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Re: Freedom of (Animated) Storytelling

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  • Ryan Catron
    Original animation has been strictly comical since the ink & paint days. When it comes to mature storytelling in animation, that s anime. I know that Gargoyles
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 29, 2008
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      Original animation has been strictly comical since the ink & paint
      days. When it comes to mature storytelling in animation, that's anime.
      I know that Gargoyles and Spawn broke barriers for being dramatic and
      more mature. But most people like to think that cartoons are for kids
    • Angelus
      On the subject of Reboot. Does anyone here have the artbook that they released last year? It s ABSOLUTELY AMAZING! It gives a look at a side of Reboot that I
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 1, 2008
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        On the subject of Reboot. Does anyone here have the artbook that they released last year? It's ABSOLUTELY AMAZING! It gives a look at a side of Reboot that I would have never thought of before.

        ~Sefina

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Sarah Hodge-Wetherbe
        To: crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 8:49 AM
        Subject: [crispin_freeman_fansite] Sarah H! Re: Freedom of (Animated) Storytelling


        > I so need to get those DVDs.

        Season 1 and the first half of season 2 is out. The 2nd set of season
        2 and the rest of the series was never released to DVD due to low
        sales. Grrrrrr.

        > I *do* know, for the interested, that a "Gargoyles" comic book series
        > is currently in production; I have the first three issues and they are
        > great. It's the same writer working on it. First class!

        Awesome you mentioned that, I plan to pick up the collected first
        volume next week!

        > Another show I just remembered that impressed me was "Reboot."

        Totally forgot about that one. I havent seen it in forever, but I do
        remember being really amused at all the computer name puns (Dot
        Matrix, Bob, Etc)





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rabbit_who_wished_for_redwings
        I d also like to throw Aeonflux into that list there. ... made Spawn would count as an example of forward thinking in animation. It was based on comics (read
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 5, 2008
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          I'd also like to throw Aeonflux into that list there.

          --- In crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com, GreenVixen
          <gatefan4@...> wrote:


          > I've been thinking of this as well and I guess I think the american-
          made Spawn would count as an example of forward thinking in animation.
          It was based on comics (read manga) and certainly has a basis in
          mythology, philosophy, faith, religion or what you may call it. It is
          certainly both original and mainstream and toys are available at major
          retailers (TRU, Kaybee Toys). I believe anything by Ralph Bakshi (e.g.
          the animated LOTR) qualifies as original US animation that doesn't
          conform. What about the Beatles Yellow Submarine? MTV's Spider-man? The
          film A Scanner Darkly? I am optimistic that we are at least making
          headway, even though as someone said, we won't be seeing Hellsing
          action figures at Wallyworld.

          > ~Ivy
        • Matthew To
          and the Heavy Metal movie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Metal_%28film%29 That caused me to be too scared to sleep when I was a kid. On Wed, Mar 5, 2008
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 19, 2008
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            and the Heavy Metal movie:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Metal_%28film%29

            That caused me to be too scared to sleep when I was a kid.

            On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 11:13 AM, rabbit_who_wished_for_redwings <
            kate.mcintosh@...> wrote:

            > I'd also like to throw Aeonflux into that list there.
            >
            > --- In crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com<crispin_freeman_fansite%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > GreenVixen
            > <gatefan4@...> wrote:
            >
            > > I've been thinking of this as well and I guess I think the american-
            > made Spawn would count as an example of forward thinking in animation.
            > It was based on comics (read manga) and certainly has a basis in
            > mythology, philosophy, faith, religion or what you may call it. It is
            > certainly both original and mainstream and toys are available at major
            > retailers (TRU, Kaybee Toys). I believe anything by Ralph Bakshi (e.g.
            > the animated LOTR) qualifies as original US animation that doesn't
            > conform. What about the Beatles Yellow Submarine? MTV's Spider-man? The
            > film A Scanner Darkly? I am optimistic that we are at least making
            > headway, even though as someone said, we won't be seeing Hellsing
            > action figures at Wallyworld.
            >
            > > ~Ivy
            >
            >
            >



            --
            Knowledge is valuable, but Friendship is invaluable.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Crispin Freeman
            Just so you know, it s not always the writer s fault when a story gets milked. Most of the time it is the producers who decide that they must pound a story
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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              Just so you know, it's not always the writer's fault when a story gets
              milked. Most of the time it is the producers who decide that they must
              pound a story into the ground and squeeze every last drop from it. Greg
              Weisman was not fond of what they did to Gargoyles when it became the
              Goliath Chronicles. He differed with the producers greatly, but in the end,
              the money people call the shots and the writers have to do what they are
              hired to do or else quit.
              --
              Crispin Freeman
              Voice Actor/Director
              crispinfreeman@...
              http://www.crispinfreeman.com


              > From: Joseph Nordwig <sinners_mistake@...>
              > Reply-To: <crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 23:46:48 -0800 (PST)
              > To: <crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: Re: [crispin_freeman_fansite] Freedom of (Animated) Storytelling
              >
              > I must say, this might date me a bit, but I do remember the Gargoyles series
              > from when I was a kid, and yes it was a good dramatic series. To a point.
              > Unfortunately, that series, like many others I've seen over the years always
              > suffer from the same fate: they want to drain every last cent from the
              > franchises, and wind up running the story long past it's completion, at least
              > the completion where it still makes any real degree of sense. I guess you can
              > link this being the last 'good' domestic dramatic animated series with this
              > being around the same time that, well, some writers just seemed to get lazy. I
              > guess the reason that you don't see many really good dramatic stories anymore
              > is because when it comes to drama, they recycle the same plot devices over and
              > over. I haven't seen many abroad anime series, but I will admit that some may
              > use the same devices over and over (i.e. "shinigami" in Death Note, Bleach,
              > and Zombie Loan), they're approached in new manners.
              >
              > Even now, some of those older series are headed for re-makes as those of us
              > who saw the Starz special noticed: Gatchaman, Speed Racer, and Astro Boy for
              > instance. But it's all recycling old, completed series. I guess to make a long
              > story short, writers should be focusing more on totally original ideas, and
              > not be afraid of being judged because after all, that's how some of the
              > greater stories in history were written, outside the box. I don't want to
              > sound like I'm bashing them for a lack of creativity, considering the strike
              > just ended not too long ago, but I just hope to see more completely original
              > ideas in the future.
              >
              > -Joe
              >
              > Crispin Freeman <crispinfreeman@...> wrote:
              > In my opinion, the last dramatic domestic animated show that really took
              > risks and told a great story was Gargoyles. That was over 10 years ago and
              > I don't see anything like that being made in this country by the studio
              > system anytime soon, if ever.
              >
              > I think things have definitely gotten worse in terms of domestic animated
              > storytelling. While I do like parts of Avatar, other parts are very
              > frustrating. The standard format for Avatar is that an emotional problem
              > for a character is introduced and then solved in the very same episode. I
              > find that very limiting. It makes the emotional resolution of the episode
              > feel very forced to me. I thought Titan AE was a mess story-wise. Kim
              > Possible is a very good show and a very solid show, but it's a comedy. It's
              > not a dramatic show like Gargoyles. I'm not familiar with Skyland or
              > Invasion: America so I can't comment.
              >
              > This situation will change when there is a cultural change in the way
              > America views comics and animation as a medium. Only when American culture
              > decides that animation and comics are not restricted to kiddie fare or adult
              > parody/satire, then we will start to see more shows like Gargoyles and
              > Wolf's Rain and Cowboy Bebop. That will take probably a generation of
              > people growing up on anime and manga to become the executives at studios in
              > order to green light those kind of projects.
              >
              > I do what I do because the generation before me in the late 70s early 80s
              > put things on TV like Battle of the Planets and Robotech. I watched those
              > shows as a kid and now I work on those types of shows. It may take another
              > 20 years before American culture grows up another notch.
              >
              > Or it may take less. The internet does tend to accelerate artistic and pop
              > culture trends. Who knows? Either way, I'm committed to working on
              > sophisticated, mature storytelling and reaching the audience that exists now
              > no matter how small or large they are. I think they are only gonna get
              > bigger, I just don't know how fast or how big.
              >
              > --
              > Crispin Freeman
              > Voice Actor/Director
              > crispinfreeman@...
              > http://www.crispinfreeman.com
              >
              >
              >
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            • PJ Olson
              It happens all the time. I remember Josh Whedon (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) and how he told his story that when the Buffy movie version came about (this is
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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                It happens all the time. I remember Josh Whedon (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) and how he told his story that when the Buffy movie version came about (this is before the TV series came into existence) it wasn't the way that he wanted it to be and had to cater to the "financial powers-that-be's" whims. So Buffy the movie turned into a campy series which he wasn't thrilled about. When he took WB's offer, from what was told he made an arrangement to call the shots so that he would have an opportunity to do Buffy the way that he wanted to. And so he succeeded...until another group of powers-that-be (financial again) got in the way of creativity again.

                There's many original, fresh ideas out there. The question is will there be a public to "buy" that idea. It happens not just in anime, books, or tv series. It also depends on the creator's perspective and his/her ability to capture the audience's imagination even though the concept might be something that had been used for a while.

                Bleach, Death Note, and Yami no Matsuei (Descendants of Darkness) have been up there on my list even though each story is a shinigami story. Out of the three, Death Note dared to go as dark as it could in terms of asking the question, "What would you do if you're given THAT power?"

                Kaori Yuri's works are also a fave of mine - Angel Sanctuary and the Count Cain/Godchild series. She dared explore such dark and controversial themes - angels and demons, mysterious Victorian England, incest, shounen-ai, etc. Many writers have explored such themes but she has a way of drawing the readers/watchers and making them see what she sees.

                Although there's much freedom now in storytelling, we still as a society have a long ways to go in terms of exploring rich stories, themes, etc.

                PJ

                Crispin Freeman <crispinfreeman@...> wrote:
                Just so you know, it's not always the writer's fault when a story gets
                milked. Most of the time it is the producers who decide that they must
                pound a story into the ground and squeeze every last drop from it. Greg
                Weisman was not fond of what they did to Gargoyles when it became the
                Goliath Chronicles. He differed with the producers greatly, but in the end,
                the money people call the shots and the writers have to do what they are
                hired to do or else quit.
                --
                Crispin Freeman
                Voice Actor/Director
                crispinfreeman@...
                http://www.crispinfreeman.com

                > From: Joseph Nordwig <sinners_mistake@...>
                > Reply-To: <crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com>
                > Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 23:46:48 -0800 (PST)
                > To: <crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: Re: [crispin_freeman_fansite] Freedom of (Animated) Storytelling
                >
                > I must say, this might date me a bit, but I do remember the Gargoyles series
                > from when I was a kid, and yes it was a good dramatic series. To a point.
                > Unfortunately, that series, like many others I've seen over the years always
                > suffer from the same fate: they want to drain every last cent from the
                > franchises, and wind up running the story long past it's completion, at least
                > the completion where it still makes any real degree of sense. I guess you can
                > link this being the last 'good' domestic dramatic animated series with this
                > being around the same time that, well, some writers just seemed to get lazy. I
                > guess the reason that you don't see many really good dramatic stories anymore
                > is because when it comes to drama, they recycle the same plot devices over and
                > over. I haven't seen many abroad anime series, but I will admit that some may
                > use the same devices over and over (i.e. "shinigami" in Death Note, Bleach,
                > and Zombie Loan), they're approached in new manners.
                >
                > Even now, some of those older series are headed for re-makes as those of us
                > who saw the Starz special noticed: Gatchaman, Speed Racer, and Astro Boy for
                > instance. But it's all recycling old, completed series. I guess to make a long
                > story short, writers should be focusing more on totally original ideas, and
                > not be afraid of being judged because after all, that's how some of the
                > greater stories in history were written, outside the box. I don't want to
                > sound like I'm bashing them for a lack of creativity, considering the strike
                > just ended not too long ago, but I just hope to see more completely original
                > ideas in the future.
                >
                > -Joe
                >
                > Crispin Freeman <crispinfreeman@...> wrote:
                > In my opinion, the last dramatic domestic animated show that really took
                > risks and told a great story was Gargoyles. That was over 10 years ago and
                > I don't see anything like that being made in this country by the studio
                > system anytime soon, if ever.
                >
                > I think things have definitely gotten worse in terms of domestic animated
                > storytelling. While I do like parts of Avatar, other parts are very
                > frustrating. The standard format for Avatar is that an emotional problem
                > for a character is introduced and then solved in the very same episode. I
                > find that very limiting. It makes the emotional resolution of the episode
                > feel very forced to me. I thought Titan AE was a mess story-wise. Kim
                > Possible is a very good show and a very solid show, but it's a comedy. It's
                > not a dramatic show like Gargoyles. I'm not familiar with Skyland or
                > Invasion: America so I can't comment.
                >
                > This situation will change when there is a cultural change in the way
                > America views comics and animation as a medium. Only when American culture
                > decides that animation and comics are not restricted to kiddie fare or adult
                > parody/satire, then we will start to see more shows like Gargoyles and
                > Wolf's Rain and Cowboy Bebop. That will take probably a generation of
                > people growing up on anime and manga to become the executives at studios in
                > order to green light those kind of projects.
                >
                > I do what I do because the generation before me in the late 70s early 80s
                > put things on TV like Battle of the Planets and Robotech. I watched those
                > shows as a kid and now I work on those types of shows. It may take another
                > 20 years before American culture grows up another notch.
                >
                > Or it may take less. The internet does tend to accelerate artistic and pop
                > culture trends. Who knows? Either way, I'm committed to working on
                > sophisticated, mature storytelling and reaching the audience that exists now
                > no matter how small or large they are. I think they are only gonna get
                > bigger, I just don't know how fast or how big.
                >
                > --
                > Crispin Freeman
                > Voice Actor/Director
                > crispinfreeman@...
                > http://www.crispinfreeman.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Recent Activity
                >
                > 15
                > New Members
                >
                > 5
                > New Photos
                >
                > Visit Your Group
                > Only
                > on Yahoo!
                > World of Star Wars
                > Meet fans, watch
                > videos & more.
                >
                > Cat Groups
                > on Yahoo! Groups
                > Share pictures &
                > stories about cats.
                >
                > Special K Group
                > on Yahoo! Groups
                > Learn how others
                > are losing pounds.
                >
                >
                >
                > .
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
                > now.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >






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              • ramothhe
                Ahh, more Gargoyles fans in here..hi! *waves* Yeah, alot of people were not fond of what happened to Gargoyles in TGC..but then you have so many dedicated fans
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
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                  Ahh, more Gargoyles fans in here..hi! *waves*

                  Yeah, alot of people were not fond of what happened to Gargoyles in
                  TGC..but then you have so many dedicated fans keeping it alive in
                  fanfiction at the Station8 website (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles), and
                  in Greg's blog, and in the Gargoyles yearly convention, and in the
                  Gargoyles comics.

                  Now if only Disney would go ahead and release the 2nd half of season
                  2 to dvd *crosses fingers* They may not because I am not sure of how
                  well the dvds are selling, despite the legion of loyal fans... ><

                  Mattie
                  ----------
                  DAS C.hief E.xecutive O.taku
                  Delaware Anime Society: The Rising Sun in the First State and Beyond
                  http://www.delawareanimesociety.com

                  Zenkaikon 2008 Co-Chair
                  http://www.zenkaikon.com

                  --- In crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com, Crispin Freeman
                  <crispinfreeman@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Just so you know, it's not always the writer's fault when a story
                  gets milked. Most of the time it is the producers who decide that
                  they must pound a story into the ground and squeeze every last drop
                  from it. Greg Weisman was not fond of what they did to Gargoyles
                  when it became the Goliath Chronicles. He differed with the
                  producers greatly, but in the end,the money people call the shots and
                  the writers have to do what they are hired to do or else quit.
                  > --
                  > Crispin Freeman
                  > Voice Actor/Director
                  > crispinfreeman@...
                  > http://www.crispinfreeman.com
                  >
                  >
                  > > From: Joseph Nordwig <sinners_mistake@...>
                  > > Reply-To: <crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 23:46:48 -0800 (PST)
                  > > To: <crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Subject: Re: [crispin_freeman_fansite] Freedom of (Animated)
                  Storytelling
                  > >
                  > > I must say, this might date me a bit, but I do remember the
                  Gargoyles series
                  > > from when I was a kid, and yes it was a good dramatic series. To
                  a point.
                  > > Unfortunately, that series, like many others I've seen over the
                  years always
                  > > suffer from the same fate: they want to drain every last cent
                  from the
                  > > franchises, and wind up running the story long past it's
                  completion, at least
                  > > the completion where it still makes any real degree of sense. I
                  guess you can
                  > > link this being the last 'good' domestic dramatic animated series
                  with this
                  > > being around the same time that, well, some writers just seemed
                  to get lazy. I
                  > > guess the reason that you don't see many really good dramatic
                  stories anymore
                  > > is because when it comes to drama, they recycle the same plot
                  devices over and
                  > > over. I haven't seen many abroad anime series, but I will admit
                  that some may
                  > > use the same devices over and over (i.e. "shinigami" in Death
                  Note, Bleach,
                  > > and Zombie Loan), they're approached in new manners.
                  > >
                  > > Even now, some of those older series are headed for re-makes as
                  those of us
                  > > who saw the Starz special noticed: Gatchaman, Speed Racer, and
                  Astro Boy for
                  > > instance. But it's all recycling old, completed series. I guess
                  to make a long
                  > > story short, writers should be focusing more on totally original
                  ideas, and
                  > > not be afraid of being judged because after all, that's how some
                  of the
                  > > greater stories in history were written, outside the box. I don't
                  want to
                  > > sound like I'm bashing them for a lack of creativity, considering
                  the strike
                  > > just ended not too long ago, but I just hope to see more
                  completely original
                  > > ideas in the future.
                  > >
                  > > -Joe
                  > >
                  > >
                • Crispin Freeman
                  Aeon Flux was well ahead of its time. I was always so impressed with that show. That is probably one of the very few domestically produced series that really
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 27, 2008
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                    Aeon Flux was well ahead of its time. I was always so impressed with that
                    show. That is probably one of the very few domestically produced series
                    that really have that edginess that I find in the best anime.
                    --
                    Crispin Freeman
                    Voice Actor/Director
                    crispinfreeman@...
                    http://www.crispinfreeman.com


                    > From: rabbit_who_wished_for_redwings <kate.mcintosh@...>
                    > Reply-To: <crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 15:13:29 -0000
                    > To: <crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: [crispin_freeman_fansite] Re: Freedom of (Animated) Storytelling
                    >
                    > I'd also like to throw Aeonflux into that list there.
                    >
                    > --- In crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com, GreenVixen
                    > <gatefan4@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >> I've been thinking of this as well and I guess I think the american-
                    > made Spawn would count as an example of forward thinking in animation.
                    > It was based on comics (read manga) and certainly has a basis in
                    > mythology, philosophy, faith, religion or what you may call it. It is
                    > certainly both original and mainstream and toys are available at major
                    > retailers (TRU, Kaybee Toys). I believe anything by Ralph Bakshi (e.g.
                    > the animated LOTR) qualifies as original US animation that doesn't
                    > conform. What about the Beatles Yellow Submarine? MTV's Spider-man? The
                    > film A Scanner Darkly? I am optimistic that we are at least making
                    > headway, even though as someone said, we won't be seeing Hellsing
                    > action figures at Wallyworld.
                    >
                    >> ~Ivy
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Dave-dono
                    That is probably because Aeon Flux was directed by a Korean director named Peter Chung. He also directed one of the segments of Animatrix. Dave-dono ... with
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 27, 2008
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                      That is probably because Aeon Flux was directed by a Korean director
                      named Peter Chung. He also directed one of the segments of Animatrix.

                      Dave-dono



                      --- In crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com, Crispin Freeman
                      <crispinfreeman@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Aeon Flux was well ahead of its time. I was always so impressed
                      with that
                      > show. That is probably one of the very few domestically produced
                      series
                      > that really have that edginess that I find in the best anime.
                      > --
                      > Crispin Freeman
                      > Voice Actor/Director
                      > crispinfreeman@...
                      > http://www.crispinfreeman.com
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