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Re: Flavius and Luke

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  • Jim West
    ... I think the similarities are merely coincidental. Both wrote at around the same time and so it is no surprise that their styles are similar. Like modern
    Message 1 of 4 , Dec 30, 1998
      At 06:39 PM 12/30/98 +0100, you wrote:
      >Dear all,

      >
      >any DIRECT conections between this two writers?


      I think the similarities are merely coincidental. Both wrote at around the
      same time and so it is no surprise that their styles are similar. Like
      modern romance novels, or westerns, or sit coms on tv sound vaguely similar
      because they are composed at the same relative time.

      Best,

      Jim

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++

      Jim West, ThD
      Quartz Hill School of Theology

      jwest@...
    • Aleksandar Milanovic
      Dear all, ...when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 30, 1998
        Dear all,

        "...when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended
        by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests
        and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in
        order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of
        the law." (Josephus Flavius, Autobiography 2)

        "...when he was twelfe years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the
        custom of feast. And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned,
        the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Jeseph and his mother
        knew not of it... they turned back again to Jerusalim to seeking him.
        And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple,
        sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them
        questions. And all that heard him were astonisched at his understanding
        and answers."
        (Luke 2:42-47)

        any DIRECT conections between this two writers?

        thank you,
        Alexander
        --
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        * ~ Aleksandar Milanovic ~ FOR after that in the wisdom of *
        * ~ student of History ~ God the world by wisdom knew not God, *
        * ~ Faculty of Philosophy ~ it pleased God by foolishness of *
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      • Tom Simms
        ... Once I got it in my head that Acts was mostly composed before 62 CE it made it much easier to consider that J borrowed from Luke rather than v.v. Just
        Message 3 of 4 , Dec 30, 1998
          On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:47:59 +0000, jwest@... writes:
          >
          >At 06:39 PM 12/30/98 +0100, you wrote:
          >>Dear all,
          >
          >>
          >>any DIRECT conections between this two writers?
          >
          >
          >I think the similarities are merely coincidental. Both wrote at around the
          >same time and so it is no surprise that their styles are similar. Like
          >modern romance novels, or westerns, or sit coms on tv sound vaguely similar
          >because they are composed at the same relative time.

          Once I got it in my head that Acts was mostly composed before 62 CE
          it made it much easier to consider that J borrowed from Luke rather than
          v.v. Just like I've swung from Exile anmd post exile comp of the
          MT to post 132 CE for a final editing...

          Yestrday I got a read on the WAC text (once more tnx +++) via the net
          that calls its contents the total of the parts that translate into
          "understandable English" which backs me off my suspicions once more...
          and THIS makes me realize theat Jesus was mucvh more mainline
          during his career than I've even remotely suspected.

          Sometimes on little things...

          Tom S
          >
          >Best,
          >
          >Jim
          >
          >+++++++++++++++++++++++++
          >
          >Jim West, ThD
          >Quartz Hill School of Theology
          >
          >jwest@...
          >
          >
        • Bob Schacht
          ... I ve just read J.P. Meier s chapter on Josephus in A Marginal Jew: Vol. one, and he very well disposes of this idea. Josephus was very likely in
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 1, 1999
            At 05:26 PM 12/30/98 -0400, Tom Simms wrote:
            >On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:47:59 +0000, jwest@... writes:
            >>
            >>At 06:39 PM 12/30/98 +0100, you wrote:
            >>>Dear all,
            >>
            >>>
            >>>any DIRECT conections between this two writers?
            >>
            >>
            >>I think the similarities are merely coincidental. Both wrote at around the
            >>same time and so it is no surprise that their styles are similar. Like
            >>modern romance novels, or westerns, or sit coms on tv sound vaguely similar
            >>because they are composed at the same relative time.
            >
            > Once I got it in my head that Acts was mostly composed before 62 CE
            > it made it much easier to consider that J borrowed from Luke rather than
            > v.v. Just like I've swung from Exile anmd post exile comp of the
            > MT to post 132 CE for a final editing...

            I've just read J.P. Meier's chapter on Josephus in A Marginal Jew: Vol.
            one, and he very well disposes of this idea. Josephus was "very likely" in
            Jerusalem when James the Just was deposed (p.87), and would have had no
            need to rely on Luke as a source for Ant. 20.9.1 #200. As for Ant. 18.3.3.
            #63-64, the famous Testimonium Flavianum, about which every conceivable
            opinion has been expressed, Meier makes a good case that except for three
            interpolated phrases, the bulk of the passages comes straight from
            Josephus. The interpolated phrases are
            1. "if indeed one should call him a man"
            2. "He was the Messiah"
            3. "For he appeared to them on the third day, living again, just as the
            divine prophets had spoken of these and countless other wondrous things
            about him."

            These interpolations differ in style and language from Josephus' usual,
            whereas the remaining text is quite typically Josephan, according to Meier.
            So your Luke hypothesis would have two parts: was the Josephan material
            based on Luke, or, was the non-Josephan material based on Luke? Neither
            appears likely (See Meier, pp.67f.) The Josephan part of the Testimonium
            uses distinctively non-Christian language. If Josephus had access to Luke,
            he deliberately chose to ignore its most significant passages, and also
            chose to significantly change the language of the significant passages so
            as to render them unrecognizable as Lukan.

            In brief, Meier considers Josephus an independent witness.

            Bob
            Robert Schacht
            Northern Arizona University
            Robert.Schacht@...

            "This success of my endeavors was due, I believe, to a rule of 'method':
            that we should always try to clarify and to strengthen our opponent's
            position as much as possible before criticizing him, if we wish our
            criticism to be worth while." [Sir Karl Popper, The Logic of Scientific
            Discovery (1968), p. 260 n.*5]
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