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Terra sacra

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  • Aleksandar Milanovic
    ... Dear collague, You are waching to much CNN. What you know about history of Kosovo and Metochia throught centuries, apart of TV stories. Did your
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 3, 1999
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      Jack Kilmon wrote:

      > If he does, he will liken Milosevic and his military henchmen as
      > a "pit of vipers" and will immediately (euqes) depart to Kosovo
      > and say to the Albanian Kosovars:
      >
      > TOObehon l'miskNAya, deDILehon malKOOtha dishMAya
      > <Aramaic for> Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom
      > of Heaven>
      > and
      > TOObehon demitABelin, deHINun mitnaHAmin
      > <Aramaic for> Blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted.
      >
      > He will weep over the thousands of men, women and children murdered
      > in the Serbian holocaust.


      Dear collague,

      You are waching to much CNN. What you know about history of Kosovo and
      Metochia throught centuries, apart of TV stories. Did your grandfathers
      live there like my. Have you ever been on Kosovo and have you ever seen
      land and people there. Kosovo and Metohija (do you know what means
      'Metohija' or 'Methochy') is NOT comunist fiction. It is historical
      serbian land. We took that land NOT from Ilirs (or Albanians, but it is
      NOT same!), but from Romans (Byzantium) like other europian people, and
      we live there IN CONTINUING more than 1300 years. Read first Turkish
      (not Serbian!) census of Brankovic's domain (main part of Kosovo and
      Metochia) in 1455. There was 97% of serbian population. Now it is on
      Kosovo and Metohija Albanian majority because Turks islamic persecutions
      in all Balkans lands (1453-1912), nazy "Great Albania's" teror during
      Second World War, and comunist anti-serbian politic (1945-?). But and
      TODAY we are living there! Read not serbian, read independent history
      sources about Kosovo and Metohija, and you'll learn something better
      than current US government's and CNN's politics. Have you ever read
      Porphirogenit's De administrando Imperio (DAI)? It's prime suorce for
      early Croatian and Serbian history from 10th century. You can find there
      many availables details for teritories in which they lived and still
      live (cap. 29-36). In Middle Ages there wasn't one national state for
      one people. Germans, Franch, Russians, Srebs lived a long time in
      several states. By DAI Serbs live in Serbia (which part is and Bosnia -
      check it!), Pagania (today one Croatian part of Dalmatia, between Cetina
      and Neretva river), Zahumlje (today mostly part of Herzegovina),
      Travunia (today part of Herzegovina), and Diocitia (today mostly
      Montenegro). In c. 950 (after archont Chaslav) Serbia was separated (by
      Hungarian attacks) on two parts: Bosnia and Raska (or Serbia). During
      Nemanic dynasty (1166-1371) Pagaia, Zaumlje, Travunia and Dioklitia (or
      Duklja) were parts of Serbia. In a same time we have one serbian dinasty
      in Bosnia (you can check it in Grumel's La Chronologie, Paris 1958, pg.
      389-393) - Kotromanics. But Kotromanics were a long time vasals of
      Hungarian kings and Serbs in Bosnia wasn't olny ortodox (like in
      Raska-Serbia), but and heretics (Bogumils) and catholic. After the end
      of Nemanic dynasty (1371) the greatest Bosnian king Tvrtko I (member of
      Kotromanic dinasy and cousin of Nemanics) took from, powerless and
      separated by barons, Serbian state Pagania, Zahumlje, Travunia and one
      part of Serbia and in 1377. crowned himself
      in serbian monastery Mileseva (where was the tomb of first serbian
      archibishop St. Sava) for "king of Bosnians and Sebs". He sad: "I saw
      land of my parents [sc. Nemanics] waste and without shepherd, and I went
      in Serbian land to reestabilish it". The Ottoman Turks invaded Bosnia in
      1386 (after Tvrtko's death), and after many battles it became a Turkish
      province in 1463. Hum (or Zahumlje) held out longer under rulers who
      styled temselves herceg ("duke") of St. Sava (first serbian archibishop)
      - a name recalled today in Herzegovina. Under Turks regin Bogumils
      (today Bosnians Muslims) are converted in Islam faith. About Serbs on
      Kosovo you can also read in Konstantin Jirecek's Geschichte des Serben,
      George Ostrogorsky's History of Byzantium, Gojko Subotic's Terra sacra
      or Sima Cirkovic's Serbs im middle ages. Do you know who are this
      people? If you want more historical sources about Kosovo read Ana
      Comnina, Demetrius Chomatian, Nicetas Choniates, Jean Cantacusen, Duca,
      Critovule, Laonic Chalcochondile... (I apoligoze if my spelling are
      incorect).
      Where was your conscience when Albanian's terorist animals (NOT
      Albanian people!) raped shollgirls and nuns and killed monks and old
      man. If we have today ours animals who do that, we HAVE to punish they!

      This is non-government page, this monks live there in monastery from
      14th century. You can ask Fr. Sava about all historical and current
      political questions. Page is in English too.
      http://www.decani.yunet.com/glavna.html

      I apologize to other listmembers. It will be my last e-mail.

      best wishes from Belgrade and Sebia,

      Alexander
      --
      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
      * ~ Aleksandar Milanovic ~ FOR after that in the wisdom of *
      * ~ student of History ~ God the world by wisdom knew not God, *
      * ~ Faculty of Philosophy ~ it pleased God by foolishness of *
      * ~ Belgrade, Serbia ~ preaching to save them that belive... *
      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    • Jon Peter
      Aleksandar, surely you do not condone Kosovo atrocities based on Medieval history? Regards, Jon
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 3, 1999
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        Aleksandar, surely you do not condone Kosovo atrocities based on Medieval
        history?

        Regards,

        Jon


        > You are waching to much CNN. What you know about history of Kosovo and
        > Metochia throught centuries, apart of TV stories. Did your grandfathers
        > live there like my. Have you ever been on Kosovo and have you ever seen
        > land and people there. Kosovo and Metohija (do you know what means
        > 'Metohija' or 'Methochy') is NOT comunist fiction. It is historical
        > serbian land. We took that land NOT from Ilirs (or Albanians, but it is
        > NOT same!), but from Romans (Byzantium) like other europian people, and
        > we live there IN CONTINUING more than 1300 years. Read first Turkish
        > (not Serbian!) census of Brankovic's domain (main part of Kosovo and
        > Metochia) in 1455. There was 97% of serbian population. Now it is on
        > Kosovo and Metohija Albanian majority because Turks islamic persecutions
        > in all Balkans lands (1453-1912), nazy "Great Albania's" teror during
        > Second World War, and comunist anti-serbian politic (1945-?). But and
        > TODAY we are living there! Read not serbian, read independent history
        > sources about Kosovo and Metohija, and you'll learn something better
        > than current US government's and CNN's politics. Have you ever read
        > Porphirogenit's De administrando Imperio (DAI)? It's prime suorce for
        > early Croatian and Serbian history from 10th century. You can find there
        > many availables details for teritories in which they lived and still
        > live (cap. 29-36). In Middle Ages there wasn't one national state for
        > one people. Germans, Franch, Russians, Srebs lived a long time in
        > several states. By DAI Serbs live in Serbia (which part is and Bosnia -
        > check it!), Pagania (today one Croatian part of Dalmatia, between Cetina
        > and Neretva river), Zahumlje (today mostly part of Herzegovina),
        > Travunia (today part of Herzegovina), and Diocitia (today mostly
        > Montenegro). In c. 950 (after archont Chaslav) Serbia was separated (by
        > Hungarian attacks) on two parts: Bosnia and Raska (or Serbia). During
        > Nemanic dynasty (1166-1371) Pagaia, Zaumlje, Travunia and Dioklitia (or
        > Duklja) were parts of Serbia. In a same time we have one serbian dinasty
        > in Bosnia (you can check it in Grumel's La Chronologie, Paris 1958, pg.
        > 389-393) - Kotromanics. But Kotromanics were a long time vasals of
        > Hungarian kings and Serbs in Bosnia wasn't olny ortodox (like in
        > Raska-Serbia), but and heretics (Bogumils) and catholic. After the end
        > of Nemanic dynasty (1371) the greatest Bosnian king Tvrtko I (member of
        > Kotromanic dinasy and cousin of Nemanics) took from, powerless and
        > separated by barons, Serbian state Pagania, Zahumlje, Travunia and one
        > part of Serbia and in 1377. crowned himself
        > in serbian monastery Mileseva (where was the tomb of first serbian
        > archibishop St. Sava) for "king of Bosnians and Sebs". He sad: "I saw
        > land of my parents [sc. Nemanics] waste and without shepherd, and I went
        > in Serbian land to reestabilish it". The Ottoman Turks invaded Bosnia in
        > 1386 (after Tvrtko's death), and after many battles it became a Turkish
        > province in 1463. Hum (or Zahumlje) held out longer under rulers who
        > styled temselves herceg ("duke") of St. Sava (first serbian archibishop)
        > - a name recalled today in Herzegovina. Under Turks regin Bogumils
        > (today Bosnians Muslims) are converted in Islam faith. About Serbs on
        > Kosovo you can also read in Konstantin Jirecek's Geschichte des Serben,
        > George Ostrogorsky's History of Byzantium, Gojko Subotic's Terra sacra
        > or Sima Cirkovic's Serbs im middle ages. Do you know who are this
        > people? If you want more historical sources about Kosovo read Ana
        > Comnina, Demetrius Chomatian, Nicetas Choniates, Jean Cantacusen, Duca,
        > Critovule, Laonic Chalcochondile... (I apoligoze if my spelling are
        > incorect).
        > Where was your conscience when Albanian's terorist animals (NOT
        > Albanian people!) raped shollgirls and nuns and killed monks and old
        > man. If we have today ours animals who do that, we HAVE to punish they!
        >
        > This is non-government page, this monks live there in monastery from
        > 14th century. You can ask Fr. Sava about all historical and current
        > political questions. Page is in English too.
        > http://www.decani.yunet.com/glavna.html
        >
        > I apologize to other listmembers. It will be my last e-mail.
        >
        > best wishes from Belgrade and Sebia,
        >
        > Alexander
        > --
        > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
        > * ~ Aleksandar Milanovic ~ FOR after that in the wisdom of *
        > * ~ student of History ~ God the world by wisdom knew not God, *
        > * ~ Faculty of Philosophy ~ it pleased God by foolishness of *
        > * ~ Belgrade, Serbia ~ preaching to save them that belive... *
        > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
        >
        >
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... So as not to tax the list with this off-topic discussion, I will reply privately. Jack --
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 3, 1999
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          Aleksandar Milanovic wrote:
          >
          > Jack Kilmon wrote:
          >
          > > If he does, he will liken Milosevic and his military henchmen as
          > > a "pit of vipers" and will immediately (euqes) depart to Kosovo
          > > and say to the Albanian Kosovars:
          > >
          > > TOObehon l'miskNAya, deDILehon malKOOtha dishMAya
          > > <Aramaic for> Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom
          > > of Heaven>
          > > and
          > > TOObehon demitABelin, deHINun mitnaHAmin
          > > <Aramaic for> Blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted.
          > >
          > > He will weep over the thousands of men, women and children murdered
          > > in the Serbian holocaust.
          >
          > Dear collague,
          >
          > You are waching to much CNN. What you know about history of Kosovo and
          > Metochia throught centuries, apart of TV stories. Did your grandfathers
          > live there like my. Have you ever been on Kosovo and have you ever seen
          > land and people there. Kosovo and Metohija (do you know what means
          > 'Metohija' or 'Methochy') is NOT comunist fiction. It is historical
          > serbian land. We took that land NOT from Ilirs (or Albanians,..etc

          <rest of reply deleted for brevity>

          So as not to tax the list with this off-topic discussion, I will reply
          privately.

          Jack
          --
          ______________________________________________

          taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon

          Jack Kilmon
          jkilmon@...

          http://www.historian.net
        • Anne Quast
          ... While this discussion is not strictly on topic, perhaps by Alexsandar s logic the Indians should start massacring the white people living in America. They
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 4, 1999
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            At 20:00 3/04/1999 -0800, Jon Peter wrote:
            >Aleksandar, surely you do not condone Kosovo atrocities based on Medieval
            >history?
            >
            >Regards,
            >
            >Jon
            >
            While this discussion is not strictly on topic, perhaps by Alexsandar's
            logic the Indians should start massacring the white people living in
            America. They haven't been there as long as the Albanian Muslims have been
            in Kosovo!
          • Stevan Davies
            I ve no sympathy for those who would keep their email inboxes clean of messages from Aleksandar Milanovic. He s already given me great insight into the mindset
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 4, 1999
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              I've no sympathy for those who would keep their email inboxes
              clean of messages from Aleksandar Milanovic. He's already
              given me great insight into the mindset of his Serbian people and
              that's far more valuable to me than the ability to access the
              Ian/Anti-Ian bickering a microsecond sooner.

              Was it not the case that the messiah was expected to conduct
              ethnic cleansing in Israel? To bring about a purely Jewish realm
              there with gentiles and idol worshippers gone?

              And is it just me, or are others reminded of the exodus of
              Muslim Palestinians from the Jewish State of Israel fifty years
              ago? I believe, having exited, their homes and
              lands became the property of Jews who (with the unquestioning
              support of America) have lived their ever since... while the
              Palestinians have been in refugee camps over the border.
              But, no doubt, as I've been told by American media,
              this was entirely their own fault!

              I look forward to hearing how the ethnic right to Palestine
              by Jewish people is so wholly different than the ethnic right
              to Kosovo by Serbian people.

              Aleksandar Milanovic wrote
              > You are waching to much CNN. What you know about history of Kosovo and
              > Metochia throught centuries, apart of TV stories. Did your grandfathers
              > live there like my. Have you ever been on Kosovo and have you ever seen
              > land and people there. Kosovo and Metohija (do you know what means
              > 'Metohija' or 'Methochy') is NOT comunist fiction. It is historical
              > serbian land. We took that land NOT from Ilirs (or Albanians, but it is
              > NOT same!), but from Romans (Byzantium) like other europian people, and
              > we live there IN CONTINUING more than 1300 years.
              [SNIP]
              > Where was your conscience when Albanian's terorist animals (NOT
              > Albanian people!) raped shollgirls and nuns and killed monks and old
              > man. If we have today ours animals who do that, we HAVE to punish they!

              > I apologize to other listmembers. It will be my last e-mail.
              >
              > best wishes from Belgrade and Sebia,
              >
              > Alexander

              Don't apologize to me, or Bill Arnal, or others who are intensely
              interested in your perspectives and experiences. Do write more.
              Those disinterested can click the delete button.

              Steve
            • Lewis Reich
              ... Although this is clearly beyond the purview of Crosstalk, it cannot go unanswered. ... Much like the situation of the 800,00 Jews who left Muslim countries
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 4, 1999
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                On 4 Apr 99, at 18:21, Stevan Davies wrote:

                > And is it just me, or are others reminded of the exodus of Muslim
                > Palestinians from the Jewish State of Israel fifty years ago?

                Although this is clearly beyond the purview of Crosstalk, it cannot go unanswered.

                > I believe, having exited, their homes and lands became the
                > property of Jews

                Much like the situation of the 800,00 Jews who left Muslim countries
                for Israel, and were forced to leave behind their homes and lands and
                property.

                > who (with the unquestioning support of America)

                It is commonly asserted that Israel enjoyed "unquestioning" U.S.
                support, I should point out that from just after the UN vote for
                partition until after the June, 1967 war, Israel enjoyed very little
                US support indeed. (See, among others, J. Bowyer Bell's "The Long
                War".)

                > have lived their ever since...

                Much as the homes of the 800,000 Jewish refugees from Egypt, Iraq,
                Morocco, etc. are now occupied by people who paid them no
                compensation.

                > while the Palestinians have been in refugee camps over the border.

                Because their hosts, who rejected the UN partition resolution and
                invaded Israel refused to resettle them and (with the exception of
                Jordan) refused to grant them citizenship. Perhaps the most apt
                comparison might be with the partition of India into the two states
                of (predominantly) Hindu India and (predominantly)Muslim Pakistan,
                which occurred around the same time as the partition of Palestine and
                occasioned the displacement of far greater numbers of people. Those
                displaced by that partition no longer live in refugee camps because
                the partition was accepted by both sides and the refugees were
                resettled.

                > But, no doubt, as I've been told by American media,
                > this was entirely their own fault!

                I don't know what American media you've been getting your ideas from,
                Steve, but I haven't seen any recently that weren't sympathetic to
                the tragic plight of the refugees in the camps.

                Lewis Reich
                LBR@...
              • Stevan Davies
                ... Yes, I suppose. One might ask questions of cause and effect here, were they forced to leave before the Palestinian Muslims were, or afterwards... but in
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 4, 1999
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                  > From: "Lewis Reich"
                  > > And is it just me, or are others reminded of the exodus of Muslim
                  > > Palestinians from the Jewish State of Israel fifty years ago?
                  >
                  > Although this is clearly beyond the purview of Crosstalk, it cannot go unanswered.
                  >
                  > > I believe, having exited, their homes and lands became the
                  > > property of Jews
                  >
                  > Much like the situation of the 800,00 Jews who left Muslim countries
                  > for Israel, and were forced to leave behind their homes and lands and
                  > property.

                  Yes, I suppose. One might ask questions of cause and effect here,
                  were they forced to leave before the Palestinian Muslims were, or
                  afterwards... but in any event it's a bit of a tu quoque argument.
                  Which is to say, "our actions are justified because they do it too."
                  And Alexander made just this point on behalf of the Serbs with his
                  memorable:

                  > Where was your conscience when Albanian's terorist animals (NOT
                  > Albanian people!) raped shollgirls and nuns and killed monks and old
                  > man. If we have today ours animals who do that, we HAVE to punish they!

                  In other words, since they did it, we do it.

                  > It is commonly asserted that Israel enjoyed "unquestioning" U.S.
                  > support, I should point out that from just after the UN vote for
                  > partition until after the June, 1967 war, Israel enjoyed very little
                  > US support indeed.

                  $5,000,000.000.00 per year is the figure I've heard. But it's not
                  relevant to the main discussion one way or the other.

                  > > have lived their ever since...
                  >
                  > Much as the homes of the 800,000 Jewish refugees from Egypt, Iraq,
                  > Morocco, etc. are now occupied by people who paid them no
                  > compensation.

                  Again, I gather the argument is "we are justified because they do it
                  too" which I think underlies Alexander's position in places as well.

                  > > while the Palestinians have been in refugee camps over the border.
                  >
                  > Because their hosts, who rejected the UN partition resolution and
                  > invaded Israel refused to resettle them and (with the exception of
                  > Jordan) refused to grant them citizenship. Perhaps the most apt
                  > comparison might be with the partition of India into the two states
                  > of (predominantly) Hindu India and (predominantly)Muslim Pakistan,
                  > which occurred around the same time as the partition of Palestine and
                  > occasioned the displacement of far greater numbers of people. Those
                  > displaced by that partition no longer live in refugee camps because
                  > the partition was accepted by both sides and the refugees were
                  > resettled.

                  Very well. And the analogy with present events will be that the
                  Kosovo Albanians are properly being expelled from the Terra Sacra of
                  the Serbs... as the Palestinians by the Jews. Accordingly, the
                  Macedonians and Albanians have the responsibility to incorporate
                  them into their nations and the actual moral judgements required are
                  only to discern whether the Macedonians and Albanians do this
                  (as did Packistanis e.g.) or not (as the Lebanese e.g.).

                  > > But, no doubt, as I've been told by American media,
                  > > this was entirely their own fault!
                  >
                  > I don't know what American media you've been getting your ideas from,
                  > Steve, but I haven't seen any recently that weren't sympathetic to
                  > the tragic plight of the refugees in the camps.

                  Every word I have heard from any source is precisely the same (with
                  the exception of Alexander's) and the tragic plight of the Kosovar
                  refugees is incessantly detailed. As for the tragic plight of the
                  Palestinians in the camps, I have heard incessantly that these people
                  are terrorists and deserve the bombing they receive from Israel.

                  I note that you have ignored my main point, however, which is the
                  analogy between Terra Sacra being reclaimed by Serbia and the Holy
                  Land being reclaimed by Jews. Are you conceding it?

                  Steve
                • Lewis Reich
                  ... ... ... ... ... ... I beg to differ - I did not make a tu quoque argument here. I did not suggest that one side was justified
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 4, 1999
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                    On 4 Apr 99, at 21:24, Stevan Davies wrote:

                    > > From: "Lewis Reich"

                    <SD>
                    > > > And is it just me, or are others reminded of the exodus of Muslim
                    > > > Palestinians from the Jewish State of Israel fifty years ago?
                    > >
                    <LBR>
                    > > Although this is clearly beyond the purview of Crosstalk, it cannot go unanswered.
                    > >
                    <SD>
                    > > > I believe, having exited, their homes and lands became the
                    > > > property of Jews
                    > >
                    <LBR>
                    > > Much like the situation of the 800,00 Jews who left Muslim countries
                    > > for Israel, and were forced to leave behind their homes and lands and
                    > > property.
                    <SD>
                    > Yes, I suppose. One might ask questions of cause and effect here,
                    > were they forced to leave before the Palestinian Muslims were, or
                    > afterwards... but in any event it's a bit of a tu quoque argument.
                    > Which is to say, "our actions are justified because they do it too."

                    I beg to differ - I did not make a tu quoque argument here. I did
                    not suggest that one side was justified because the other did it too.
                    I was making the point that where populations are intermingled,
                    partition often results in refugees, as in the case of the partition
                    of India. Were I making the tu quoque argument, I would have pointed
                    out that in those areas of mandatory Palestine that were conquered by
                    Arab armies, the Jewish population was either killed or expelled
                    (e.g. eastern Jerusalem, the Etzion kibbutzim). No Jews were allowed
                    to remain in either the West Bank or the Gza strip.


                    > And Alexander made just this point on behalf of the Serbs with his
                    > memorable:
                    >
                    > > Where was your conscience when Albanian's terorist animals (NOT
                    > > Albanian people!) raped shollgirls and nuns and killed monks and old
                    > > man. If we have today ours animals who do that, we HAVE to punish they!
                    >
                    > In other words, since they did it, we do it.

                    As noted above that was not the argument I made.

                    <LBR>
                    > > It is commonly asserted that Israel enjoyed "unquestioning" U.S.
                    > > support, I should point out that from just after the UN vote for
                    > > partition until after the June, 1967 war, Israel enjoyed very little
                    > > US support indeed.

                    <SD>
                    > $5,000,000.000.00 per year is the figure I've heard. But it's not
                    > relevant to the main discussion one way or the other.

                    I stand by my assertion. The era of substantial US military and
                    economic aid to Israel did not begin until after the 1967 war.
                    Consult any competent history. (I suggest J. Bowyer Bell's "The Long
                    War", Conor Cruise O'Brien's "The Siege" or Nadav Safran's "Israel:
                    The Embattled Ally".)

                    <SD>
                    > > > > have lived their ever since...

                    <LBR>
                    > > Much as the homes of the 800,000 Jewish refugees from Egypt,
                    > > Iraq, Morocco, etc. are now occupied by people who paid them
                    > > no compensation.

                    <SD>
                    > Again, I gather the argument is "we are justified because they do
                    > it too"

                    Again, you gather mistakenly. The argument is that in partition
                    exchanges of population tragically take place, and that those who
                    behave responsibly resettle them, rather than preserving their tragic
                    status as political pawns - see India for example. In this case,
                    there was a rougly equal number of refugees on each side, which many
                    people seem rather resolutely unware of.

                    <SD>
                    > > > while the Palestinians have been in refugee camps over the > >
                    > border.

                    <LBR>
                    >> Because their hosts, who rejected the UN partition resolution and
                    >> invaded Israel refused to resettle them and (with the exception
                    >> of Jordan) refused to grant them citizenship. Perhaps the most
                    >> apt comparison might be with the partition of India into the two
                    >> states of (predominantly) Hindu India and (predominantly)Muslim
                    >> Pakistan, which occurred around the same time as the partition of
                    >> Palestine and occasioned the displacement of far greater numbers
                    >> of people. Those displaced by that partition no longer live in
                    >> refugee camps because the partition was accepted by both sides
                    >> and the refugees were resettled.

                    <SD>
                    > Very well. And the analogy with present events will be that the
                    > Kosovo Albanians are properly being expelled from the Terra Sacra
                    > of the Serbs... as the Palestinians by the Jews.

                    That would not be the analogy, for three reasons. First, there seems
                    to me absolutely no justification for the Serb expulsion of the
                    Kosovar Albanians. Second, it is not at all irrelevant to the
                    outcome that the Arab side rejected the United Nations partition
                    resolution and sought to destroy the State of Israel by force of
                    arms. Third, although I do not wish to get deeper into a debate
                    irrelevant to Crosstalk, I do not agree that the Palestinians were
                    expelled by the Israelis. One who makes that argument must explain
                    why the Israelis did such a half-hearted job of it, leaving several
                    hundred thousand Arabs in Israel, while there were no Jews at all
                    left in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. There were well-documented
                    efforts by the Israelis to persuade the Arab population to stay, and
                    it is equally clear that atrocity propaganda by the Arab states
                    played a significant role in encouraging the Palestinian Arabs to
                    flee. (See Conor Cruise O'Brien's "The Siege" (p. 282).)

                    <SD>
                    > Accordingly, the Macedonians and Albanians have the responsibility
                    > to incorporate them into their nations and the actual moral
                    > judgements required are only to discern whether the Macedonians
                    > and Albanians do this (as did Packistanis e.g.) or not (as the
                    > Lebanese e.g.).

                    This is the debating tactic known as "putting words in the other
                    side's mouth". I suggested nothing at all along these lines. My
                    whole purpose, in fact, in commenting on your post, was to
                    distinguish the Arab-Israeli conflict from the Balkans. I responded
                    to your attempt to analogize them which, from the way it was
                    presented, seemed to serve no other purpose than to demonize and
                    attack Israel.

                    <SD>
                    > > > > But, no doubt, as I've been told by American media,
                    > > > > this was entirely their own fault!

                    <LBR>
                    > > > I don't know what American media you've been getting your
                    > > > ideas from, Steve, but I haven't seen any recently that
                    > > > weren't sympathetic to the tragic plight of the refugees in >
                    > > the camps.

                    <SD>
                    > Every word I have heard from any source is precisely the same
                    > (with the exception of Alexander's) and the tragic plight of the
                    > Kosovar refugees is incessantly detailed. As for the tragic plight
                    > of the Palestinians in the camps, I have heard incessantly that
                    > these people are terrorists and deserve the bombing they receive
                    > from Israel.

                    I have yet to see any account in major American media that says
                    anything of the sort. Can you cite one? I see sympathetic reports of
                    the plight of Palestininas in the camps, and considerably less
                    sympathetic reports on terrorists. I have yet to see any American
                    reportage that suggests that non-combatant refugees deserve to be
                    bombed.

                    <SD>
                    > > I note that you have ignored my main point, however, which is the
                    > > analogy between Terra Sacra being reclaimed by Serbia and the
                    > > Holy Land being reclaimed by Jews. Are you conceding it?

                    Certainly not. And you should bear in mind that the expression "Holy
                    Land" is Christian rather than Jewish. There is no point in getting
                    deeper involved in a debate that has nothing to do with Crosstalk.
                    However, I will point out that Zionism did not claim "ethnic rights"
                    to Palestine. The jewish national movement, Zionism sought to
                    establish a Jewish state, was deeply divided over the British offer
                    of land in Uganda. However, it was to the historical land of Israel
                    that the Jewish people had emotional and historical ties. Zionism
                    aimed to achieve diplomatic agreement for Jewish settlement in that
                    land, and succeeded. Land was acquired by purchase, not by conquest.
                    It was Arab refusal to accept the terms of the partition resolution
                    that led to war. How can you compare the record of the Jewish
                    national movement to today's Serbian atrocities?

                    Lewis Reich
                    LBR@...
                  • Lewis Reich
                    ... I look forward to someone explaining to me how the injection of these anti-Jewish insinuations, totally irrelevant to a topic already itself irrelevant to
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 4, 1999
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On 4 Apr 99, at 18:21, Stevan Davies wrote:

                      > Was it not the case that the messiah was expected to conduct ethnic
                      > cleansing in Israel? To bring about a purely Jewish realm there
                      > with gentiles and idol worshippers gone?.... I look forward to hearing
                      > how the ethnic right to Palestine by Jewish people is so wholly
                      > different than the ethnic right to Kosovo by Serbian people.

                      I look forward to someone explaining to me how the injection of these
                      anti-Jewish insinuations, totally irrelevant to a topic already
                      itself irrelevant to Crosstalk, can be justified.

                      As I noted in an earlier post, the Jewish national movement did not
                      assert any "ethnic right" to the land. It sought a place where Jew s
                      could live unmolested by prejudice and safely express their own
                      culture. To that end it considered proposals for locales other than
                      the historic land of Israel. It sought to achieve these ends by
                      diplomatic agreement, not military force. Like the Kosovar
                      Albanians, Jews in Mandatory Palestines acquired their homes and land
                      legally and peacefully by purchase, not by force of arms.

                      If you want to analogize the Middle East to Kosovo and Serbia,
                      perhaps you an explain to me why the appropriate analogy to the
                      Serbian "ethnic cleansing" of Kosovo wouldn't be the Arab attempts to
                      eradicate the newly-declared state of Israel in 1948? Do you doubt
                      that if the Kosovar Albanians had managed to successfully resist the
                      Serbs that an exodus of Serbs from Kosovo would have followed? Would
                      it then be the fault of the Kosovar Albanians if Serbia kept those
                      refugees in camps indefinitely?

                      Lewis Reich
                      LBR@...
                    • joe baxter
                      Steve s argument is absurd. The creation of the Israeli state is a complex moral issue. I share some of Steve s concerns about the fairness of the solution.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 4, 1999
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Steve's argument is absurd. The creation of the Israeli state is a complex
                        moral issue. I share some of Steve's concerns about the fairness of the
                        solution. The idea of taking people's homes and property without
                        compensation is unjust. But it happened. And if it was wrong, should we
                        repeat our mistakes? And in any case, it has nothing to do with the barbaric
                        methods employed by the Serbs. Absolutely nothing can justify that.

                        Sure, the Muslims have committed their own atrocities. But apparently that
                        is not the center of what is happening now. So why confuse the issue. No
                        amount of wrongs in the past can justify what the Serbs are doing now.

                        On the Israel issue, I would appreciate any recommendations for a highly
                        readable, but balanced treatment of the history of the creation of the
                        Jewish state, and the aftermath. By balanced, I mean a treatment which
                        recognizes the obvious injustices done to Palestinians , along with the
                        good achieved by the creation of the Jewish state.

                        With kind regards,

                        Joe
                      • Antonio Jerez
                        Lewis Reich wrote: ... ...
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 5, 1999
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Lewis Reich wrote:

                          <LBR>
                          > > It is commonly asserted that Israel enjoyed "unquestioning" U.S.
                          > > support, I should point out that from just after the UN vote for
                          > > partition until after the June, 1967 war, Israel enjoyed very little
                          > > US support indeed.

                          <SD>
                          > $5,000,000.000.00 per year is the figure I've heard. But it's not
                          > relevant to the main discussion one way or the other.

                          <<I stand by my assertion. The era of substantial US military and
                          <<economic aid to Israel did not begin until after the 1967 war.
                          <<Consult any competent history. (I suggest J. Bowyer Bell's "The Long
                          <<War", Conor Cruise O'Brien's "The Siege" or Nadav Safran's "Israel:
                          <<The Embattled Ally".)


                          I have to side with Lewis on this matter. It is true that the US government
                          was not particularly supportive of Israel before the 60ies. In fact it does
                          appear that the top brass at the US State Department was heavily against
                          the idea of the creation of a Jewish state in 1947. As far as I remember the
                          defense secretary gen. George Marshall advised Harry Truman not to cave
                          in to the demands of the strong Jewish lobby in the USA since he argued that
                          a Jewish state in Palestine would antagonise the Arab states and threaten
                          longterm US interests in the Middle East. The US State Departments ambivalence
                          about Israel continued well into the 50ies and 60ies.

                          > > > while the Palestinians have been in refugee camps over the > >
                          > border.

                          <LBR>
                          >> Because their hosts, who rejected the UN partition resolution and
                          >> invaded Israel refused to resettle them and (with the exception
                          >> of Jordan) refused to grant them citizenship. Perhaps the most
                          >> apt comparison might be with the partition of India into the two
                          >> states of (predominantly) Hindu India and (predominantly)Muslim
                          >> Pakistan, which occurred around the same time as the partition of
                          >> Palestine and occasioned the displacement of far greater numbers
                          >> of people. Those displaced by that partition no longer live in
                          >> refugee camps because the partition was accepted by both sides
                          >> and the refugees were resettled.

                          <SD>
                          > Very well. And the analogy with present events will be that the
                          > Kosovo Albanians are properly being expelled from the Terra Sacra
                          > of the Serbs... as the Palestinians by the Jews.

                          <<That would not be the analogy, for three reasons. First, there seems
                          <<to me absolutely no justification for the Serb expulsion of the
                          <<Kosovar Albanians.

                          I agree that Lewis and I (and many others) may not find any
                          justification for the Serb expulsion of the Kosovar Albanians.
                          But from their own viewpoint I think the Zionists, the ultraortodox
                          Jews and the Serb nationalist extremists have similar arguments
                          in dealing with the Arab and the Albanian problem. The Zionists
                          claim that Palestine was Jewish land 2000 years ago and that they
                          therefore have a right to that land even today. Some ultraortodox
                          groups, like Gush Emunim, back up that claim by pointing to the Torah
                          and specific promises from Jahwe. The Serbs on their hand claim that
                          Kosovo is theirs by historical right since they conquered the province
                          1300 years ago and were a majority there for most of those centuries.
                          According to the Serbs most Albanians are later intruders who have
                          no right to the land.


                          >> Second, it is not at all irrelevant to the
                          >>outcome that the Arab side rejected the United Nations partition
                          resolution and sought to destroy the State of Israel by force of
                          arms. Third, although I do not wish to get deeper into a debate
                          irrelevant to Crosstalk, I do not agree that the Palestinians were
                          expelled by the Israelis. One who makes that argument must explain
                          why the Israelis did such a half-hearted job of it, leaving several
                          hundred thousand Arabs in Israel, while there were no Jews at all
                          left in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. There were well-documented
                          efforts by the Israelis to persuade the Arab population to stay, and
                          >>it is equally clear that atrocity propaganda by the Arab states
                          >>played a significant role in encouraging the Palestinian Arabs to
                          >>flee. (See Conor Cruise O'Brien's "The Siege" (p. 282).)

                          This is a highly debatable issue. I think there are also welldocumented
                          examples of Jewish extremists like Jabotinsky already in the 30ies and
                          40ies making up plans for a Jewish state without any Arabs whatsoever.

                          <SD>
                          > > > > But, no doubt, as I've been told by American media,
                          > > > > this was entirely their own fault!

                          <LBR>
                          > > > I don't know what American media you've been getting your
                          > > > ideas from, Steve, but I haven't seen any recently that
                          > > > weren't sympathetic to the tragic plight of the refugees in >
                          > > the camps.

                          <SD>
                          > Every word I have heard from any source is precisely the same
                          > (with the exception of Alexander's) and the tragic plight of the
                          > Kosovar refugees is incessantly detailed. As for the tragic plight
                          > of the Palestinians in the camps, I have heard incessantly that
                          > these people are terrorists and deserve the bombing they receive
                          > from Israel.

                          >>I have yet to see any account in major American media that says
                          >>anything of the sort. Can you cite one? I see sympathetic reports of
                          >>the plight of Palestininas in the camps, and considerably less
                          >>sympathetic reports on terrorists. I have yet to see any American
                          >>reportage that suggests that non-combatant refugees deserve to be
                          >>bombed.

                          Have to agree with Lewis again against Stevan. I'm a journalist
                          myself and follow closely the international media. What Stevan
                          is saying may have been right in the 60ies and 70ies, but not
                          today. I think CNN has been covering the Palestinians quite
                          sympathetically these last few years. In the European media
                          the sympathies for the Palestians are even more pronounced -
                          here the Israelis are mostly painted as the villains.

                          <SD>
                          > > I note that you have ignored my main point, however, which is the
                          > > analogy between Terra Sacra being reclaimed by Serbia and the
                          > > Holy Land being reclaimed by Jews. Are you conceding it?

                          <<Certainly not. And you should bear in mind that the expression "Holy
                          <<Land" is Christian rather than Jewish. There is no point in getting
                          deeper involved in a debate that has nothing to do with Crosstalk.
                          However, I will point out that Zionism did not claim "ethnic rights"
                          to Palestine. The jewish national movement, Zionism sought to
                          establish a Jewish state, was deeply divided over the British offer
                          of land in Uganda. However, it was to the historical land of Israel
                          that the Jewish people had emotional and historical ties. Zionism
                          aimed to achieve diplomatic agreement for Jewish settlement in that
                          land, and succeeded. Land was acquired by purchase, not by conquest.
                          It was Arab refusal to accept the terms of the partition resolution
                          <<that led to war. How can you compare the record of the Jewish
                          <<national movement to today's Serbian atrocities?

                          This description of the peaceable Zionist movement is highly
                          debatable. For another picture I would recommend a recent
                          book written by the Swedish journalist (and Jew himself) Goran
                          Rosenberg with the title "Det förlovade landet" (The promised
                          land). Rosenberg, who was himself an Israeli citizen and lived
                          for many years in Israel, has written an extremely interesting
                          and welldocumented book that uncovers much of the lies that
                          are at the bottom of the Zionist propaganda myth about the
                          creation of the Jewish state. I think he has shown quite convincingly
                          that a some of the Zionist leaders were planning a policy of
                          ethnic cleanising of the Arab population well in advance of 1949.
                          He also shows very clearly that the Israeli Arabs have always
                          been secondclass citizens in Israel. The stealing of their ancestral
                          lands, not the least in the Galilee, has been done in a very brutal and
                          unfair way by the Israeli authorities. This statesponsored stealing
                          of arab land still continues on the West Bank.

                          Best wishes

                          Antonio Jerez
                        • Stephen C. Carlson
                          ... You ask whether we should repeat our mistakes in Kosovo. Vietnam was a mistake. Stephen Carlson -- Stephen C. Carlson
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 5, 1999
                          • 0 Attachment
                            At 10:49 PM 4/4/99 -0700, joe baxter wrote:
                            >Steve's argument is absurd. The creation of the Israeli state is a complex
                            >moral issue. I share some of Steve's concerns about the fairness of the
                            >solution. The idea of taking people's homes and property without
                            >compensation is unjust. But it happened. And if it was wrong, should we
                            >repeat our mistakes? And in any case, it has nothing to do with the barbaric
                            >methods employed by the Serbs. Absolutely nothing can justify that.

                            You ask whether we should repeat our mistakes in Kosovo. Vietnam was a
                            mistake.

                            Stephen Carlson
                            --
                            Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                            Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
                            "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
                          • Michael Davies
                            ... Good luck on your quest for balanced. For an account that more or less argues the position I ve spoken for, one utilizing copious source materials rather
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 5, 1999
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > On the Israel issue, I would appreciate any recommendations for a highly
                              > readable, but balanced treatment of the history of the creation of the
                              > Jewish state, and the aftermath. By balanced, I mean a treatment which
                              > recognizes the obvious injustices done to Palestinians , along with the
                              > good achieved by the creation of the Jewish state.

                              Good luck on your quest for "balanced."

                              For an account that more or less argues the position I've spoken
                              for, one utilizing copious source materials rather than just talk,
                              and which is IMO highly readable,

                              Chomsky, Noam. The fateful triangle : the United States, Israel and
                              the Palestinians / Noam Chomsky. Boston : South End Press, c1983.

                              Steve
                            • X:A. Fernández Canosa
                              ... As far as I know Marocco and the situation of Jews in Marocco, it´s not true. They have never been forced to leave Marocco. And those who leave Marocco
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 5, 1999
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Lewis Reich escribió:


                                > Much as the homes of the 800,000 Jewish refugees from Egypt, Iraq,
                                > Morocco, etc. are now occupied by people who paid them no
                                > compensation.

                                As far as I know Marocco and the situation of Jews in Marocco, it´s not
                                true. They have never been forced to leave Marocco. And those who leave
                                Marocco did it willingly and under the Israel's propaganda. After a few
                                years, many of them returned to Marocco or to Spain.

                                But... we are off-topic. Best wishes,

                                Anxo
                              • Lewis Reich
                                ... Quite true. There is almost certainly no account that would be regarded by partisans of both sides as balanced . ... Chomsky s work would certainly be a
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 5, 1999
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On 5 Apr 99, at 12:49, Stevan Davies wrote:

                                  > Good luck on your quest for "balanced."

                                  Quite true. There is almost certainly no account that would be
                                  regarded by partisans of both sides as "balanced".

                                  > For an account that more or less argues the position I've spoken
                                  > for, one utilizing copious source materials rather than just talk,
                                  > and which is IMO highly readable,
                                  >
                                  > Chomsky, Noam. The fateful triangle : the United States, Israel and

                                  > the Palestinians / Noam Chomsky. Boston : South End Press, c1983.

                                  Chomsky's work would certainly be a fine presentation of that
                                  viewpoint. He is a graceful and eloquent writer. I would also
                                  recomment the writings of Edward Said.

                                  For detailed treatment of the diplomatic and military history of the
                                  disintegration of the Mandate, the partition resolution, and the wars
                                  of independence and 1967, the best account I've read is J. Bowyer
                                  Bell's "The Long War" (1969). It may be difficult to find, but is
                                  well worth the search. Bell is a marvelous writer. For the military
                                  and diplomatic details of the period of Israel's formation, Bell is
                                  the best I've read. (He has also written an excellent history of the
                                  Irgun, "Terror Out of Zion".) Conor Cruise O'Brien's excellent "The
                                  Siege" (1986) is almost twice as long, and covers more territory.
                                  O'Brien (formerly Ireland's ambassador to the UN) deals with a larger
                                  perspective - he gives a very competent survey of the history of the
                                  Zionist movement and the Balfour declaration. J. C. Hurewitz's "The
                                  Struggle for Palestine" (1950, 1976) is a detailed account of the
                                  Palestinian Arab and Jewish politics (including detailed accoutns of
                                  the internal politics of both communities) during the British
                                  Mandate. The material on the internal politics of the Palestinian
                                  Arab community during the mandate is far more detailed than anything
                                  I have seen published in book form for a general reader elsewhere.
                                  Although these books I recommend above strike me as fairly even-
                                  handed, I think that ultimately O'Brien and Bell think that the
                                  creation of the State of Israel was justified.

                                  I would like to thank Antonio for his thoughtful response to my
                                  comments, and comment on one or two points.

                                  On 5 Apr 99, at 10:32, Antonio Jerez wrote:

                                  > I agree that Lewis and I (and many others) may not find any
                                  > justification for the Serb expulsion of the Kosovar Albanians. But
                                  > from their own viewpoint I think the Zionists, the ultraortodox
                                  > Jews and the Serb nationalist extremists have similar arguments in
                                  > dealing with the Arab and the Albanian problem.

                                  This covers quite a deal of ground. First, a major segment of the
                                  ultraorthodox community in Israel (from the Neturei Karta to Agudat
                                  Yisrael) ranges from virulently anti-Zionist to mildly hostile or
                                  indifferent. I wonder if Antonio is not confusing "ultraorthodox"
                                  with "stongly nationalistic". They are far from the same. (E.g.,
                                  the right-wing nationalistic Gush Emunim settlers movement is
                                  certainly orthodox in their religious observance, but would not
                                  qualify as "hareidi", a better term for what is often called the
                                  "ultraorthodox".

                                  > The Zionists claim that Palestine was Jewish land 2000 years ago
                                  > and that they therefore have a right to that land even today.

                                  As I have noted before, that has *not* in fact been the Zionist
                                  claim, although it may often be imputed to Zionism by people
                                  unfamiliar with Zionist history and writing.

                                  > Some ultraortodox groups, like Gush Emunim, back up that claim by
                                  > pointing to the Torah and specific promises from Jahwe.

                                  Gush Emunim may be extremely right wing politically, but they are
                                  not, as I noted above, "ultraorthodox". Their approach is *not at
                                  all* typical of mainstream Zionism. (In any event, what seems to me
                                  to matter is what the ideology and appeal of Zionism was in the
                                  period before 1947, not what fringe extremists preach today.)

                                  > I think there are also welldocumented examples of Jewish
                                  > extremists like Jabotinsky already in the 30ies and 40ies making up
                                  > plans for a Jewish state without any Arabs whatsoever.

                                  I would be interested to hear of any citations you have to any such
                                  plans by Jabotinsky. If he was, as you say, an extremist, then it
                                  would in any event by unfair to tar the whole Zionist movement by
                                  imputing his views to it.



                                  On 5 Apr 99, at 22:50, X:A. Fernández Canosa wrote:

                                  > Lewis Reich escribió:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > Much as the homes of the 800,000 Jewish refugees from Egypt, Iraq,
                                  > > Morocco, etc. are now occupied by people who paid them no
                                  > > compensation.
                                  >
                                  > As far as I know Marocco and the situation of Jews in Marocco, it´s not
                                  > true. They have never been forced to leave Marocco.

                                  I did not say that the Jews of Morocco were forced to leave. It was
                                  perhaps injudicious of me to use the word "refugees" which may have
                                  inadvertently given that impression. However, the status of Jews in
                                  Morocco, although better than in most other Muslim countries, can
                                  still be described as second-class at best. (See generally, Bernard
                                  Lewis, "The Jews of Islam".)

                                  > And those who leave Marocco did it willingly and under the
                                  > Israel's propaganda.

                                  It is quite true that those who left Morocco did so willingly. I
                                  think it far likelier that it was their second-class status , the
                                  traditional Jewish attachment to the land of Israel (traditional Jews
                                  pray daily for the ingathering of Jewish exiles), the establishment
                                  of an independent Jewish state that abolished restrictions on Jewish
                                  immigration, and the prospect of living free of historical
                                  restrictions, rather than "Israeli propaganda" that led to the
                                  migration. In 1948, about 238,00 Jews lived in French Morocco,
                                  15,000 in Spanish Morocco, and 12,000 in the international zone of
                                  Tangier. In 1968 an estimated 42,000 Jews lived in the whole of
                                  Morocco.

                                  > After a few years, many of them returned to Marocco or to Spain.

                                  How many? Have you any documentation of this assertion?

                                  > But... we are off-topic.

                                  Indeed.

                                  Lewis Reich
                                  LBR@...
                                • Lewis Reich
                                  ... Quite true. There is almost certainly no account that would be regarded by partisans of both sides as balanced . ... Chomsky s work would certainly be a
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 5, 1999
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On 5 Apr 99, at 12:49, Stevan Davies wrote:

                                    > Good luck on your quest for "balanced."

                                    Quite true. There is almost certainly no account that would be
                                    regarded by partisans of both sides as "balanced".

                                    > For an account that more or less argues the position I've spoken
                                    > for, one utilizing copious source materials rather than just talk,
                                    > and which is IMO highly readable,
                                    >
                                    > Chomsky, Noam. The fateful triangle : the United States, Israel and
                                    > the Palestinians / Noam Chomsky. Boston : South End Press, c1983.

                                    Chomsky's work would certainly be a fine presentation of that
                                    viewpoint. He is a graceful and eloquent writer. I would also
                                    recomment the writings of Edward Said.

                                    As for my recommendations, for detailed treatment of the diplomatic
                                    and military history of the disintegration of the Mandate, the
                                    partition resolution, and the wars of independence and 1967, the best
                                    account I've read is J. Bowyer Bell's "The Long War" (1969). It may
                                    be difficult to find, but is well worth the search. Bell is a
                                    marvelous writer. For the military and diplomatic details of the
                                    period of Israel's formation, Bell is the best I've read. (He has
                                    also written an excellent history of the Irgun, "Terror Out of
                                    Zion".) Conor Cruise O'Brien's excellent "The Siege" (1986) is almost
                                    twice as long, and covers more territory. O'Brien (formerly
                                    Ireland's ambassador to the UN) deals with a larger perspective - he
                                    gives a very competent survey of the history of the Zionist movement
                                    and the Balfour declaration. J. C. Hurewitz's "The Struggle for
                                    Palestine" (1950, 1976) is a detailed account of the Palestinian
                                    Arab and Jewish politics (including detailed accoutns of the internal
                                    politics of both communities) during the British Mandate. The
                                    material on the internal politics of the Palestinian Arab community
                                    during the mandate is far more detailed than anything I have seen
                                    published in book form for a general reader elsewhere. Although
                                    these books I recommend above strike me as fairly even- handed, I
                                    think that ultimately O'Brien and Bell think that the creation of the
                                    State of Israel was justified.

                                    I would like to thank Antonio for his thoughtful response to my
                                    comments, and comment on one or two points.

                                    On 5 Apr 99, at 10:32, Antonio Jerez wrote:

                                    > I agree that Lewis and I (and many others) may not find any
                                    > justification for the Serb expulsion of the Kosovar Albanians. But
                                    > from their own viewpoint I think the Zionists, the ultraortodox
                                    > Jews and the Serb nationalist extremists have similar arguments in
                                    > dealing with the Arab and the Albanian problem.

                                    This covers quite a deal of ground. First, a major segment of the
                                    ultraorthodox community in Israel (from the Neturei Karta to Agudat
                                    Yisrael) ranges from virulently anti-Zionist to mildly hostile or
                                    indifferent. I wonder if Antonio is not confusing "ultraorthodox"
                                    with "stongly nationalistic". They are far from the same. (E.g.,
                                    the right-wing nationalistic Gush Emunim settlers movement is
                                    certainly orthodox in their religious observance, but would not
                                    qualify as "hareidi", a better term for what is often called the
                                    "ultraorthodox".

                                    > The Zionists claim that Palestine was Jewish land 2000 years ago
                                    > and that they therefore have a right to that land even today.

                                    As I have noted before, that has *not* in fact been the Zionist
                                    claim, although it may often be imputed to Zionism by people
                                    unfamiliar with Zionist history and writing.

                                    > Some ultraortodox groups, like Gush Emunim, back up that claim by
                                    > pointing to the Torah and specific promises from Jahwe.

                                    Gush Emunim may be extremely right wing politically, but they are
                                    not, as I noted above, "ultraorthodox". Their approach is *not at
                                    all* typical of mainstream Zionism. (In any event, what seems to me
                                    to matter is what the ideology and appeal of Zionism was in the
                                    period before 1947, not what fringe extremists preach today.)

                                    > I think there are also well documented examples of Jewish
                                    > extremists like Jabotinsky already in the 30ies and 40ies making up
                                    > plans for a Jewish state without any Arabs whatsoever.

                                    I would be interested to hear of any citations you have to any such
                                    plans by Jabotinsky. In any event, if he was, as you say, an
                                    extremist, then it would be unfair to tar the whole Zionist movement
                                    by imputing his views to it.

                                    <LBR>
                                    >> Zionism aimed to achieve diplomatic agreement for Jewish
                                    >> settlement in that land, and succeeded. Land was acquired
                                    >> by purchase, not by conquest. It was Arab refusal to accept the
                                    >> terms of the partition resolution that led to war.

                                    <AJ>
                                    > This description of the peaceable Zionist movement is highly
                                    > debatable.

                                    What do you claim is inaccurate about my description?

                                    > For another picture I would recommend a recent
                                    > book written by the Swedish journalist (and Jew himself) Goran
                                    > Rosenberg with the title "Det förlovade landet" (The promised
                                    > land). Rosenberg, who was himself an Israeli citizen and lived
                                    > for many years in Israel, has written an extremely interesting
                                    > and welldocumented book that uncovers much of the lies that
                                    > are at the bottom of the Zionist propaganda myth about the
                                    > creation of the Jewish state. I think he has shown quite convincingly
                                    > that a some of the Zionist leaders were planning a policy of ethnic
                                    > cleanising of the Arab population well in advance of 1949.

                                    Even if this were true (I have not read the book), we can never know
                                    whether any such alleged policy would in fact have been carried out
                                    had the Arab states not rejected partition and invaded Israel. What
                                    we do know is that several hundred thousand Arabs remained in Israel
                                    after the conclusion of the armistice agreements, so that even during
                                    the war, Israel was not carrying out a policy of wholesale ethnic
                                    cleansing. At the same time, of course, no Jews were allowed to
                                    remain in areas of the Mandate under the control of the Arab armies.

                                    > He also shows very clearly that the Israeli Arabs have always been
                                    > secondclass citizens in Israel.

                                    This is not germane to the question of Zionist policy and ideology
                                    before the declaration of the state. (And, btw, of course Jews have
                                    always been second class citizens in Muslim states. I don't hear
                                    much concern about that, however, from those who criticize Israel.)

                                    > The stealing of their ancestral lands, not the least in the
                                    > Galilee, has been done in a very brutal and unfair way by the
                                    > Israeli authorities. This statesponsored stealing of arab land
                                    > still continues on the West Bank.

                                    Again, this is irrelevant to the question of Zionist policy and
                                    ideology before the declaration of the state.


                                    On 5 Apr 99, at 22:50, X:A. Fernández Canosa wrote:

                                    > Lewis Reich escribió:
                                    >
                                    <LBR>
                                    > > Much as the homes of the 800,000 Jewish refugees from Egypt,
                                    > > Iraq, Morocco, etc. are now occupied by people who paid them no
                                    > > compensation.
                                    <FC>
                                    > As far as I know Marocco and the situation of Jews in Marocco, it´s
                                    > not true. They have never been forced to leave Marocco.

                                    I did not say that the Jews of Morocco were forced to leave. It was
                                    perhaps injudicious of me to use the word "refugees" which may have
                                    inadvertently given that impression. However, the status of Jews in
                                    Morocco, although better than in most other Muslim countries, can
                                    still be described as second-class at best. (See generally, Bernard
                                    Lewis, "The Jews of Islam".)

                                    > And those who leave Marocco did it willingly and under the
                                    > Israel's propaganda.

                                    It is quite true that those who left Morocco did so willingly. I
                                    think it far likelier that it was their second-class status , the
                                    traditional Jewish attachment to the land of Israel (traditional Jews
                                    pray daily for the ingathering of Jewish exiles), the establishment
                                    of an independent Jewish state that abolished restrictions on Jewish
                                    immigration, and the prospect of living free of historical
                                    restrictions, rather than putative "Israeli propaganda" that led to
                                    the migration. In 1948, about 238,00 Jews lived in French Morocco,
                                    15,000 in Spanish Morocco, and 12,000 in the international zone of
                                    Tangier. In 1968 an estimated 42,000 Jews lived in the whole of
                                    Morocco.

                                    > After a few years, many of them returned to Marocco or to Spain.

                                    How many? Have you any documentation of this assertion?

                                    > But... we are off-topic.

                                    Indeed.

                                    Lewis Reich
                                    LBR@...
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