Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Satyricon

Expand Messages
  • Paul Miller
    Tom Simms posted: When the soldier finds that the body is missing he is about to commit suicide for fear of punishment--but the widow comes up with a plan: put
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 30, 1998
    • 0 Attachment
      Tom Simms posted:
      When the soldier finds that the body is missing he is about to commit
      suicide for fear of punishment--but the widow comes up with a plan: put the
      body of her dead husband on the empty cross. There are elements--such as the
      three days spent in a closed tomb, the light shining from the tomb, the
      disappearance of the body from it, the soldier guarding nearby--that suggest
      the Petronius knew the story of the guard at the tomb, whether from
      Matthew's gospel or from some other source. It also suggests that Petronius'
      readership in the early sixties A.D. would be aware of this Christian story
      and would be amused by his parody of it. -------

      Also the innocent body took the place on the cross of the guilty body, a
      little early christian theology sneaking into this satire.
      There were also two women in the satire, same as Matthew. This satire is
      very compelling to me for an early Matthew, unless you think Petronius
      influenced the gospel writers.

      Paul Miller
    • E. Bruce Brooks
      Topic: Satyricon From: Bruce In Response To: Paul Miller PAUL: . . . Also the innocent body took the place on the cross of the guilty body, a little early
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 30, 1998
      • 0 Attachment
        Topic: Satyricon
        From: Bruce
        In Response To: Paul Miller

        PAUL: . . . Also the innocent body took the place on the cross of the
        guilty body, a little early christian theology sneaking into this satire.
        There were also two women in the satire, same as Matthew. This satire is
        very compelling to me for an early Matthew, unless you think Petronius
        influenced the gospel writers.

        BRUCE: Not *remotely* possible. Satire does not work in reverse. Either it
        is a coincidence or it is a clear directional pointer, and with a date at
        that. Again, the detail of the guard can only come from GMt, or from a
        tradition which it alone reflects. Anyone have a good argument for
        coincidence? Is the literary context of this passage in Petronius of any
        help in deciding? And if GMt or at least its Crucifixion narrative is
        pre-62, what becomes of its supposed pointer to the Destruction of the
        Temple in 70, which is part of that narrative?

        Bruce

        E Bruce Brooks / University of Massachusetts
      • E. Bruce Brooks
        Topic: Satyricon From: Bruce In Response To: Tom Simms On the effect of the Satyricon echo on Synoptic dating: TOM: However, rejoice that you have some firm
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 31, 1998
        • 0 Attachment
          Topic: Satyricon
          From: Bruce
          In Response To: Tom Simms

          On the effect of the Satyricon echo on Synoptic dating:

          TOM: However, rejoice that you have some firm ground now for these literary
          artifacts. I'd hate to tell you what this approach does to the Tanakh.

          BRUCE: Doing something you hate is good for the soul. What does this
          approach do to the Tanakh?

          E Bruce Brooks / University of Massachusetts
        • Neil Godfrey
          ... I m not sure why this Petronius passage should be singled out in this way above other literature that even more strongly looks like sources for Matthew.
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 31, 1998
          • 0 Attachment
            Paul Miller wrote:

            > Tom Simms posted:
            > When the soldier finds that the body is missing he is about to commit
            > suicide for fear of punishment--but the widow comes up with a plan: put the
            > body of her dead husband on the empty cross. There are elements--such as the
            > three days spent in a closed tomb, the light shining from the tomb, the
            > disappearance of the body from it, the soldier guarding nearby--that suggest
            > the Petronius knew the story of the guard at the tomb, whether from
            > Matthew's gospel or from some other source. It also suggests that Petronius'
            > readership in the early sixties A.D. would be aware of this Christian story
            > and would be amused by his parody of it. -------
            >
            > Also the innocent body took the place on the cross of the guilty body, a
            > little early christian theology sneaking into this satire.
            > There were also two women in the satire, same as Matthew. This satire is
            > very compelling to me for an early Matthew, unless you think Petronius
            > influenced the gospel writers

            I'm not sure why this Petronius passage should be singled out in this way above
            other literature that even more strongly looks like sources for Matthew. Should
            it necesssarily be given a different status from, say, Ovid's description of
            Julius Caesar's death -- with earthquake and bodies emerging from graves etc.?
            Or Philo's account of the mockery of Carabas -- with mock royal accoutrements?
            (And then there is that spring ritual going back to Assyrian times with the king
            being slapped by the priest and ritually condemned to die.....) If it can be
            accepted that a gospel writer drew on such sources as these, then is there
            anything about the Petronius passage that gives reason to see it so differently?

            Neil

            Toowoomba
            Australia
            mercury1@...
          • Tom Simms
            ... As you do in normal antiquarian studies, accept only those things that have support from sources earlier than the date of your copy. IOW, excise the temple
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 31, 1998
            • 0 Attachment
              On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 02:33:00 -0400, brooks@... writes:
              >
              >Topic: Satyricon
              >From: Bruce
              >In Response To: Paul Miller
              >
              >PAUL: . . . Also the innocent body took the place on the cross of the
              >guilty body, a little early christian theology sneaking into this satire.
              >There were also two women in the satire, same as Matthew. This satire is
              >very compelling to me for an early Matthew, unless you think Petronius
              >influenced the gospel writers.
              >
              >BRUCE: Not *remotely* possible. Satire does not work in reverse. Either it
              >is a coincidence or it is a clear directional pointer, and with a date at
              >that. Again, the detail of the guard can only come from GMt, or from a
              >tradition which it alone reflects. Anyone have a good argument for
              >coincidence? Is the literary context of this passage in Petronius of any
              >help in deciding? And if GMt or at least its Crucifixion narrative is
              >pre-62, what becomes of its supposed pointer to the Destruction of the
              >Temple in 70, which is part of that narrative?
              >
              >Bruce
              >
              >E Bruce Brooks / University of Massachusetts
              >

              As you do in normal antiquarian studies, accept only those things
              that have support from sources earlier than the date of your copy.
              IOW, excise the temple notices unless they have support in other
              yet later ms.

              However, rejoice thast you have some firm ground now for these
              literary artifacts.

              I'd hate to tell you what this approach does to the Tanakh.

              Tom Simms
            • Paul Miller
              Should it necesssarily be given a different status from, say, Ovid s description of Julius Caesar s death -- with earthquake and bodies emerging from graves
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 31, 1998
              • 0 Attachment
                Should
                it necesssarily be given a different status from, say, Ovid's description of
                Julius Caesar's death -- with earthquake and bodies emerging from graves
                etc.?
                Or Philo's account of the mockery of Carabas -- with mock royal
                accoutrements?
                (And then there is that spring ritual going back to Assyrian times with the
                king
                being slapped by the priest and ritually condemned to die.....) If it can be
                accepted that a gospel writer drew on such sources as these, then is there
                anything about the Petronius passage that gives reason to see it so
                differently?

                Neil-----------

                These are single similarities and may or not have been worked into the
                gospel accounts. The story in the Satyricon has multiple similarities. The
                more of which there are increases the chances for dependence one way or
                another. If Petronius didn't make this story a satire of christian stories
                then what is it a satire of?

                Paul Miller
              • Jack Kilmon
                ... If Petronius used material from Christian tradition in a satire of Nero..which is understandable...it does not necessarily mean that it was dependent on
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 31, 1998
                • 0 Attachment
                  Paul Miller wrote:

                  > These are single similarities and may or not have been worked into the
                  > gospel accounts. The story in the Satyricon has multiple similarities. The
                  > more of which there are increases the chances for dependence one way or
                  > another. If Petronius didn't make this story a satire of christian stories
                  > then what is it a satire of?

                  If Petronius used material from Christian tradition in a satire of
                  Nero..which is understandable...it does not necessarily mean that
                  it was dependent on any of the synoptics but on the tradition upon
                  which the synoptics drew. It is very possible that the Nazareth
                  Inscription dates to the time of Claudius suggesting that this
                  "story" had been circulating in Rome like gangbusters.

                  Jack
                  jkilmon@...
                • Tom Simms
                  ... The Tanakh of today is NOT the Tanakh of the First Century Before the Current Era nor the Tanakh of the First Century OF the Current Era. The difference
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 31, 1998
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:24:02 -0400, brooks@... writes:
                    >
                    >Topic: Satyricon
                    >From: Bruce
                    >In Response To: Tom Simms
                    >
                    >On the effect of the Satyricon echo on Synoptic dating:
                    >
                    >TOM: However, rejoice that you have some firm ground now for these literary
                    >artifacts. I'd hate to tell you what this approach does to the Tanakh.
                    >
                    >BRUCE: Doing something you hate is good for the soul. What does this
                    >approach do to the Tanakh?
                    >
                    >E Bruce Brooks / University of Massachusetts


                    The Tanakh of today is NOT the Tanakh of the First Century Before the
                    Current Era nor the Tanakh of the First Century OF the Current Era.
                    The difference has substantial consequences both for Christianity and
                    Judaism.

                    Tom Simms
                  • Tom Simms
                    ... [... snip ... noted ...] ... Ovid, Philo, the Assyrian or Osirian sources are all previous to the gospellers accounts. Philo is oftne suspected as a
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 31, 1998
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 23:48:07 +1000, mercury1@... writes:
                      >Paul Miller wrote:
                      >> Tom Simms posted:
                      >> When the soldier finds that the body is missing he is about to commit

                      [... snip ... noted ...]

                      >I'm not sure why this Petronius passage should be singled out in this way above
                      >other literature that even more strongly looks like sources for Matthew. Should
                      >it necesssarily be given a different status from, say, Ovid's description of
                      >Julius Caesar's death -- with earthquake and bodies emerging from graves etc.?
                      >Or Philo's account of the mockery of Carabas -- with mock royal accoutrements?
                      >(And then there is that spring ritual going back to Assyrian times with the
                      >king being slapped by the priest and ritually condemned to die.....)

                      Ovid, Philo, the Assyrian or Osirian sources are all previous to
                      the gospellers' accounts. Philo is oftne suspected as a cource for
                      John's philosophical views, especially on the Logos.

                      However, the Petronius accounts have too many details that are
                      peculiarir to the Passion acounts to be any but a borrow. Parady
                      ojnly works one way, another poster noted. I agree.


                      >If it can be
                      >accepted that a gospel writer drew on such sources as these, then is there
                      >anything about the Petronius passage that gives reason to see it so
                      >differently?

                      Just noted.

                      >Neil
                      >
                      >Toowoomba
                      >Australia
                      >mercury1@...
                      >

                      L8R

                      Tom Simms
                    • Sam Gibson
                      Tom, ... strikes me as being the same type of statement as the I know what test would prove that the shroud is genuine but I am not telling YOU. If you ve
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 31, 1998
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Tom,

                        This:
                        > The Tanakh of today is NOT the Tanakh of the First Century Before the
                        > Current Era nor the Tanakh of the First Century OF the Current Era.
                        > The difference has substantial consequences both for Christianity and
                        > Judaism.
                        >
                        >Tom Simm


                        strikes me as being the same type of statement as the "I know what test
                        would prove that the shroud is genuine but I am not telling YOU."

                        If you've got something to say, publish it! Or you could just outline the
                        gist of it for us here. What do you say, Tom? Please, let's cut through the
                        hints and have you TELL us something, ay? I promise to read the whole thing.
                        --
                        Sincerely,
                        Sam Gibson
                        {---Please note the new addresses---}
                        e-mail cygnus6@...
                        web site http://www.cygnus6.com
                        {---Please note the new addresses---}
                        -------------------------------------------------------
                        "You might have lived a good life as an exemplary Christian,
                        only to be met at the gates of Heaven by Mohammed.
                        That's called fate."
                        -Neil Peart, drummer and lyricist from Rush
                      • Sam Gibson
                        Tom, ... If there is a profit to be made? You betcha they would! In scholarship, I think that profit is knowledge and information, no? ... I commiserate with
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 31, 1998
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Tom,


                          > Does macy's tell gimbels?


                          If there is a profit to be made? You betcha they would! In scholarship, I
                          think that profit is knowledge and information, no?

                          > I spent two houras this afternoon putting rogether a piece on
                          > the issue, felt it was pretty good and got out of my word processor
                          > to send and forgot to save it. (I usually save every paragraph but when
                          > the writing mood hist me I forget about cpu routines...)

                          I commiserate with you on this. While computers give us so many good things,
                          they can also be the bearer of much misery and frustration. I have gone
                          through the exact same thing that happened to you this afternoon. Hop back
                          on that horse.

                          > A short version tells you I was startled to discover almost
                          > NO verses from Judges Joshua Kings Chronicles Samuel in the DSS!
                          >
                          > IOW there were no history books in the Hebrew Bible! pre 70 BCE, ie...
                          > I UNDERSTAND - ie, I'm not sure - but the LXX translations are also
                          > shy of those texts too - the 1st C BCE pieces that have survived.

                          OK, this is more like it! Is it possible that the writers and compilers of
                          the DSS were simply not concerned with the history portions of the OT? Or
                          are you suggesting that these texts were not written until later? If neither
                          of these, what are the "experts" using to explain these absences of some of
                          the most gruesome of biblical texts?

                          > Go through Wise, Abegg & Cook and see where Leviticus draws the line
                          > with forbidden behavior. Halakha was much much simpler!

                          No 613 (or is it 614? I always forget) laws of the Holiness Code? I am very
                          interested to see where these lines are drawn and will definitely look into
                          your sources. Maybe there is more basis for Reform Judaism than the Chasidim
                          would have us all believe?

                          > Suddenly I realize that Jesus was preaching "Go back to basics."
                          > He was going contrary to another trend in Judaism that wanted to go
                          > so far right they'd be spending their lives splitting hairs.
                          >
                          > After the destruction of the Temple that group became normative Judaism.

                          Well... I'm currently studying the Sermon on the Mount/Plain and while much
                          of it is gray/black in T5G, there is A LOT of, "You were taught this, but
                          you should do this." I am not really sure how this affects your theory but
                          it would seem to go against it. I can't help but wonder if this "back to
                          basics" Jesus is a way to tie the man to the Essene community that many want
                          to tie him to. But... you guys are the scholars... I'm the five and dime.

                          > Sorry this isn't coherent... and more balanced, but you asked.

                          Not at all. You have provided me with something to look into and more
                          knowledge than I had when I asked. For that I am grateful.
                          --
                          Sincerely,
                          Sam Gibson
                          {---Please note the new addresses---}
                          e-mail cygnus6@...
                          web site http://www.cygnus6.com
                          {---Please note the new addresses---}
                          -------------------------------------------------------
                          "You might have lived a good life as an exemplary Christian,
                          only to be met at the gates of Heaven by Mohammed.
                          That's called fate."
                          -Neil Peart, drummer and lyricist from Rush
                        • Tom Simms
                          ... In the short run, no - which is why others only let patents run short time - in yhe long run, sadly - as Lord Keynes said - we are all dead. ... No, I used
                          Message 12 of 12 , Sep 1, 1998
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:07:10 -0400, cygnus6@... writes:
                            >
                            >Tom,
                            >
                            >
                            >> Does macy's tell gimbels?
                            >
                            >
                            >If there is a profit to be made? You betcha they would! In scholarship, I
                            >think that profit is knowledge and information, no?

                            In the short run, no - which is why others only let patents run
                            short time - in yhe long run, sadly - as Lord Keynes said - we are
                            all dead.

                            >> I spent two houras this afternoon putting rogether a piece on
                            >> the issue, felt it was pretty good and got out of my word processor
                            >> to send and forgot to save it. (I usually save every paragraph but when
                            >> the writing mood hits me I forget about cpu routines...)
                            >
                            >I commiserate with you on this. While computers give us so many good things,
                            >they can also be the bearer of much misery and frustration. I have gone
                            >through the exact same thing that happened to you this afternoon. Hop back
                            >on that horse.
                            >
                            >> A short version tells you I was startled to discover almost
                            >> NO verses from Judges Joshua Kings Chronicles Samuel in the DSS!
                            >>
                            >> IOW there were no history books in the Hebrew Bible! pre 70 BCE, ie...
                            >> I UNDERSTAND - ie, I'm not sure - but the LXX translations are also
                            >> shy of those texts too - the 1st C BCE pieces that have survived.
                            >
                            >OK, this is more like it! Is it possible that the writers and compilers of
                            >the DSS were simply not concerned with the history portions of the OT? Or
                            >are you suggesting that these texts were not written until later? If neither
                            >of these, what are the "experts" using to explain these absences of some of
                            >the most gruesome of biblical texts?
                            >
                            >> Go through Wise, Abegg & Cook and see where Leviticus draws the line
                            >> with forbidden behavior. Halakha was much much simpler!
                            >
                            >No 613 (or is it 614? I always forget) laws of the Holiness Code? I am very
                            >interested to see where these lines are drawn and will definitely look into
                            >your sources. Maybe there is more basis for Reform Judaism than the Chasidim
                            >would have us all believe?
                            >
                            >> Suddenly I realize that Jesus was preaching "Go back to basics."
                            >> He was going contrary to another trend in Judaism that wanted to go
                            >> so far right they'd be spending their lives splitting hairs.
                            >>
                            >> After the destruction of the Temple that group became normative Judaism.
                            >
                            >Well... I'm currently studying the Sermon on the Mount/Plain and while much
                            >of it is gray/black in T5G, there is A LOT of, "You were taught this, but
                            >you should do this." I am not really sure how this affects your theory but
                            >it would seem to go against it. I can't help but wonder if this "back to
                            >basics" Jesus is a way to tie the man to the Essene community that many want
                            >to tie him to. But... you guys are the scholars... I'm the five and dime.

                            No, I used to think Jesus was strongly influenced by Essenes but their
                            strict halakha was no His number. And, BTW, I have one History course on
                            my CV - Freshman World...Egyptology is my bag.

                            >> Sorry this isn't coherent... and more balanced, but you asked.
                            >
                            >Not at all. You have provided me with something to look into and more
                            >knowledge than I had when I asked. For that I am grateful.

                            Two little snippets of ommissions from the Dead Sea Scrolls that
                            came from non-list people asking questions:
                            1. The Jehovah's Witnesses' verse about "eating no blood"
                            (Lev 3:17; Lev 7:25,27; Lev 10:18; Lev 17:10,12,14; Lev 19:26.
                            2. Gay bashers on "lie with mankind" (Lev 20:13)

                            Oh yes, one of my favorite arguments used to that Bithiah, the
                            Egyptian Princess wife of Solomon, brought all sorts of Wisdom
                            Literature in her library. Not so, as a private post to someone on
                            another List shows:

                            * None of the following texts I used to support my Bithiah arguement are
                            in the Dead Sea Scrolls:


                            1 Kings 3:1 And Solomon made affinity with Pharaoh king of Egypt, and
                            took Pharaoh's daughter, and brought her into the city of David, until
                            he had made an end of building his own house, and the house of the LORD,
                            and the wall of Jerusalem round about.

                            1 Kings 7:8 And his house where he dwelt had another court within the
                            porch, which was of the like work. Solomon made also an house for
                            Pharaoh's daughter, whom he had taken to wife, like unto this porch.

                            1 Kings 9:16 For Pharaoh king of Egypt had gone up, and taken Gezer,
                            and burnt it with fire, and slain the Canaanites that dwelt in the city,
                            and given it for a present unto his daughter, Solomon's wife.

                            1 Kings 9:24 But Pharaoh's daughter came up out of the city of David
                            unto her house which Solomon had built for her: then did he build Millo.

                            1 Chronicles 4:18 And his wife Jehudijah bare Jered the father of
                            Gedor, and Heber the father of Socho, and Jekuthiel the father of
                            Zanoah. And these are the sons of Bithiah the daughter of Pharaoh,
                            which Mered took.

                            2 Chronicles 8:11 And Solomon brought up the daughter of Pharaoh out
                            of the city of David unto the house that he had built for her: for he
                            said, My wife shall not dwell in the house of David king of Israel,
                            because the places are holy, whereunto the ark of the LORD hath come.

                            *In fact, there are only

                            Book Fragments Verses

                            Joshua 15 23
                            Judges 2 2
                            1 Sam 4 19
                            2 Sam 3 6
                            1 Kings 2 25
                            2 Kings 3 19
                            1 Chron 2 13
                            2 Chron 2 5

                            .. telling me the Historical books were not either well known nor by
                            any evidence I know were they "finished" even in the time of Jesus
                            except in Greekand maybe not there also...

                            >Sincerely,
                            >Sam Gibson
                            >{---Please note the new addresses---}
                            >e-mail cygnus6@...
                            >web site http://www.cygnus6.com
                            >{---Please note the new addresses---}
                            >-------------------------------------------------------
                            >"You might have lived a good life as an exemplary Christian,
                            >only to be met at the gates of Heaven by Mohammed.
                            >That's called fate."
                            >-Neil Peart, drummer and lyricist from Rush

                            More L8R?

                            Tom Simms
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.