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Re: [creat] Dr. Fazale Rana

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  • drvr2hrdwr
    ... From: Dave Oldridge To: creationism@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [creat] Dr. Fazale Rana ... apparently ... to ...
    Message 1 of 188 , Oct 31, 2004
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Dave Oldridge
      To: creationism@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:57 PM
      Subject: Re: [creat] Dr. Fazale Rana


      On 31 Oct 2004 at 7:36, drvr2hrdwr wrote:

      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Kevin Nelson kg6grm
      > To: creationism@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 2:08 AM
      > Subject: RE: [creat] Dr. Fazale Rana
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: drvr2hrdwr [mailto:drvr2hrdwr@...]
      > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 7:32 PM
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Dave Oldridge
      > > Neil3: You offered that the presence of a "creation" is evidence of a
      > special > [creation] miracle. That is begging the question, but
      apparently
      > you
      > are to
      > > thick to understand that.
      >
      > Based on a theological premise that both I and the person I was writing
      to
      > agree with. Feel free to think anything YOU want to. I haven't the time
      > or
      > the inclination to enlighten you.
      > Neil4: Sure, if one starts with the premise that the universe was created,
      > then the presence of this creation indicates that a special creation
      miracle
      > was performed.
      >
      > Among Christians such as yourself, this seems to be what passes for
      > enlightenment.
      >
      >
      > Kevin: But if you categorically deny that there could be a supernatural
      > element right from the start,
      > Neil3: No, I started out as a Christian, but when I grew out of my childhood
      I
      > put away such childish things.
      >
      > One of the reasons that I rejected Christianity was the silly arguments
      > Christians put forth against evolution, and the even sillier arguments they
      put
      > forth in favor of creationism. Adam and Eve, Noah, Jesus? How silly.
      >
      >
      > you are not open to what may be true.
      > Likewise, if I start by denying that naturalistic evolution could have
      taken
      > place, I am also not open.
      >
      > True science requires all possibilities to be on the plate.
      > Neil3: When YEC, or black magic, or voodoo, or astrology can produce some
      > actual scientific evidence for their silly speculations then they will be "on
      > the plate".
      >
      > You Christians crack me up. You want your particular superstition taken
      > seriously, by you don't want any other superstition taken seriously.

      I don't care WHAT superstition you take seriously. What I want is for people
      to stay on topic in these debates. But you and Leon both take arguments
      against anti-evolution fanaticism to be an excuse for making, not arguments,
      but silly (and irrelevant) insults against the beliefs of Christians. You do
      it in order to spark anger and, to some extent you succeed. But, hey. It also
      shows that you're not really debating here on topic.
      Neil4: Um, Dave, this list is called "creationism". That has to do with the superstitious notion that a God created life, either directly, or by means of a perfect watch universe creation.

      Creationists often bring up arguments that beg the question, assert a false dichotomy, and commit various other fallacies.

      You are the one who said other Gods are "weird". Yet you get all bent out of shape when I say your God is "weird", or otherwise characterize your Christian position as just another silly superstition.

      You don't mind putting down other superstitions, but you can't stand having Christianity (correctly) placed in that same category.

      My purpose is not to spark anger, it is to point out that what you consider to be a reasonable distinction between Christianity and "weird" Gods is actually a false distinction. All Gods are "weird".







      Dave Oldridge
      ICQ 1800667
      VA7CZ



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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dave Oldridge
      ... of a ... this ... could ... the ... sillier ... Likewise, ... place, ... the ... produce ... will ... particular ... taken ... people ... arguments, ... do
      Message 188 of 188 , Nov 1, 2004
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        On 31 Oct 2004 at 20:33, drvr2hrdwr wrote:

        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Dave Oldridge
        > To: creationism@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:57 PM
        > Subject: Re: [creat] Dr. Fazale Rana
        >
        >
        > On 31 Oct 2004 at 7:36, drvr2hrdwr wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Kevin Nelson kg6grm
        > > To: creationism@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 2:08 AM
        > > Subject: RE: [creat] Dr. Fazale Rana
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: drvr2hrdwr [mailto:drvr2hrdwr@...]
        > > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 7:32 PM
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Dave Oldridge
        > > > Neil3: You offered that the presence of a "creation" is evidence
        of a
        > > special > [creation] miracle. That is begging the question, but
        > apparently > you > are to > > thick to understand that. > >
        > Based on a theological premise that both I and the person I was writing to
        >
        > agree with. Feel free to think anything YOU want to. I haven't the time
        >
        > or > the inclination to enlighten you. > Neil4: Sure, if one starts
        > with the premise that the universe was created, > then the presence of
        this
        > creation indicates that a special creation miracle > was performed. > >
        > Among Christians such as yourself, this seems to be what passes for >
        > enlightenment. > > > Kevin: But if you categorically deny that there
        could
        > be a supernatural > element right from the start, > Neil3: No, I started
        > out as a Christian, but when I grew out of my childhood I > put away such
        > childish things. > > One of the reasons that I rejected Christianity was
        the
        > silly arguments > Christians put forth against evolution, and the even
        sillier
        > arguments they put > forth in favor of creationism. Adam and Eve, Noah,
        > Jesus? How silly. > > > you are not open to what may be true. >
        Likewise,
        > if I start by denying that naturalistic evolution could have taken >
        place,
        > I am also not open. > > True science requires all possibilities to be on
        the
        > plate. > Neil3: When YEC, or black magic, or voodoo, or astrology can
        produce
        > some > actual scientific evidence for their silly speculations then they
        will
        > be "on > the plate". > > You Christians crack me up. You want your
        particular
        > superstition taken > seriously, by you don't want any other superstition
        taken
        > seriously.
        >
        > I don't care WHAT superstition you take seriously. What I want is for
        people
        > to stay on topic in these debates. But you and Leon both take arguments
        > against anti-evolution fanaticism to be an excuse for making, not
        arguments,
        > but silly (and irrelevant) insults against the beliefs of Christians. You
        do
        > it in order to spark anger and, to some extent you succeed. But, hey. It
        > also shows that you're not really debating here on topic.
        > Neil4: Um, Dave, this list is called "creationism". That has to do with the
        > superstitious notion that a God created life, either directly, or by means of
        a
        > perfect watch universe creation.
        >
        > Creationists often bring up arguments that beg the question, assert a false
        > dichotomy, and commit various other fallacies.
        >
        > You are the one who said other Gods are "weird". Yet you get all bent out of
        > shape when I say your God is "weird", or otherwise characterize your
        Christian
        > position as just another silly superstition.
        >
        > You don't mind putting down other superstitions, but you can't stand having
        > Christianity (correctly) placed in that same category.

        Actually, you don't see me putting down other religions that much. Religion,
        you see, is a progressive revelation of the divine. As long as you ignore
        that, you will miss the whole point of the exercise.

        > My purpose is not to spark anger, it is to point out that what you consider
        > to be a reasonable distinction between Christianity and "weird" Gods is
        > actually a false distinction. All Gods are "weird".

        Some are weirder than others. Mammon and Moloch are an interesting pair and
        still find plenty of worshippers in today's world.


        Dave Oldridge
        ICQ 1800667
        VA7CZ
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