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Re: [crispin_freeman_fansite] Buying Vs Online

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  • Jennifer Hulsey
    I do agree about the downloads. And the online websites are very helpful for anyone that wants to watch anime in a legal way. I would also agree with having a
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 2, 2012
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      I do agree about the downloads. And the online websites are very helpful for anyone that wants to watch anime in a legal way. I would also agree with having a DVD copy. ^^


      All in all, I was pretty much just curious about other people's opinions about such topics.

      Thank you for answering, and sorry it took me so long to reply.


      -Jenn



      ________________________________
      From: scytale <scytale@...>
      To: crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:05 PM
      Subject: Re: [crispin_freeman_fansite] Buying Vs Online


       
      > I was wondering what your opinion was about buying anime and manga,
      > or watching/reading them online? Or even downloading them?

      If you're asking about illegal downloads, the answer to this one is simple. Anime is not a right, it is a product. Acquiring anime illegally, whether by downloads, bootlegs, or what have you, it is damaging to the industry which is entirely reliant on the revenue from advertisers or directly from fans. As a fan it angers me to hear that people continue to do this, for any reason.

      Things have really changed in the last couple of years to make anime much more available than it ever has been. There are now many online sites (funimation.com, vizanime.com, hulu.com, crunchyroll.com, and others) which offer legal streaming of many, many series, a number of which come out here within of day of airing in Japan. The only price we need to pay is to sit through a couple minutes of ads. It's simply wonderful.

      Personally, I'm old school. I'd rather own a series on DVD or Blu-ray and keep it on my shelves. I often hold off on watching a series online if I think it will get a release here. But that's only as long as there is stuff to watch online (legally) which I don't think will ever get a release -- and boy is there a lot. Older stuff like Captain Harlock and Galaxy Express 999, shoujo series like Yumeiro Patisserie and Skip Beat, sports series like Slam Dunk and Saki, and stuff that's gone a couple years without any announcements like Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu and Tatami Galaxy. I've seen a lot and there's an awful lot more to see.

      For anyone starving for anime, I highly recommend using some of these legal online resources.

      Don (Scytale) Zimmerman
      Moderator



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Gary
      Sites like CrunchyRoll are good for me as they give a way to Try before I buy . I agree that licenced Anime is a product and should be respected and
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 2, 2012
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        Sites like CrunchyRoll are good for me as they give a way to "Try before I buy". I agree that licenced Anime is a product and should be respected and purchased, and I do purchase if I like a series.

        Where things get grey for me is with fansubs of unlicenced anime. Often they are the only way for English speakers to get copies of the shows at all. I've found interesting fansubs, often of older anime or manga, that I can't find available for purchase anywhere, not even from Japan in their original language only. And heck, I've even gone as far as buying old laserdisks so I could purchase the anime legally (I do still have a working player, amazingly...). I stick to sites like AnimeSuki which pull licenced anime from their lists, but I do wonder from time to time if that's good enough.

        Opinions?



        --- In crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Hulsey <jenn_fred_and_larry@...> wrote:
        >
        > I do agree about the downloads. And the online websites are very helpful for anyone that wants to watch anime in a legal way. I would also agree with having a DVD copy. ^^
        >
        >
        > All in all, I was pretty much just curious about other people's opinions about such topics.
        >
        > Thank you for answering, and sorry it took me so long to reply.
        >
        >
        > -Jenn
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: scytale <scytale@...>
        > To: crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:05 PM
        > Subject: Re: [crispin_freeman_fansite] Buying Vs Online
        >
        >
        >  
        > > I was wondering what your opinion was about buying anime and manga,
        > > or watching/reading them online? Or even downloading them?
        >
        > If you're asking about illegal downloads, the answer to this one is simple. Anime is not a right, it is a product. Acquiring anime illegally, whether by downloads, bootlegs, or what have you, it is damaging to the industry which is entirely reliant on the revenue from advertisers or directly from fans. As a fan it angers me to hear that people continue to do this, for any reason.
        >
        > Things have really changed in the last couple of years to make anime much more available than it ever has been. There are now many online sites (funimation.com, vizanime.com, hulu.com, crunchyroll.com, and others) which offer legal streaming of many, many series, a number of which come out here within of day of airing in Japan. The only price we need to pay is to sit through a couple minutes of ads. It's simply wonderful.
        >
        > Personally, I'm old school. I'd rather own a series on DVD or Blu-ray and keep it on my shelves. I often hold off on watching a series online if I think it will get a release here. But that's only as long as there is stuff to watch online (legally) which I don't think will ever get a release -- and boy is there a lot. Older stuff like Captain Harlock and Galaxy Express 999, shoujo series like Yumeiro Patisserie and Skip Beat, sports series like Slam Dunk and Saki, and stuff that's gone a couple years without any announcements like Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu and Tatami Galaxy. I've seen a lot and there's an awful lot more to see.
        >
        > For anyone starving for anime, I highly recommend using some of these legal online resources.
        >
        > Don (Scytale) Zimmerman
        > Moderator
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • scytale
        ... Even though it seems like a grey area, it is not. The reality is that just because something exists does not mean we have a right to see it (unless it s in
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 3, 2012
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          > Where things get grey for me is with fansubs of unlicenced anime.
          > Often they are the only way for English speakers to get copies of
          > the shows at all. I've found interesting fansubs, often of older
          > anime or manga, that I can't find available for purchase anywhere,
          > not even from Japan in their original language only.

          Even though it seems like a grey area, it is not. The reality is that just because something exists does not mean we have a right to see it (unless it's in the public domain, of course). It's a shame when rights-holders, for whatever reasons, withhold their products from us, but that is their right. These properties have value, value that is diminished by the fact that it is illegally copied and distributed.

          I could probably list dozens of shows I would bleed money to be able to see, but I will not without a proper license. And sadly, that may never happen.


          > And heck, I've even gone as far as buying old laserdisks so I
          > could purchase the anime legally (I do still have a working player,
          > amazingly...).

          Awesome...


          > I stick to sites like AnimeSuki which pull licenced anime from their lists,
          > but I do wonder from time to time if that's good enough.

          That sounds nice, but no it's not enough. Bottom line, the damage has been done. The anime community, particularly here in the US, is moving more and more heavily to a "see it once" model vs the owning model of the past. Without a doubt I would say that the majority of shows nowadays are watched once or twice (almost certainly online), and then done. Even those that claim to buy the shows they watch only do that for the ones they like, not paying their dues for the ones they didn't.

          The Japanese anime companies have been going after fansubbing sites for a while now, as well they should. The value of their properties is diminished by unlawful distribution. And not just value of properties they are actively trying to sell.


          Don (Scytale) Zimmerman
          Moderator
        • Dale Swalley
          So I ve read the article over at ANN, and while I agree it s terrible news, a part of me wonders if they won t go the route of ADV. that us split into separate
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 3, 2012
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            So I've read the article over at ANN, and while I agree it's terrible news, a part of me wonders if they won't go the route of ADV. that us split into separate entities and each handle one specific area of the product.
            Also I do remember tiger was once Pioneer, that became Geneon, that became Bandai. Remember what the gentleman said "nothing is written in stone yet"! They might restructure under another name, or as the article stated go direct to the American market and "cut out the middle man" as was stated by a poster on ANN.
            Also it was said that the Japanese ARE going after piracy, fine but it might be a case of too little too late, and support the possibility of a very public arrest at a convention just to show they mean business!
            Lastly until the economy picks up and jobs become available again there isn't going to be much buying of anything! And that's the bottom line! And while I do have a job and can afford a $100 a month anime habit, many of my fellow otaku can't and I can understand why. The stuff isn't cheap and streaming online sites are a good way to "try before you buy". Secondly sites line AnimeSuki ONLY show non-licensed anime and once the word is out that it is licensed, it is immediately pulled and any attempt buy its members too advertise or distribute pirate sites is strictly forbidden!
            I'll miss BANDAI, they always had a class act and first class anime!
            Dale "Heavy45hitter"
          • Gary
            Is there anyway to tell if something is public domain? Also, I am curious, sites like AnimeSuki, though they don t do the actual subbing do things like the
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 3, 2012
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              Is there anyway to tell if something is public domain?

              Also, I am curious, sites like AnimeSuki, though they don't do the actual subbing do things like the distributing. Maybe I've missed something, but so far, unlike non complying sites like Pirate Bay, I don't recall anyone going after AnimeSuki as long as they pull anything they get asked to. Their apparently tollerated operation raises confusion for me about when is something public domain, or "fair usage", or any other legal access, and when is it wrong? I'm not the most legally savy guy, I just love anime. But I'm not trying to hurt anyone either.

              >Even though it seems like a grey area, it is not. The reality is that >just because something exists does not mean we have a right to see it >(unless it's in the public domain, of course). It's a shame when >rights-holders, for whatever reasons, withhold their products from us, >but that is their right. These properties have value, value that is >diminished by the fact that it is illegally copied and distributed.
            • scytale
              ... Something goes into the public domain if the owner does not wish to retain the intellectual property rights. This doesn t normally happen unless something
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 4, 2012
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                > Is there anyway to tell if something is public domain?

                Something goes into the public domain if the owner does not wish to retain the intellectual property rights. This doesn't normally happen unless something is quite old. Don't expect to see anime series in the public domain anytime soon.


                > Also, I am curious, sites like AnimeSuki, though they don't
                > do the actual subbing do things like the distributing. Maybe
                > I've missed something, but so far, unlike non complying sites
                > like Pirate Bay, I don't recall anyone going after AnimeSuki as
                > long as they pull anything they get asked to. Their apparently
                > tollerated operation raises confusion for me about when is
                > something public domain, or "fair usage", or any other legal
                > access, and when is it wrong?

                It's illegal, plain and simple. And harmful. It's easy to argue that it's ok to watch something through sites like AnimeSuki if they aren't licensed here yet. But that is not the case. Just because a show exists does not mean we have the right to see it. In fact, since these shows are available online for free decreases their value and makes them less likely to be licensed here, especially for online streaming rights. These days people to tend to watch a show once then move on, and if that first time is an illegal source, no money goes to the creators.

                Just because no one has (yet) gone after AnimeSuki does not mean that it is tolerated. The problem is that legal action is a time-consuming and potentially costly process. They just don't have the time or resources to go after everyone at once.


                A general note to everyone on the fansite. Rule #5 of the fansite is:

                5. Do not promote piracy (YouTube/downloading/bootlegs). Support Crispin and his peers. BUY LEGIT MEDIA.

                There is no grey area here. If the distribution source does not hold the proper rights, they should not be distributing it and are harming the industry. Please do not promote these sources here on the fansite. That includes seemingly acceptable sources like AnimeSuki.


                Don (Scytale) Zimmerman
                Moderator
              • Crispin Freeman
                Geneon did not become Bandai. They have always been separate companies. Both have now fallen. ADV restructured into almost non-existence, possibly as a ploy
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 4, 2012
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                  Geneon did not "become" Bandai. They have always been separate companies. Both have now fallen. ADV restructured into almost non-existence, possibly as a ploy to avoid others taking their intellectual property through bankruptcy or other means. Funimation is now the only large distributor of anime that I am aware of.

                  North American Anime Companies that have collapsed:
                  Central Park Media (including Software Sculptors, U.S. Manga Corps, etc.)
                  Pioneer/Geneon
                  Bandai
                  ADV Films

                  And those were the heavies of the anime world in North America.
                  --
                  Crispin Freeman
                  Voice Actor / Director
                  fanmail@...
                  http://www.crispinfreeman.com

                  On Jan 3, 2012, at 4:57 PM, Dale Swalley wrote:

                  > So I've read the article over at ANN, and while I agree it's terrible news, a part of me wonders if they won't go the route of ADV. that us split into separate entities and each handle one specific area of the product.
                  > Also I do remember tiger was once Pioneer, that became Geneon, that became Bandai. Remember what the gentleman said "nothing is written in stone yet"! They might restructure under another name, or as the article stated go direct to the American market and "cut out the middle man" as was stated by a poster on ANN.
                  > Also it was said that the Japanese ARE going after piracy, fine but it might be a case of too little too late, and support the possibility of a very public arrest at a convention just to show they mean business!
                  > Lastly until the economy picks up and jobs become available again there isn't going to be much buying of anything! And that's the bottom line! And while I do have a job and can afford a $100 a month anime habit, many of my fellow otaku can't and I can understand why. The stuff isn't cheap and streaming online sites are a good way to "try before you buy". Secondly sites line AnimeSuki ONLY show non-licensed anime and once the word is out that it is licensed, it is immediately pulled and any attempt buy its members too advertise or distribute pirate sites is strictly forbidden!
                  > I'll miss BANDAI, they always had a class act and first class anime!
                  > Dale "Heavy45hitter"
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • scytale
                  ... Ten years ago I wouldn t have believed it. Not many players from the golden years left. Viz is still running. Not as prominently as they once were,
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 4, 2012
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                    > North American Anime Companies that have collapsed:
                    > Central Park Media (including Software Sculptors, U.S. Manga Corps, etc.)
                    > Pioneer/Geneon
                    > Bandai
                    > ADV Films
                    >
                    > And those were the heavies of the anime world in North America.

                    Ten years ago I wouldn't have believed it.

                    Not many players from the golden years left. Viz is still running. Not as prominently as they once were, perhaps, but still putting out material consistently. Media Blasters is hanging in there too.

                    These days FUNimation is king of the hill, no doubt. Sentai Filmworks (originally a part of ADV) has been cranking out the releases too, enough to keep me busy anyways. Nozomi continues to put out quality releases. Newcomers NIS and Aniplex have been doing some good work lately too. There still is a fair amount of stuff coming out, actually; on average I watch ~20 episodes a week to keep up.

                    There are definitely a heck of a lot less dubs than there used to be. FUNimation and Viz are the only ones that religiously dub everything. All the other players only dub the higher-profile titles. Brings a tear to the eye.

                    Don (Scytale) Zimmerman
                    Moderator
                  • demon_rin2
                    I always prefer to own anime. I ll watch it online, if available. The One Piece simulcast FUNimation does is absolutely wonderful for example, but I also buy
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 7, 2012
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                      I always prefer to own anime. I'll watch it online, if available. The One Piece simulcast FUNimation does is absolutely wonderful for example, but I also buy every One Piece DVD they release. (that's not a repack)

                      Seriously, I buy anime that I can't buy here. When Geneon USA went belly-up and the Hellsing OVA series went on US hiatus, I still kept buying the Region 2 DVDs (No, not Chinese bootlegs. Region 2 DVDs that only play on a special player and have no subs) because I love to support the people making this stuff. (The fact that I run a Hellsing website has kinda something to do with it, but yeah)

                      --- In crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer" <jenn_fred_and_larry@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Greetings!
                      >
                      > I was wondering what your opinion was about buying anime and manga, or watching/reading them online? Or even downloading them?
                      >
                      > I can understand buying to support everything, but there are a lot of people that cannot afford to buy manga or anime. Or even those who have to get their daily fix of anime or manga online because they are not really allowed to own such things.
                      >
                      > And then, there is also the fact that a lot of people who do, in fact, watch or read it online fully intend to buy it when they have a chance.
                      >
                      > So, what do you think?
                      >
                      > Thanks for taking the time to read this. ^^
                      >
                      > ~Jenn
                      >
                    • Gary
                      I wasn t trying to promote anything, I wanted information. I am sorry if I seemed to be promoting any site of questionable legality, that was not my intention,
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 10, 2012
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                        I wasn't trying to promote anything, I wanted information. I am sorry if I seemed to be promoting any site of questionable legality, that was not my intention, I just don't know how to ask about specific sites if I can't name them. I guess this isn't the site for this discussion.

                        --- In crispin_freeman_fansite@yahoogroups.com, "scytale" <scytale@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Is there anyway to tell if something is public domain?
                        >
                        > Something goes into the public domain if the owner does not wish to retain the intellectual property rights. This doesn't normally happen unless something is quite old. Don't expect to see anime series in the public domain anytime soon.
                        >
                        >
                        > > Also, I am curious, sites like AnimeSuki, though they don't
                        > > do the actual subbing do things like the distributing. Maybe
                        > > I've missed something, but so far, unlike non complying sites
                        > > like Pirate Bay, I don't recall anyone going after AnimeSuki as
                        > > long as they pull anything they get asked to. Their apparently
                        > > tollerated operation raises confusion for me about when is
                        > > something public domain, or "fair usage", or any other legal
                        > > access, and when is it wrong?
                        >
                        > It's illegal, plain and simple. And harmful. It's easy to argue that it's ok to watch something through sites like AnimeSuki if they aren't licensed here yet. But that is not the case. Just because a show exists does not mean we have the right to see it. In fact, since these shows are available online for free decreases their value and makes them less likely to be licensed here, especially for online streaming rights. These days people to tend to watch a show once then move on, and if that first time is an illegal source, no money goes to the creators.
                        >
                        > Just because no one has (yet) gone after AnimeSuki does not mean that it is tolerated. The problem is that legal action is a time-consuming and potentially costly process. They just don't have the time or resources to go after everyone at once.
                        >
                        >
                        > A general note to everyone on the fansite. Rule #5 of the fansite is:
                        >
                        > 5. Do not promote piracy (YouTube/downloading/bootlegs). Support Crispin and his peers. BUY LEGIT MEDIA.
                        >
                        > There is no grey area here. If the distribution source does not hold the proper rights, they should not be distributing it and are harming the industry. Please do not promote these sources here on the fansite. That includes seemingly acceptable sources like AnimeSuki.
                        >
                        >
                        > Don (Scytale) Zimmerman
                        > Moderator
                        >
                      • scytale
                        ... No, no, not at all. Asking about these things is all well and good and I m more than happy to answer questions. But this is a touchy topic in the anime
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 10, 2012
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                          > I wasn't trying to promote anything, I wanted information. I am sorry
                          > if I seemed to be promoting any site of questionable legality, that was
                          > not my intention, I just don't know how to ask about specific sites if I
                          > can't name them. I guess this isn't the site for this discussion.

                          No, no, not at all. Asking about these things is all well and good and I'm more than happy to answer questions. But this is a touchy topic in the anime community and prone to strong opinions. The reminder about the rules was not meant to point fingers but rather to clarify to everyone here the stance of this fansite on the matter before this discussion continues further.

                          This is a very important topic in the anime world and the greater digital age we are in, and it comes up from time to time here on the fansite. In the past some have even stepped up to try to do something about it (check out the fansite's Links section). It, sadly, is not an issue that is going to go away.

                          Don (Scytale) Zimmerman
                          Moderator
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