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Re: Synagogues and Observance

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  • Tom Simms
    ... Bob has paraded that he is totally ubnaware of the sea change that has taken place in biblical Studies, courtesy of the full ecposure of the Dead Sea
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 30, 1998
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      On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:13:26 -0700, Robert.Schacht@... writes:
      >
      >This list used to have a quasi-inerrantist member, name of Stevan Davies,
      >who used to say that he was a simple man, and that if the texts said
      >something over and over, then it could be true. Now this person has become
      >possessed by a minimalist (nothing accepted until proved) demon, who makes
      >him say things like:

      Bob has paraded that he is totally ubnaware of the sea change
      that has taken place in biblical Studies, courtesy of the full
      ecposure of the Dead Sea Scrolls, especially when he writes the
      following apragraph which is simply "hot air". Don't you know,
      Bob, that the Massora, aka Luther's Bible OT, KJV, only began its
      final collection after 70 CE and the final editing perhaps began
      in 132 CE. IOW, Jesus did not know the Massora!

      >Isn't that a bit like saying no one venerated the NT before the NT came
      >into being? True, the Torah went through at least 4 editions before it
      >stabilized, perhaps in the time of Ezra. But by the first century,
      >everyone-- in Alexandria, Judea, Galilee, the DSS, the Septuagint-- were
      >using the same Torah with only minor variations (comparable, perhaps, to
      >the differences between the NRSV and the REB).

      Now, see what the _Britannica_ was saying about Ezra SIXTY YEARS
      AGO:

      " History tells nothing about making the Old Testament Canon.
      _2 Esdras_ tells us that the Babylonians burnt The Law. But _2
      Esdras_ came into being near the end of the First Century A.D.
      It's not a current account. _2 Esdras_ then tells us that Ezra,
      at his own request, wanted to rewrite The Law. In forty days he
      dictated 94 books to five scribes. He set forth the 24 books of
      the Old Testament and 70 apocryphal books. _2 Esdras_ tells us
      Ezra's versions were superior to the previous versions.
      This legend tells nothing about a completion of the Canon or
      collection or dedication of sacred books. Writers among the
      Church Fathers infer from _2 Esdras_ that Ezra restored the lost
      Old Testament books. Yet _2 Macc.ii, 13_ refers to the library
      of Nehemiah. It might be another source. But the reference
      occurs in a late and untrustworthy section of the book.
      The modern idea that Ezra closed the Old Testament Canon
      appears shortly before the Thirteenth Century A.D. From this
      time the legend grew. Elias Levita (1538), and especially
      Johannes Buxtorf (1665) retailed the story. The "men of the
      Great Synagogue", named in the legend, were a doubtful body.
      With Ezra as president, so the story goes, they collected the
      books. Then they restored the text. Finally, they divided the
      material into The Law, the Prophets and the Writings. Through
      the reputation of Levita and Buxtorf, this view gained general
      currency. However, it rests on no authority in antiquity what-
      ever."

      >Sweet dreams,
      >Bob
      >

      Isn't Bob nice when he thinks he's got Steve in a corner? Pity.

      Yr Resident Curmudgeon,

      Tom Simms
    • Stevan Davies
      ... Ahh yes. 1. The Evangelists thought that there surely were synagogues in Galilee as in the myriad regions inhabited in part by Ioudaioi. They were mistaken
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 31, 1998
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        In a letter remarkably rude, for him, Bob Schact wrote:

        > And then of course there is the matter of all the mentions of
        > synagogues in Galilee, in all four gospels, such as....

        Ahh yes.

        1. The Evangelists thought that there surely were synagogues
        in Galilee as in the myriad regions inhabited in part by Ioudaioi.
        They were mistaken except insofar as places with large populations
        probably held synagogues for Ioudaioi as was the case in most
        places outside Judea. One does not assume, I think, that the
        Evangelists were familiar with Galilee and its customs and
        the architectural features of its villages.

        2. There were places of assembly in Galilee called "places of
        assembly" by Greek speaking people. Jesus spoke at such
        places. Not unreasonble to think.

        Yet the presumption that if there was a 'synagogue' we know
        from that fact that 'in that synagogue they studied the Law
        of the Judeans with reverence' does not follow.

        Steve
      • Bob Schacht
        ... Steve, Several others wrote to me off-list who seem to have understood my remarks the way I intended them to be understood, but I am sorry that my attempt
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 31, 1998
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          At 08:20 PM 10/31/98 -0400, Stevan Davies wrote:
          >In a letter remarkably rude, for him, Bob Schact wrote:
          >
          >> And then of course there is the matter of all the mentions of
          >> synagogues in Galilee, in all four gospels, such as....
          >

          Steve,
          Several others wrote to me off-list who seem to have understood my remarks
          the way I intended them to be understood, but I am sorry that my attempt at
          banter was misperceived, and apologize to you for any maladroit rudeness on
          my part.

          >Ahh yes.
          >
          >1. The Evangelists thought that there surely were synagogues
          >in Galilee as in the myriad regions inhabited in part by Ioudaioi.
          >They were mistaken except insofar as places with large populations
          >probably held synagogues for Ioudaioi as was the case in most
          >places outside Judea. One does not assume, I think, that the
          >Evangelists were familiar with Galilee and its customs and
          >the architectural features of its villages.
          >
          >2. There were places of assembly in Galilee called "places of
          >assembly" by Greek speaking people. Jesus spoke at such
          >places. Not unreasonble to think.
          >
          >Yet the presumption that if there was a 'synagogue' we know
          >from that fact that 'in that synagogue they studied the Law
          >of the Judeans with reverence' does not follow.
          >
          >Steve
          >


          My post on this issue, which crossed yours in cyberspace, deals with these
          matters somewhat. Thanks for your response.

          Cheers,
          Bob


          Bob Schacht
          Flagstaff, AZ
          "Grace danceth. I would pipe; dance ye all. Amen. To the Universe belongs
          the Dancer -- Amen. He who does not dance does not know what happens -- Amen.
          Now if you follow my dance, see yourself in Me who am speaking. . . .
          You who dance, consider what I do, for yours is this passion of Man which I
          am to suffer. For you could by no means have understood what you suffer if
          I had not been sent to you, as Logos of the Father."
          --The Acts of John, Chapters 94-96
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