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Re: Cult vs Sect

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  • James R. Covey
    ... My thoughts exactly. ... Me too. So if people don t mind a little bit of a departure from usual list discussion, I d be interested to hear why Steve
    Message 1 of 36 , Jul 22, 1998
      re missive of 22/07/98 05:58 PM signed -Lewis Reich- :

      >> Anyhow, Martin Luther and his sort are "sectarian" to the degree
      >> that one suspects they are the model of the type.

      My thoughts exactly.

      >> I was wondering
      >> about Mohammed. Seems to me that he too is "sectarian."
      >
      >Since my impression was that Muhammad introduced new material from a
      >fairly early stage, I would have thought that under this scheme he would
      >have been founding a cult.

      Me too. So if people don't mind a little bit of a departure from usual
      list discussion, I'd be interested to hear why Steve thinks that!

      James


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    • Bob Schacht
      ... stricter ... Lewis, What is the basis for this model? It is not the impression I get from reading Josephus. ... Josephus description of the partisan
      Message 36 of 36 , Aug 1, 1998
        At 06:46 PM 8/1/98 -0400, Lewis Reich wrote:
        >...The model of the Pharisees as a pietist table fellowship who adopted
        stricter
        >rules modeled on the Temple rules for priests for themselves provides no
        >sense of why Pharisees would feel impelled to "convert" other Jews to their
        >ways.

        Lewis,
        What is the basis for this model? It is not the impression I get from
        reading Josephus.

        > In addition, since the Pharisees do not seem to have had a program that
        >they wished other Jews to adopt, why would they seek "converts"?

        Josephus' description of the partisan strife between pharisees and
        sadducees allows one to suspect that they sought strength in numbers.

        >My impression of the Pharisees' is that they were interested in
        regularizing and
        >systematizing traditional ways of doing things that had been handed down as
        >various kinds of traditions. Their innovation was to regard themselves as
        >arbiters of these traditions.

        I thought this was the role claimed by the "scribes" or "lawyers"
        (GRAMMATEIS, if I remember the correct spelling). Were they Pharisees, too?

        > In this, they were in conflict with Saduccees and
        >priests who did not respect the traditions the Pharisees adduced.

        Exactly.

        >However,
        >there was no reason to "convert" other Jews, who were apparently the ones
        >who were observing these varying traditions.
        >

        If they aspired to be the arbiters, they would need to convert the others
        at least enough to accept their role as arbiters. How else are they going
        to arbitrate?

        Bob
        "Is it not extraordinary to the point of being a miracle, that so loose
        and ill-constructed a narrative in an antique translation of a dubious
        text should after so many centuries still have power to quell and
        dominate a restless, opinionated, overexercised and undernourished,
        twentieth-century mind?"
        Malcolm Muggeridge _Jesus Rediscovered_ (1969), writing about
        the KJV New Testament -
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