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Re: GThomas (Tom)

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  • Ian Hutchesson
    ... ordeal on ... since ... just ... Tom has this habit of becoming aphasic. Would you try, Tom, to read what you are commenting on before commenting? ... I
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 2, 1999
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      At 20.32 02/02/99 AST, Tom Simms wrote:
      >On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:41:40 +0100, antonio.jerez@... writes:
      >>Antonio Jerez wrote:
      >>>>Shahina,
      >
      > [... Snip ...]
      >
      >>After dying God resurrected him and gave him a new resurrection body that
      >>is not like normal bodies. There is no talk about Jesus surviving the
      ordeal on
      >>the cross and thereafter walking along with his normal body all the way to
      >>Kashmir. That is pure Ahmadiyya guesswork. You could just as well guess that
      >>he flew to Mars. The Ahmadiyya belief is neither supported by the Quran
      since
      >>Allah has nothing to say about Jesus going to Kashmir. Again the Ahmadiyya
      >>are in the world of phantasy and guesswork.
      >>
      >>P.S And I am not saying this as a Christian apologist. I am no Christian,
      just
      >>a historian of religions who try to go where the evidence leads me.
      >
      > Resurrections, real?

      Tom has this habit of becoming aphasic. Would you try, Tom, to read what
      you are commenting on before commenting?

      > You set out superstition and call it
      > history?

      I don't often agree with Antonio, but at least when I comment, I try to
      represent his views rather than imputing ideas that are not his.

      > Be sensible, for once.

      This is Tom's empty rhetoric. It's a shame that he bothers wasting his
      breath on such comments when someone challenges one of his sillier
      hobby-horses.

      Get real, Tom. Either respond to what the person actually says or shut up.
      You do this sort of thing a little too often.

      To say what a text's presuppositions are does not reflect what was history.

      To say that that text necessarily contains historical information is
      unjustified.

      To say that that text should be understood when filtered through later
      texts is misguided.

      And to say that, despite the fact that that text denies your
      interpretation, it can be read to support your position with a little
      tweaking clearly based on materials whose contexts are never shown to be
      relevant is disreputable.


      Ian

      > However, you're right, for once, you're no Christian...
      >
      >>
      >>Best wishes
      >>
      >>Antonio
      >>
      >
      >Tom Simms
      >
      >
    • joe baxter
      ... I have after all read some of your statements ... others ... I am not afraid to admit my ignorance about much of this world. So why not share with us the
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 2, 1999
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        At 09:41 PM 2/2/99 +0100, Antonio wrote:
        >Antonio Jerez wrote:
        >
        >>>Shahina,
        >>>I think you have a lot to learn, both about the origins of the Quran
        >>>and the New Testament. But for an excellent survey of what the
        >>>Quran has to say about Jesus I would advise you to start with
        >>>Jeffrey Parrinder's "Jesus in the Quran". Hopefully you will find
        >>>that those Quranic verses that talk about Jesus "survival" on the
        >>>cross are not as clearcut as you and some other muslims believe.


        I have after all read some of your statements
        >earlier on Crosstalk, and I must confess that so far you haven't shown much
        >knowledge about what kind of literatures the NT is and in what way the ancient
        >Jews went about doing Midrash, Pesher and Haggadah. You are definitely not
        >alone on the list in having this problem. Joe Baxter, Tom Simms and a few
        others
        >are also in dire need of taking a beginners course on this subject.

        I am not afraid to admit my ignorance about much of this world. So why not
        share with us the point or points you wish to make that relate to the
        subject. Conclusory swipes are not helpful to those of us, in dire need, as
        you say.


        There is no talk about Jesus surviving the ordeal on
        >the cross and thereafter walking along with his normal body all the way to
        >Kashmir. That is pure Ahmadiyya guesswork. You could just as well guess that
        >he flew to Mars.
        Again the Ahmadiyya
        >are in the world of phantasy and guesswork.

        Your ridicule is really not helpful. If you have a point, stick to the
        evidence. The Amadiya do not suggest that Yeshu got down from the cross and
        walked to Kashmir. Nor is their view guesswork. There is a very old Asian
        tradition, and many records concerning Yuzu Asaph. If your point is
        correct, dealing directly with the evidence should be helpful.

        In truth, it is the scholars, not the lay folk who are at fault here. Their
        arrogant confidence that Yeshu died and that the post-resurrection
        experiences were mass hallucinations has its own aura of ignorance. Only the
        overly educated could confidently believe such things and dismiss contrary
        points of view as trips to Mars.

        Keep in mind my friend, the church destroyed many of the texts. But for some
        incredible good fortune, we wouldn't know about GThomas. We lost 2000 lines
        of GHebrews. What else was destroyed? Do you think these manuscripts were
        destroyed because they agreed with the 4G? Simply stick to the evidence and
        be a little more humble to the possibility that the truth may be very
        different than what you have imagined. We have no reporting of what happened
        to most of the Apostles.

        With kind regards,

        Joe
      • Tom Simms
        ... .. ... .. Run out of people to flay, Igor? Tom
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 3, 1999
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          On Wed, 03 Feb 1999 04:23:26 +0100, mc2499@... writes:
          >At 20.32 02/02/99 AST, Tom Simms wrote:

          ..

          >Ian
          >

          ..

          Run out of people to flay, Igor?

          Tom
        • Antonio Jerez
          ... Amen to all of that, Ian. It does look increasingly certain that Tom has had his head pickled in the sands of the egyptian deserts for too long. At least
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 3, 1999
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            Ian Hutchesson commented on Tom Simms:

            >Get real, Tom. Either respond to what the person actually says or shut up.
            >You do this sort of thing a little too often.
            >
            >To say what a text's presuppositions are does not reflect what was history.
            >
            >To say that that text necessarily contains historical information is
            >unjustified.
            >
            >To say that that text should be understood when filtered through later
            >texts is misguided.
            >
            >And to say that, despite the fact that that text denies your
            >interpretation, it can be read to support your position with a little
            >tweaking clearly based on materials whose contexts are never shown to be
            >relevant is disreputable.


            Amen to all of that, Ian. It does look increasingly certain that Tom
            has had his head pickled in the sands of the egyptian deserts for
            too long. At least he hasn't become more clearheaded the years
            I've known him.
            Tom reminds me of a linguistics professor we have here in town
            by the name of Alvar Ellegard. This man has for the last ten years
            been propagating in books, articles and conferences that Jesus
            was never crucified by Pilate - instead he lived about 150 years
            earlier and was in reality the Teacher of Righteousness at Qumran.
            Increadibly enough a lot of people here in Sweden have been paying
            attention to this drivel. Now he threatens to publish another book in
            the Anglo-saxon countries. Since I am fed up with the man I decided
            to call the regional daily newspaper a few weeks ago and asked them
            to interview me about the historical Jesus and the professors nonsensical
            ideas. Surprisingly they immediately hooked up on my idea. Next Wednesday
            there is going to be a whole page in Goteborgs-Posten about me and my
            Jesus studies. One of my more controversial assertions will probably be
            that Sweden is an exegetical backwater - until now there hasn't been a
            historical Jesus research worth the name. Unfortunately the swedes have
            so far mostly had to be content with the mad ramblings of people like Ellegard
            or the theories of pseudohistorians at the theological institutions connected to
            the Universities. Among those pseudohistorians I count professors like Birger
            Gerhardsson and Harald Riesenfeldt.

            Best wishes

            Antonio
          • Antonio Jerez
            ... I ve been two years on this list and I have come to the point where I don t find it the least useful to get into prolonged discussions with beginners who
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 3, 1999
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              Joe Baxter responded to Antonio Jerez:

              >I am not afraid to admit my ignorance about much of this world. So why not
              >share with us the point or points you wish to make that relate to the
              >subject. Conclusory swipes are not helpful to those of us, in dire need, as
              >you say.

              I've been two years on this list and I have come to the point where
              I don't find it the least useful to get into prolonged discussions with
              beginners who start from ground zero on a new subject like Second
              Temple Judaism. The beginners are therefore welladvised to read at least
              a minimum of the relevant litterature before they get into discussions
              with the scholars on the list. There are many people on this list, myself
              included, who will certainly help with advise about what kind of litterature
              to start with.

              Best wishes

              Antonio
            • Ian Hutchesson
              ... I ll pour on some soothing oil, if you promise to stay away from the flames. -Igor
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 3, 1999
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                Tom Simms wrote:
                >..
                >
                >>Ian
                >>
                >
                >..
                >
                > Run out of people to flay, Igor?
                >
                >Tom

                I'll pour on some soothing oil, if you promise to stay away from the flames.


                -Igor
              • Tom Simms
                ... [... Snip ...] ... Apparently both of you believe in a personal god who takes part in your daily lives and in the actual resur- rection of Jesus by god. I
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 3, 1999
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                  On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:49:53 +0100, antonio.jerez@... writes:
                  >Ian Hutchesson commented on Tom Simms:
                  >>Get real, Tom. Either respond to what the person actually says or shut up.

                  [... Snip ...]

                  >Amen to all of that, Ian.

                  Apparently both of you believe in a personal god who
                  takes part in your daily lives and in the actual resur-
                  rection of Jesus by god.

                  I don't. That's MY presupposition dealing with the
                  Crucifixion.

                  It does look increasingly certain that Tom
                  >has had his head pickled in the sands of the egyptian deserts for
                  >too long.

                  In Egypt, I THINK people today don't have the Ancient
                  Beliefs, I see no evidence for them so doing, but I
                  DON'T KNOW for sure.

                  >At least he hasn't become more clearheaded the years
                  >I've known him.

                  Pure Bile. I must have struck a nerve.

                  >Tom reminds me of a linguistics professor we have here in town
                  >by the name of Alvar Ellegard. This man has for the last ten years
                  >been propagating in books, articles and conferences that Jesus
                  >was never crucified by Pilate - instead he lived about 150 years
                  >earlier and was in reality the Teacher of Righteousness at Qumran.

                  In the 1980's, and before the full publication of the
                  Dead Sea Scrolls, this was a popular and well supported
                  view. Right now, our sister List, Orion, is still
                  debating the issue and in particular the matter of the
                  Essenes.

                  >Increadibly enough a lot of people here in Sweden have been paying
                  >attention to this drivel. Now he threatens to publish another book in
                  >the Anglo-saxon countries. Since I am fed up with the man I decided
                  >to call the regional daily newspaper a few weeks ago and asked them
                  >to interview me about the historical Jesus and the professors nonsensical
                  >ideas. Surprisingly they immediately hooked up on my idea. Next Wednesday
                  >there is going to be a whole page in Goteborgs-Posten about me and my
                  >Jesus studies. One of my more controversial assertions will probably be
                  >that Sweden is an exegetical backwater - until now there hasn't been a
                  >historical Jesus research worth the name. Unfortunately the swedes have
                  >so far mostly had to be content with the mad ramblings of people like Ellegard
                  >or the theories of pseudohistorians at the theological institutions connected
                  >to the Universities. Among those pseudohistorians I count professors like
                  >Birger Gerhardsson and Harald Riesenfeldt.

                  Interesting that you would go public in such an academic
                  backwater. My text, _Behind The Bible_, has been in print
                  since 1990 and has sold to five continents. Just now I have
                  finished the last arrangements with Amazon.com and it will
                  be on their list before the end of this present month.

                  Now if you and Ian would please tell me 1. what is god; and
                  2. how he raised Jesus from the dead; and, 3. got him to
                  heaven, and do so in non-theological terms explicable in
                  today's physics and cosmology, then I'll shut up.

                  Now, if you offer that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul,
                  James or any others of that time believed that God raised
                  Jesus from the dead and then raised him to heaven is what
                  happened, I can't disagree they did so. I don't accept what
                  they believed happened is an historical reality. The his-
                  torical reality is that they believed so. Just what do you
                  believe happened that made the people named believe so?

                  I expect that because Seneca reports it was allegedly
                  witnessed, the Emperor's peculiar gait being the point of
                  certification, that you, Antonio, and you, Ian, believe took
                  place the ascension of Claudius to heaven on his deifictaion
                  in 54 CE. If you do, I have for your purchase some wonder-
                  ful shore lots here, available for showing only by appoint-
                  ment.

                  >B___ w_____ (being pure hypocrisy, sheilding his venom)
                  >
                  >Antonio
                  >

                  Otherwise, hogwash, Antonio and likewise, Ian,

                  Tom Simms
                • Ian Hutchesson
                  ... Dearest of Toms, I thought we were dealing with analyses of biblically related texts, not life the universe and everything. But if you insist on such off
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 3, 1999
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                    > Now if you and Ian would please tell me 1. what is god; and
                    > 2. how he raised Jesus from the dead; and, 3. got him to
                    > heaven, and do so in non-theological terms explicable in
                    > today's physics and cosmology, then I'll shut up.

                    Dearest of Toms,

                    I thought we were dealing with analyses of biblically related texts, not
                    life the universe and everything.

                    But if you insist on such off topic questions, let me join in:

                    What colour underpants are you wearing today? Are they too tight for you?
                    Did you change them this morning?

                    Perhaps if you get back on track, I will too! We are dealing with texts and
                    what those texts say, whether you or Bob or anyone else understands that or
                    not.


                    Ian

                    As to what you want to know, I can only pass on texts on this list, so read
                    Job chapter 38 following.
                  • joe baxter
                    ... I have after all read some of your statements ... others ... Joe s reply: I am not afraid to admit my ignorance about much of this world. So why not share
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 5, 1999
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                      >Antonio Jerez wrote:
                      >
                      >>>Shahina,
                      >>>I think you have a lot to learn, both about the origins of the Quran
                      >>>and the New Testament.

                      I have after all read some of your statements
                      >earlier on Crosstalk, and I must confess that so far you haven't shown much
                      >knowledge about what kind of literatures the NT is and in what way the ancient
                      >Jews went about doing Midrash, Pesher and Haggadah. You are definitely not
                      >alone on the list in having this problem. Joe Baxter, Tom Simms and a few
                      others
                      >are also in dire need of taking a beginners course on this subject.

                      Joe's reply:

                      I am not afraid to admit my ignorance about much of this world. So why not
                      share with us the point or points you wish to make that relate to the
                      subject. Conclusory swipes are not helpful to those of us, in dire need, as
                      you say.

                      More Antonio:

                      There is no talk about Jesus surviving the ordeal on
                      >the cross and thereafter walking along with his normal body all the way to
                      >Kashmir. That is pure Ahmadiyya guesswork. You could just as well guess that
                      >he flew to Mars.
                      Again the Ahmadiyya
                      >are in the world of phantasy and guesswork.

                      Joe's reply:

                      Your ridicule is really not helpful. If you have a point, stick to the
                      evidence. The Amadiya do not suggest that Yeshu got down from the cross and
                      walked to Kashmir. Nor is their view guesswork. There is a very old Asian
                      tradition, and many records concerning Yuzu Asaph. If your point is
                      correct, dealing directly with the evidence should be helpful.

                      In truth, it is the scholars, not the lay folk who are at fault here. Their
                      arrogant confidence that Yeshu died and that the post-resurrection
                      experiences were mass hallucinations has its own aura of ignorance. Only the
                      overly educated could confidently believe such things and dismiss contrary
                      points of view as trips to Mars.

                      Keep in mind my friend, the church destroyed many of the texts. But for some
                      incredible good fortune, we wouldn't know about GThomas. We lost 2000 lines
                      of GHebrews. What else was destroyed? Do you think these manuscripts were
                      destroyed because they agreed with the 4G? Simply stick to the evidence and
                      be a little more humble to the possibility that the truth may be very
                      different than what you have imagined. We have no reporting of what happened
                      to most of the Apostles.

                      Antonio's reply:

                      >I've been two years on this list and I have come to the point where
                      >I don't find it the least useful to get into prolonged discussions with
                      >beginners who start from ground zero on a new subject like Second
                      >Temple Judaism. The beginners are therefore welladvised to read at least
                      >a minimum of the relevant litterature before they get into discussions
                      >with the scholars on the list.


                      "Jesus said, 'Those who know all, but are lacking in themseves, are utterly
                      lacking.' "

                      Gospel of Thomas 67
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