                          as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.

                          Ezek. 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face
                          of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third
                          the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

                          By far, one of the most interesting aspects of a sighting of Jesus in
                          India, after the resurrection, in that the rumor has persisted for over
                          two thousand years. That within it’s self is something for one to
                          ponder. There is an excellent reason, found within the scriptures, to
                          discount a sighting and another reason why such a rumor would still
                          persist. The children of God have one likeness. They all look alike.
                          Ezekiel told you that. Quite simply, they saw the Twin Brother of Jesus.

                          Ezek. 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four
                          living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness
                          of a man.
                          Ezek. 1:16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto
                          the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their
                          appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a
                          wheel.
                          Ezek. 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the
                          day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This
                          was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I
                          saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

                          Ezek. 2:1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I
                          will speak unto thee.

                          Ezek. 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and
                          set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

                          The Twin Brother of Jesus, that went to India after the death of Jesus,
                          you all know, except for the doubters, was Judas Didymus Thomas.

                          Matt. 13:55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called
                          Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and JUDAS?
                          John 11:16 Then said THOMAS, which is called DIDYMUS, unto his
                          fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.
                          Acts 20:4 And there accompanied him into Asia and Timotheus; and of
                          Asia,

                          The name THOMAS is the acts and other new testaments is spelled
                          TIMOTHEUS. The misspelling was one of those adulterated acts that
                          allowed the RC church to deceive the earth. That was one of the ways she
                          could exalt Peter and make him the head of her church. She just hid the
                          name Thomas with an ancient spelling.

                          Why would the sighting of Jesus in India be less plausible? Because
                          after the resurrection he did not have the same likeness. He rose in
                          another form.

                          Mark 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had
                          been seen of her, believed not.

                          Mark 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as
                          they walked, and went into the country.

                          The children of God all have one likeness. If Jesus was observed in
                          India he would have been in the latter form which no one would have
                          recognized.

                          Thomas lived in India until his own murder and built Seven Churches
                          there. They are still there. Quite simply the Twin Brother of Jesus was
                          mistaken for Jesus.

                          Thomas
                        • joseph baxter
                          Tone down the polemics, Ian, I think you have forgotten the context of our discussion, which had to do with hypotheses, such as the hypothesis re the name of
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 3 9:22 AM
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                            Tone down the polemics, Ian, I think you have forgotten the context of our
                            discussion, which had to do with hypotheses, such as the hypothesis re the
                            name of the man, and hypotheses to explain certain reported Asian facts
                            such as the Seat of Solomon temple inscriptions, and other *reported*
                            facts, including the one you are currently frothing at the mouth about. (If
                            you have a hypothesis which explains the large body of reported Asian
                            facts, or any of these reported facts, that is fair game for discussion.)
                            I will respond to your message as time permits.

                            With kind regards,

                            Joe


                            At 06:38 AM 5/3/99 +0200, you wrote:
                            >At 18.28 02/05/99 -0700, joseph baxter wrote:
                            >>At 12:44 AM 5/3/99 +0200, you wrote:
                            >>>>So tell me, dear friend, what library do you have access to? Clearly you
                            >>>>must be inside the Vatican library, as Tom said, to get this stuff.
                            >>>>Notwithstanding that, you are clearly reading a much later version. may
                            >>>>you be blessed with cow offerings until you answer my question.
                            >>>
                            >>>Hey, Joe, where ya going with that gun in your hand?
                            >>
                            >>Who's got the Beretta, my friend?
                            >>>
                            >>>I think by now we've seen that you've got nothing up your sleave. You're
                            >>>the one who is supposed to have the textual support for your ravings.
                            >>>Haven't you *even* got a copy of the Bhavishya Purana? <grin>
                            >>>
                            >>>Come clean, Joey. Who's your source? Deardorf? Ahmadiyya literature? Menon?
                            >>
                            >>Sorry, my friend, but I didn't think you wanted cites. But I forgot that
                            >>you are sitting at your terminal in the Vatican library. The edition I am
                            >>referring to is entitled "Bhavishya Maha Purana" and was published in 1910
                            >>by the Oriental Research Library, University of Kashmir, Srinegar. It
                            >>contains a copy of the original Sanskrit manuscript in the Shardic
                            >>alphabet. See ch. 3, ,sec2, shloka 9-31. There is also a 1917 version
                            >>published by the Venkateshvaria Press in Bombay. There is also a 1910
                            >>edition published by the Oriental Research Institute in Poona, India.
                            >>
                            >>For a recent translation by a team of Kashmiri University professors, and
                            >>recent photographs of the birch bark papyrus, see Professor Fida Hassnain's
                            >>"A Search For The Historical Jesus", published by Gateway Books in Bath, in
                            >>1994.
                            >
                            >Now that you've admitted your major source, you should take the time to
                            >look at theworks cited by Fida Hassnain (who is a Sufi teacher and retired
                            >professor). Such wonderfully trustworthy works as: "Jesus Lived in India"
                            >by Holger Kersten, "The Gospel of Bartholomew" (big favourite for you
                            >Ahmadiyyan fans), "The Crucifixion by an Eyewitness" (a Freemason
                            >circulated work which has conveniently disappeared -- oops we can scratch
                            >that one), and pseudo-Essene fantasies of Szekely (the sort of thing you
                            >find in quaint theosophy bookstores -- need I say more?).
                            >
                            >>I hope this information is of some use.
                            >
                            >Yes, very revealing.
                            >
                            >>In the future, if you want citable
                            >>reference works, please be more specific, and I will be happy to oblige.
                            >
                            >Joey, the citable stuff is with regard to dating and sourcing of original
                            >materials. You haven't done so. You have only hinted at a tertiary source's
                            >comments on secondary sources' comments. I want to know how you can
                            >actually date your one slim excerpt from the Bhavishya Purana which uses an
                            >Arabic form of the name of Jesus, suggesting some time after the Islamic
                            >conquest of northern India. What techniques were used in the dating of the
                            >birch bark text? Who has validated the dating techniques? I am asking for a
                            >scholarly approach to the dating of the bbb. Without it you are in the dark
                            >(one of your favourite hangouts). Do I need to get more specific than that?
                            >The text itself shows clear reworking over several centuries. I wonder if
                            >Bill Clinton'll make it in as well...
                            >
                            >I see nothing substantive for you to hold onto your seemingly ridiculous
                            >position regarding Jesus' "survival after the crucifixion".
                            >
                            >
                            >Ian

                            joe
                          • Christ Thomas
                            ... Ezek. 10:10 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel. Ezek. 10:14 And every one had
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 3 10:04 AM
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                              Christ Thomas wrote:
                              >
                              > Legendmyth@... wrote:
                              > >
                              > > If Jesus--And this is a real big if--went East, why does it follow that it
                              > > was after the cross?
                              > >
                              > > The old theory is that the East (India) was where is spent the "lost years."
                              > > The writings are first century. So are the Gospels. The realist in me says no way!
                              > >
                              > > Sarah
                              >
                              > Yes, Sarah, that is far fetched, isn't it.

                              Ezek. 10:10 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness,
                              as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.

                              Ezek. 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face
                              of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third
                              the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

                              By far, one of the most interesting aspects of a sighting of Jesus in
                              India, after the resurrection, in that the rumor has persisted for over
                              two thousand years. That within it’s self is something for one to
                              ponder. There is an excellent reason, found within the scriptures, to
                              discount a sighting and another reason why such a rumor would still
                              persist. The children of God have one likeness. They all look alike.
                              Ezekiel told you that. Quite simply, they saw the Twin Brother of Jesus.

                              Ezek. 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four
                              living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness
                              of a man.
                              Ezek. 1:16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto
                              the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their
                              appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a
                              wheel.
                              Ezek. 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the
                              day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This
                              was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I
                              saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

                              Ezek. 2:1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I
                              will speak unto thee.

                              Ezek. 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and
                              set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

                              The Twin Brother of Jesus, that went to India after the death of Jesus,
                              you all know, except for the doubters, was Judas Didymus Thomas.

                              Matt. 13:55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called
                              Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and JUDAS?
                              John 11:16 Then said THOMAS, which is called DIDYMUS, unto his
                              fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.
                              Acts 20:4 And there accompanied him into Asia and Timotheus; and of
                              Asia,

                              The name THOMAS is the acts and other new testaments is spelled
                              TIMOTHEUS. The misspelling was one of those adulterated acts that
                              allowed the RC church to deceive the earth. That was one of the ways she
                              could exalt Peter and make him the head of her church. She just hid the
                              name Thomas with an ancient spelling.

                              Why would the sighting of Jesus in India be less plausible? Because
                              after the resurrection he did not have the same likeness. He rose in
                              another form.

                              Mark 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had
                              been seen of her, believed not.

                              Mark 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as
                              they walked, and went into the country.

                              The children of God all have one likeness. If Jesus was observed in
                              India he would have been in the latter form which no one would have
                              recognized.

                              Thomas lived in India until his own murder and built Seven Churches
                              there. They are still there. Quite simply the Twin Brother of Jesus was
                              mistaken for Jesus.

                              Thomas
                            • Shahina Amin
                              Dear Ian, If Joe is an Ahmadi in disguise I would certainly like to know that. Why does it make you suspicious that just because he believes in an aspect about
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 3 10:17 AM
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                                Dear Ian,

                                If Joe is an Ahmadi in disguise I would certainly like to know that. Why
                                does it make you suspicious that just because he believes in an aspect
                                about Jesus' life/death that the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam holds that he
                                must be a secret Ahmadi?

                                Haven't we already discussed this issue of Jesus' survival from the cross
                                and ending up in Kashmir, India enough times already? I certainly don't
                                mind this discussion to go on forever but when one is not convinced the
                                first time maybe he won't be later either.

                                Peace
                                Shahina
                              • Ian Hutchesson
                                ... Polemics, Joe? Naaa, I don t have an agenda -- other than coherent balanced analysis along scientific lines , if you want to call that an agenda. ...
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 4 4:46 PM
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                                  At 09.22 03/05/99 -0700, joseph baxter wrote:
                                  >Tone down the polemics, Ian,

                                  Polemics, Joe? Naaa, I don't have an agenda -- other than "coherent
                                  balanced analysis along scientific lines", if you want to call that an agenda.

                                  >I think you have forgotten the context of our
                                  >discussion,

                                  Definitely not. My first comment was to Jack for asking "Birch Bark
                                  Scripture? Wuzzat?" It was you who introduced this "Birch Bark Scripture"
                                  stuff and I merely commented on the evidence -- or better the lack of it.

                                  >which had to do with hypotheses, such as the hypothesis re the
                                  >name of the man,

                                  As to such a hypothesis, I have already stated my position: the texts are
                                  in Greek and probably none was written anywhere near Judea; no-one has
                                  established a historical person at the core of the Jesus literature, so one
                                  can't make presuppositions as to a non-historical person's place of
                                  residence; all we therefore have is a Greek name of a literary personality.

                                  >and hypotheses to explain certain reported Asian facts
                                  >such as the Seat of Solomon temple inscriptions, and other *reported*
                                  >facts, including the one you are currently frothing at the mouth about.

                                  It's hard for you to overcome the necessity to believe. It overshadows your
                                  ability to test your surrogate hypotheses. All fall down with the
                                  incredible notion of a Jesus surviving his crucifixion, the first hurdle
                                  you have failed to deal with. (The second is lack of credible dating for
                                  your "Asian facts".)

                                  >(If
                                  >you have a hypothesis which explains the large body of reported Asian
                                  >facts, or any of these reported facts, that is fair game for discussion.)

                                  Naturally, as indications of a Jesus in India started cropping up with
                                  Mirza and the "discovery" of the tomb of Jesus, I can see no reason for
                                  looking further afield.

                                  >I will respond to your message as time permits.

                                  It might be better, if you can't add anything substantive (as you haven't
                                  so far), that you get the substance first.


                                  Cheers,


                                  Ian
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