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Re: Earl's "brilliance" per Robt Price (complete)

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  • Ian Hutchesson
    Steve, I originally posted this list as it seemed to me quite insufficient to give any real indications of Paul s knowledge of the life of Jesus and was hoping
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 28, 1999
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      Steve,

      I originally posted this list as it seemed to me quite insufficient to give
      any real indications of Paul's knowledge of the life of Jesus and was
      hoping for some more from others to pad it out. I could have done just as
      you have, but I thought, if noone could add to it, it didn't need comment.


      Ian

      >> Romans 1:3-4
      >>
      >> 1Cor 11:23ff
      >>
      >> 1Cor 15:1ff
      >>
      >> 2Cor 8:9
    • Bill2200@aol.com
      I m posting messages less frequently than I was several weeks ago, and have no doubt that many people are grateful for this! And I ve been beaten to the punch
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 28, 1999
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        I'm posting messages less frequently than I was several weeks ago, and have no
        doubt that many people are grateful for this! And I've been beaten to the
        punch on this one too, but will still offer some thoughts.

        From David Engle:

        > Today Earl indignantly protested Stephen's slighting of his originality,
        and
        > defended himself thusly:

        I had no problem with Earl's defense in light of the inaccurate depiction of
        his work. But critics of Earl or his work are likely to react differently.

        > Earl, have you ever wondered why, during the 100+ yrs of "mythic Jesus"
        > scholarship you mentioned, neither Wells nor anyone else ventured to make
        > such a patently unsupportable and heavily contradicted claim?

        > The fact is that you have simply ignored the obvious epistolary evidence --
        > evidence which even fellow mythicists have seen?

        Ah, the "obvious" epistolary evidence people keep talking about but never can
        manage to produce.

        > Do you imagine yourself so much more "brilliant" than your predecessors
        that
        > you somehow discovered what they could not?

        He might be. If he is, we've all been given our chance to see the light!

        > Even Ian Hutchesson dashed-off a "liddle list" of Pauline claims of Jesus'
        > humanity.

        Hmmm...I'm reading over your post. Ian described these as "Paul's 'facts'
        regarding Jesus" and "indications of Jesus in the eyes of Paul", but does not
        say these are claims of Jesus' humanity. And perhaps one reason Earl didn't
        respond directly to this post is because the only examples which DO on the
        surface seem to hint at humanity were answered in other posts.

        > To refresh your memory I've included it below. Like all
        > contradictory evidences you simply ignored it earlier.

        David, put yourself in Earl's place. Do you have any idea what it's like for
        your work to be all the rage on the forum and how hard it is to keep up with
        the large number of posts? Can you be more forgiving if the man hopes to have
        a life outside of Crosstalk and misses a post you feel is important? This
        point is in addition to my point above, showing there was no need to reply
        directly to Ian's message.

        > You gave a long post
        > on Hebrews instead, which John DeGoes and others proceeded to shred for you
        > by showing that it, too, references Christ's humanity.

        Selective memory at work here? John showed examples of passages which, when
        observed in isolation and with gospel stories in your head, offer a human
        Jesus as the more probable interpretation. Earl showed that when you look at
        the WHOLE picture, his mythical interpretation is clearly preferable. His
        reply was Feb. 19. I leave it to you to read it.

        > FOLLOWING IS IAN HUTCHESSON'S POST ...
        >
        > In an effort to deal with the "man or myth" thread, I've put together a
        > liddle list of Paul's "facts" regarding Jesus. Can anyone add any more
        > examples of indications of Jesus in the eyes of Paul?
        > ---------------------------------------------
        >
        > Romans 1:3-4
        >
        > son of God
        > born of a descendant of David according to the flesh declared the son of
        God
        > with power by the resurrection from the dead
        > ---------------------------------------------

        I don't know the Greek, but will only add here that Earl likes the translation
        "of David's seed" or "of David's stock" better than a "descendant of David".

        > Gal 4:4
        >
        > God sent forth his son, born of a woman, born under the law
        > ---------------------------------------------

        I think Ian himself later criticized interpreting this as indicating a human
        (but don't have the post handy, so may be remembering wrong). Anyway, I've
        read that Dionysius was also born of a woman.

        Bill
      • Earl D
        ... The someone named Robert Price is a member of the Jesus Seminar and co-editor of the Journal of Higher Criticism at Drew University. ... I did not say
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 1, 1999
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          David Engle wrote:

          >At last Earl quotes someone name Robert Price who called Earl's discovery of
          >the non-human Jesus in the epistles "brilliant."

          The "someone named Robert Price" is a member of the Jesus Seminar and
          co-editor of the Journal of Higher Criticism at Drew University.

          >Earl, have you ever wondered why, during the 100+ yrs of "mythic Jesus"
          >scholarship you mentioned, neither Wells nor anyone else ventured to make
          >such a patently unsupportable and heavily contradicted claim?

          I did not say that no one has ever put forward a fully mythic Jesus. Wells,
          in fact, is as far as I know the first to offer this compromise position,
          earlier proponents of the theory mostly regarding Jesus as originally of a
          completely mythic nature.

          >Even Ian Hutchesson dashed-off a "liddle list" of Pauline claims of Jesus'
          >humanity. To refresh your memory I've included it below. Like all
          >contradictory evidences you simply ignored it earlier. You gave a long post
          >on Hebrews instead, which John DeGoes and others proceeded to shred for you
          >by showing that it, too, references Christ's humanity.

          I would say that John did nothing of the sort. He simply pointed to the
          same old tired indicators that, given Gospel preconceptions, he and others
          feel refer to an historical Gospel Jesus. John in fact had very little, if
          anything, to say in rebuttal to my own counter-analyses of these passages,
          such as the epistle's overall silence on the "voice" of the Gospel Son, or
          the obvious heavenly context of "oikumene" in 1:6, or 2:3 as a picture of a
          revelatory event, or the fact that every single so-called historical
          reference in Hebrews is based, in one way or another, on a scriptural
          passage (quite a phenomenon, don't you think?), and so on.

          >Earl, do you suppose you could muster some of that intellect to reply to
          >Ian's post now?

          As Bill has pointed out, I have at various times responded to these
          particular passages, including in the posting I just sent before this one.
          On Romans 1 and Galatians 4 I will not repeat myself here (and will also
          recommend a read of my Article No. 8, Christ as "Man", which deals with
          these and other similar passages at considerable length:
          <http://www.magi.com/~oblio/jesus/supp08.htm>). Stevan has also obligingly
          commented on many of them. But I will add a couple of comments of my own.

          >Romans 1:3-4
          >
          >son of God
          >born of a descendant of David according to the flesh declared the son of God
          >with power by the resurrection from the dead

          Here I will simply stress what leads into this quote: "Paul...set apart for
          the gospel of God, which he promised/announced beforehand through his
          prophets in the holy writings, the gospel concerning his Son, who was...(of
          David's stock, etc.) I can't envision a clearer statement that the
          "information" Paul provides about the Son comes from God's gospel imbedded
          in scripture. With that admission, all else is preconception.

          >1Cor 11:23ff
          >
          >Jesus on the night he was betrayed took bread
          >gave thanks, broke the bread
          >took wine

          As Stevan has pointed out, all this info came by direct revelation from the
          Lord himself, as 23a clearly announces. This in itself would imply that
          such info was NOT available through apostolic tradition, else Paul would be
          making an ass of himself by saying he got it from the Lord. (I discuss this
          whole question in my Article 7, "The Source of Paul's Gospel".)

          >2Cor 8:9
          >
          >though Christ was rich, for our sakes he became poor

          Why not take these sentiments as non-literal? After all, when was Christ
          ever "rich"? Instead, I would parallel them to the thought in the first
          verses of the Phil. 2 hymn. From the richness of full divinity and equality
          with God, Christ descended through the layers of heaven, taking on
          increasingly lower forms and semblances, thus becoming "poorer".
          One might compare a similar thought in Odes of Sol. 7:3f, and it is
          telling that here the Odist is addressing God: "He has generously shown
          himself to me in his simplicity / because his kindness has diminished his
          grandeur." Here the Odist is not introducing any historical figure who
          represents the form God has taken on. Rather, it is God himself who
          undergoes the transformation; it is God to whom the poet is relating, not
          Jesus. God, in approaching humanity with knowledge of himself allows
          humanity to understand him by assuming human conceptions. All philosophers
          believed that the true nature of God was utterly alien to anything the human
          mind could comprehend, and so he had to "translate himself" into concepts
          the material world was familiar with.

          I regret not having more time to make a greater number of replies, and more
          detailed ones, to the many comments that are being made (although I am sure
          there are many on this list who are happy that this is so). Bill is correct
          in suggesting that I have a life outside of HJ considerations, not the least
          because there is a new lady in it--one who is of Persian extraction, leading
          me to a mighty effort to learn the Persian language. And I thought Greek
          was tough!

          Best wishes,

          Earl Doherty
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