Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: WHAT'S BEFORE " THE BEGINNING"?

Expand Messages
  • tinroad66
    ... ... A MAN - ... heaven. ... SINLESS ... THE ... it ... THE ... gloat. ... LIKE -- ... HAVE ... me. ... But ... first ... when ... all ... do
    Message 1 of 21 , May 1, 2003
      --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "teleocat"
      <cat.c@n...> wrote:
      > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1"
      <qkvcs@w...>
      > wrote:
      > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "teleocat"
      > <cat.c@n...> wrote:
      > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1"
      > <qkvcs@w...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, piasan@a...
      > wrote:
      > > > > > In a message dated 4/29/03 5:26:25 AM Central Daylight Time,
      > > > qkvcs@w...
      > > > > > writes:
      > > > > >
      > <snip>
      > > > > >
      > > > > ---------------------------------------------
      > > > > GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE AS ADULTS -NOT INFANTS.
      > > > >
      > > > > GOD CREATED THE STARS "...TO GIVE LIGHT UPON THE EARTH..." -
      > > > GENESIS 1 :14
      > > > >
      > > > > ---------------------------------------------
      > > > > IN THE SAME WAY GOD DIDNT CREATE ADAM AS AN INFANT BUT
      A "MAN" -
      > > > GENESIS 1:27
      > > > > GOD CREATED THE STARS "MATURE" WITH THIER LIGHT ALREADY ON THE
      > EARTH
      > > > AS THAT WAS THIER PURPOSE --" TO GIVE LIGHT UPON THE EARTH"
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > You seem blissfully sure of these things. Can other people
      > achieve
      > > > this kind of state if they try, or does it have to be directly
      > > > implanted by God?
      > >
      > > "FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD"
      > >
      > > If it comes directly from God, then you're one of
      > > > the chosen ones. Congratulations, you get a free pass to
      heaven.
      > Bon
      > > > voyage.
      > >
      > > IT'S NOT EXACTLY FREE -- IT COST THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIS
      SINLESS
      > BLOOD, THAT HE SHED ON THE CROSS AS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR
      > SINS.--ROMANS 3:25
      > >
      > > HIS SACRIFICE "SATISFIED" THE LORD;BY JESUS CHRIST'S SHED BLOOD
      THE
      > PENALTY FOR OUR SINSHAS BEEN PAYED 2000 YEARS AGO - IN FULL!!!--
      > ISAIAH 53:10-11--HEBREWS 1:3.
      > >
      > > > However, if it comes through faith, then the evolutionists have
      > > > strangely chosen not to give their faith to Him. Apparently for
      > no
      > > > good reason.
      > >
      > > "AND THIS IS THE CONDEMNATION , THAT LIGHT IS COME INTO THE WORLD,
      > AND MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, BECAUSE THIER DEEDS WERE
      > EVIL"
      > >
      > > ---JOHN 3:19
      > >
      > >
      > > It must be pure hate. I don't know why they would pick
      > > > your god in particular to hate, but either way, there's no drugs
      > that
      > > > can cure pure hate. Again, lucky you.
      > > >
      > > > If it comes from clear evidence, then either you haven't shared
      it
      > > > with everyone else yet, or the evolutionists are hopelessly
      > retarded.
      > > >
      > > NOBODY ON HERE IS THAT DUMB NOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT EVOLTION IS A
      > LIE-- THEY ARE "WILLINGLY IGNORANT"-2 PETER 3:5-
      > > BECASE ACKNOWLEDGING THIER CREATOR WOULD OBVIOUSLY BRING WITH IT
      THE
      > REQUIREMENT OF SUBMISSION TO HIS WILL. THE RELUCTANCE TO GIVE UP
      > LIVING IN THE FLESH KEEPS MEN FROM ACKNOWLEDGING HIM.
      > > READ JOHN 3.
      > >
      > >
      > > Once again, you're one of the chosen ones. It's not nice to
      gloat.
      > > > Actually, it's kind of mean.
      > >
      > > YOU PEOPLE ARE SO THICKHEADED IT'S ALL I CAN DO TO GET YOU TO SEE
      > THE UTTER STUPIDITY OF " THE BIG BANG, ABIOGENESIS,AND THE VIOLATION
      > OF KNOWN SCIENTIFIC FACTS THAT EVOLUTION CANNOT COEXIST WITH,
      LIKE --
      > THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS AND ALL THAT IS OBSERVED ABOUT GENETICS
      > ETC,......
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > This "God" guy seems like a divisive
      > > > fellow. The poor evolutionists are stuck following a god that
      > unites
      > > > by attraction, not by edict.
      > >
      > > HE ONLY SEEMS DIVISIVE TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE UNAWARE THAT YOU
      HAVE
      > BEEN DECIEVED BY SATAN. -- MATTHEW 10:34
      > >
      >
      > I try to be a good Christian, but some of it doesn't make sense to
      me.
      > I've started to pick and choose a little. Do you kill the offering
      > on the *north* side of the altar as Leviticus requires? I don't.
      But
      > I make sure I remember to "sprinkle his blood round about upon the
      > altar." The neighbors have stopped calling the police after the
      first
      > few times.
      >
      > My neighbor mows his lawn on the seventh day and Exodus says that
      > "whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death." Seems a little
      > harsh, but I figured I'd do my part and try to get people from my
      > church to come over for the stoning. Nobody showed up! They seem to
      > pick and choose too. I wasn't sure if that was allowed, but then I
      > saw what C.S. Lewis wrote about it.
      >
      > "[Some will say] 'ah, but we are fallen and don't recognize good
      when
      > we see it.' But God Himself does not say that we are as fallen at
      all
      > that. He constantly, in Scripture, appeals to our conscience: 'Why
      do
      > ye not of yourselves judge what is right?' -- 'What fault hath my
      > people found in me?' And so on. [...] Things are not good because
      God
      > commands them; God commands certain things because he sees them to
      be
      > good. (In other words, the Divine Will is the obedient servant to
      the
      > Divine Reason.) The opposite view (Ockham's, Paley's) leads to an
      > absurdity. If 'good' means 'what God wills' then to say 'God is
      good'
      > can mean only 'God wills what he wills.' Which is equally true of
      you
      > or me or Judas or Satan."
      >
      > "Divine Reason" seems like a good thing. There must be lots of it
      > sprinkled throughout Creation. Scientists have started looking into
      > it, and there are some head-scratchers, but apparently it makes a
      lot
      > of sense so far.
      >
      >

      Tin: Doesn't the Bible also warn against taking itself literally ?
      Maybe Q decided to take that part as allegory! In any case, it does
      make the supersition of biblical literalism all the more ironic.
      Of course that's aside from the falsification provided by modern
      science.
    • teleocat
      ... Time, ... - ... THE ... directly ... have ... for ... WORLD, ... drugs ... shared ... IT ... SEE ... VIOLATION ... to ... offering ... little ... to ... I
      Message 2 of 21 , May 1, 2003
        --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "tinroad66"
        <tinroad66@y...> wrote:
        > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "teleocat"
        > <cat.c@n...> wrote:
        > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1"
        > <qkvcs@w...>
        > > wrote:
        > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "teleocat"
        > > <cat.c@n...> wrote:
        > > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1"
        > > <qkvcs@w...>
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, piasan@a...
        > > wrote:
        > > > > > > In a message dated 4/29/03 5:26:25 AM Central Daylight
        Time,
        > > > > qkvcs@w...
        > > > > > > writes:
        > > > > > >
        > > <snip>
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > ---------------------------------------------
        > > > > > GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE AS ADULTS -NOT INFANTS.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > GOD CREATED THE STARS "...TO GIVE LIGHT UPON THE EARTH..."
        -
        > > > > GENESIS 1 :14
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ---------------------------------------------
        > > > > > IN THE SAME WAY GOD DIDNT CREATE ADAM AS AN INFANT BUT
        > A "MAN" -
        > > > > GENESIS 1:27
        > > > > > GOD CREATED THE STARS "MATURE" WITH THIER LIGHT ALREADY ON
        THE
        > > EARTH
        > > > > AS THAT WAS THIER PURPOSE --" TO GIVE LIGHT UPON THE EARTH"
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > You seem blissfully sure of these things. Can other people
        > > achieve
        > > > > this kind of state if they try, or does it have to be
        directly
        > > > > implanted by God?
        > > >
        > > > "FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD"
        > > >
        > > > If it comes directly from God, then you're one of
        > > > > the chosen ones. Congratulations, you get a free pass to
        > heaven.
        > > Bon
        > > > > voyage.
        > > >
        > > > IT'S NOT EXACTLY FREE -- IT COST THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIS
        > SINLESS
        > > BLOOD, THAT HE SHED ON THE CROSS AS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR
        > > SINS.--ROMANS 3:25
        > > >
        > > > HIS SACRIFICE "SATISFIED" THE LORD;BY JESUS CHRIST'S SHED BLOOD
        > THE
        > > PENALTY FOR OUR SINSHAS BEEN PAYED 2000 YEARS AGO - IN FULL!!!--
        > > ISAIAH 53:10-11--HEBREWS 1:3.
        > > >
        > > > > However, if it comes through faith, then the evolutionists
        have
        > > > > strangely chosen not to give their faith to Him. Apparently
        for
        > > no
        > > > > good reason.
        > > >
        > > > "AND THIS IS THE CONDEMNATION , THAT LIGHT IS COME INTO THE
        WORLD,
        > > AND MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, BECAUSE THIER DEEDS WERE
        > > EVIL"
        > > >
        > > > ---JOHN 3:19
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > It must be pure hate. I don't know why they would pick
        > > > > your god in particular to hate, but either way, there's no
        drugs
        > > that
        > > > > can cure pure hate. Again, lucky you.
        > > > >
        > > > > If it comes from clear evidence, then either you haven't
        shared
        > it
        > > > > with everyone else yet, or the evolutionists are hopelessly
        > > retarded.
        > > > >
        > > > NOBODY ON HERE IS THAT DUMB NOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT EVOLTION IS A
        > > LIE-- THEY ARE "WILLINGLY IGNORANT"-2 PETER 3:5-
        > > > BECASE ACKNOWLEDGING THIER CREATOR WOULD OBVIOUSLY BRING WITH
        IT
        > THE
        > > REQUIREMENT OF SUBMISSION TO HIS WILL. THE RELUCTANCE TO GIVE UP
        > > LIVING IN THE FLESH KEEPS MEN FROM ACKNOWLEDGING HIM.
        > > > READ JOHN 3.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Once again, you're one of the chosen ones. It's not nice to
        > gloat.
        > > > > Actually, it's kind of mean.
        > > >
        > > > YOU PEOPLE ARE SO THICKHEADED IT'S ALL I CAN DO TO GET YOU TO
        SEE
        > > THE UTTER STUPIDITY OF " THE BIG BANG, ABIOGENESIS,AND THE
        VIOLATION
        > > OF KNOWN SCIENTIFIC FACTS THAT EVOLUTION CANNOT COEXIST WITH,
        > LIKE --
        > > THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS AND ALL THAT IS OBSERVED ABOUT GENETICS
        > > ETC,......
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > This "God" guy seems like a divisive
        > > > > fellow. The poor evolutionists are stuck following a god that
        > > unites
        > > > > by attraction, not by edict.
        > > >
        > > > HE ONLY SEEMS DIVISIVE TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE UNAWARE THAT YOU
        > HAVE
        > > BEEN DECIEVED BY SATAN. -- MATTHEW 10:34
        > > >
        > >
        > > I try to be a good Christian, but some of it doesn't make sense
        to
        > me.
        > > I've started to pick and choose a little. Do you kill the
        offering
        > > on the *north* side of the altar as Leviticus requires? I don't.

        > But
        > > I make sure I remember to "sprinkle his blood round about upon the
        > > altar." The neighbors have stopped calling the police after the
        > first
        > > few times.
        > >
        > > My neighbor mows his lawn on the seventh day and Exodus says that
        > > "whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death." Seems a
        little
        > > harsh, but I figured I'd do my part and try to get people from my
        > > church to come over for the stoning. Nobody showed up! They seem
        to
        > > pick and choose too. I wasn't sure if that was allowed, but then
        I
        > > saw what C.S. Lewis wrote about it.
        > >
        > > "[Some will say] 'ah, but we are fallen and don't recognize good
        > when
        > > we see it.' But God Himself does not say that we are as fallen at
        > all
        > > that. He constantly, in Scripture, appeals to our conscience:
        'Why
        > do
        > > ye not of yourselves judge what is right?' -- 'What fault hath my
        > > people found in me?' And so on. [...] Things are not good because
        > God
        > > commands them; God commands certain things because he sees them
        to
        > be
        > > good. (In other words, the Divine Will is the obedient servant to
        > the
        > > Divine Reason.) The opposite view (Ockham's, Paley's) leads to an
        > > absurdity. If 'good' means 'what God wills' then to say 'God is
        > good'
        > > can mean only 'God wills what he wills.' Which is equally true of
        > you
        > > or me or Judas or Satan."
        > >
        > > "Divine Reason" seems like a good thing. There must be lots of it
        > > sprinkled throughout Creation. Scientists have started looking
        into
        > > it, and there are some head-scratchers, but apparently it makes a
        > lot
        > > of sense so far.
        > >
        > >
        >
        > Tin: Doesn't the Bible also warn against taking itself literally ?
        > Maybe Q decided to take that part as allegory! In any case, it does
        > make the supersition of biblical literalism all the more ironic.

        Cat: I think the passage is Rom. 7.6

        "But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we
        were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and
        not in the oldness of the letter."

        I should mention that I'm no Bible quote dueler. I've read most of
        the Bible over the years, but for quotes I just use the Bible Gateway
        search facility.


        > Of course that's aside from the falsification provided by modern
        > science.

        That requires some common ground. Scientists are willing to put the
        rules of the game above their own judgement because their background
        indicates that it can be beneficial to do so. Thinking skills which
        seem obvious and appear to work well in real life are often a
        detriment in understanding scientific claims. And some of those
        claims appear even more fantastic than biblical claims. Despite the
        old English, the Bible is written in pretty plain language and appeals
        to the common sense. No big words or mystical symbols. Science has
        probably gained its level of credibility from its technological
        results (electricity, cars), not from widespread adoption of its
        methods. Life just isn't about science. It's about family, health,
        relationships, food and house and doing dishes, etc. It's tough to
        let all that be invaded by things that are justified through some
        logical concepts like falsification and Occam's razor. Logic doesn't
        make value judgements for us, so what we find credible is based on
        premises from past visceral experience (simplistic version of the
        phenomenological argument). I was trying to find common ground, but
        admitedly, it's a funny feeling trying to get into Q's head.
      • narasimham brahmandam
        ... tinroad66 ... teleocat ... qkvcs1 ... teleocat ... creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, qkvcs1 ... creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com,
        Message 3 of 21 , May 1, 2003
          --- teleocat <cat.c@...> wrote:
          ---------------------------------
          --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com,
          "tinroad66"
          <tinroad66@y...> wrote:
          > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com,
          "teleocat"
          > <cat.c@n...> wrote:
          > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com,
          "qkvcs1"
          > <qkvcs@w...>
          > > wrote:
          > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com,
          "teleocat"
          > > <cat.c@n...> wrote:
          > > > > --- In
          creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1"
          > > <qkvcs@w...>
          > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > --- In
          creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, piasan@a...
          > > wrote:
          > > > > > > In a message dated 4/29/03 5:26:25 AM
          Central Daylight
          Time,
          > > > > qkvcs@w...
          > > > > > > writes:
          > > > > > >
          > > <snip>
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          ---------------------------------------------
          > > > > > GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE AS ADULTS -NOT
          INFANTS.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > GOD CREATED THE STARS "...TO GIVE LIGHT UPON
          THE EARTH..."
          -
          > > > > GENESIS 1 :14
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          ---------------------------------------------
          > > > > > IN THE SAME WAY GOD DIDNT CREATE ADAM AS AN
          INFANT BUT
          > A "MAN" -
          > > > > GENESIS 1:27
          > > > > > GOD CREATED THE STARS "MATURE" WITH THIER
          LIGHT ALREADY ON
          THE
          > > EARTH
          > > > > AS THAT WAS THIER PURPOSE --" TO GIVE LIGHT
          UPON THE EARTH"
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > You seem blissfully sure of these things. Can
          other people
          > > achieve
          > > > > this kind of state if they try, or does it
          have to be
          directly
          > > > > implanted by God?
          > > >
          > > > "FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD
          OF GOD"
          > > >
          > > > If it comes directly from God, then you're one
          of
          > > > > the chosen ones. Congratulations, you get a
          free pass to
          > heaven.
          > > Bon
          > > > > voyage.
          > > >
          > > > IT'S NOT EXACTLY FREE -- IT COST THE LORD JESUS
          CHRIST HIS
          > SINLESS
          > > BLOOD, THAT HE SHED ON THE CROSS AS THE
          PROPITIATION FOR OUR
          > > SINS.--ROMANS 3:25
          > > >
          > > > HIS SACRIFICE "SATISFIED" THE LORD;BY JESUS
          CHRIST'S SHED BLOOD
          > THE
          > > PENALTY FOR OUR SINSHAS BEEN PAYED 2000 YEARS AGO
          - IN FULL!!!--
          > > ISAIAH 53:10-11--HEBREWS 1:3.
          > > >
          > > > > However, if it comes through faith, then the
          evolutionists
          have
          > > > > strangely chosen not to give their faith to
          Him. Apparently
          for
          > > no
          > > > > good reason.
          > > >
          > > > "AND THIS IS THE CONDEMNATION , THAT LIGHT IS
          COME INTO THE
          WORLD,
          > > AND MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, BECAUSE
          THIER DEEDS WERE
          > > EVIL"
          > > >
          > > > ---JOHN 3:19
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > It must be pure hate. I don't know why they
          would pick
          > > > > your god in particular to hate, but either
          way, there's no
          drugs
          > > that
          > > > > can cure pure hate. Again, lucky you.
          > > > >
          > > > > If it comes from clear evidence, then either
          you haven't
          shared
          > it
          > > > > with everyone else yet, or the evolutionists
          are hopelessly
          > > retarded.
          > > > >
          > > > NOBODY ON HERE IS THAT DUMB NOT TO UNDERSTAND
          THAT EVOLTION IS A
          > > LIE-- THEY ARE "WILLINGLY IGNORANT"-2 PETER 3:5-
          > > > BECASE ACKNOWLEDGING THIER CREATOR WOULD
          OBVIOUSLY BRING WITH
          IT
          > THE
          > > REQUIREMENT OF SUBMISSION TO HIS WILL. THE
          RELUCTANCE TO GIVE UP
          > > LIVING IN THE FLESH KEEPS MEN FROM ACKNOWLEDGING
          HIM.
          > > > READ JOHN 3.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Once again, you're one of the chosen ones. It's
          not nice to
          > gloat.
          > > > > Actually, it's kind of mean.
          > > >
          > > > YOU PEOPLE ARE SO THICKHEADED IT'S ALL I CAN DO
          TO GET YOU TO
          SEE
          > > THE UTTER STUPIDITY OF " THE BIG BANG,
          ABIOGENESIS,AND THE
          VIOLATION
          > > OF KNOWN SCIENTIFIC FACTS THAT EVOLUTION CANNOT
          COEXIST WITH,
          > LIKE --
          > > THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS AND ALL THAT IS
          OBSERVED ABOUT GENETICS
          > > ETC,......
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > This "God" guy seems like a divisive
          > > > > fellow. The poor evolutionists are stuck
          following a god that
          > > unites
          > > > > by attraction, not by edict.
          > > >
          > > > HE ONLY SEEMS DIVISIVE TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE
          UNAWARE THAT YOU
          > HAVE
          > > BEEN DECIEVED BY SATAN. -- MATTHEW 10:34
          > > >
          > >
          > > I try to be a good Christian, but some of it
          doesn't make sense
          to
          > me.
          > > I've started to pick and choose a little. Do you
          kill the
          offering
          > > on the *north* side of the altar as Leviticus
          requires? I don't.

          > But
          > > I make sure I remember to "sprinkle his blood
          round about upon the
          > > altar." The neighbors have stopped calling the
          police after the
          > first
          > > few times.
          > >
          > > My neighbor mows his lawn on the seventh day and
          Exodus says that
          > > "whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to
          death." Seems a
          little
          > > harsh, but I figured I'd do my part and try to get
          people from my
          > > church to come over for the stoning. Nobody showed
          up! They seem
          to
          > > pick and choose too. I wasn't sure if that was
          allowed, but then
          I
          > > saw what C.S. Lewis wrote about it.
          > >
          > > "[Some will say] 'ah, but we are fallen and don't
          recognize good
          > when
          > > we see it.' But God Himself does not say that we
          are as fallen at
          > all
          > > that. He constantly, in Scripture, appeals to our
          conscience:
          'Why
          > do
          > > ye not of yourselves judge what is right?' --
          'What fault hath my
          > > people found in me?' And so on. [...] Things are
          not good because
          > God
          > > commands them; God commands certain things because
          he sees them
          to
          > be
          > > good. (In other words, the Divine Will is the
          obedient servant to
          > the
          > > Divine Reason.) The opposite view (Ockham's,
          Paley's) leads to an
          > > absurdity. If 'good' means 'what God wills' then
          to say 'God is
          > good'
          > > can mean only 'God wills what he wills.' Which is
          equally true of
          > you
          > > or me or Judas or Satan."
          > >
          > > "Divine Reason" seems like a good thing. There
          must be lots of it
          > > sprinkled throughout Creation. Scientists have
          started looking
          into
          > > it, and there are some head-scratchers, but
          apparently it makes a
          > lot
          > > of sense so far.
          > >
          > >
          >
          > Tin: Doesn't the Bible also warn against taking
          itself literally ?
          > Maybe Q decided to take that part as allegory! In
          any case, it does
          > make the supersition of biblical literalism all the
          more ironic.

          Cat: I think the passage is Rom. 7.6

          "But now we have been delivered from the law, having
          died to what we
          were held by, so that we should serve in the newness
          of the Spirit and
          not in the oldness of the letter."

          I should mention that I'm no Bible quote dueler. I've
          read most of
          the Bible over the years, but for quotes I just use
          the Bible Gateway
          search facility.


          > Of course that's aside from the falsification
          provided by modern
          > science.

          That requires some common ground. Scientists are
          willing to put the
          rules of the game above their own judgement because
          their background
          indicates that it can be beneficial to do so.
          Thinking skills which
          seem obvious and appear to work well in real life are
          often a
          detriment in understanding scientific claims. And
          some of those
          claims appear even more fantastic than biblical
          claims. Despite the
          old English, the Bible is written in pretty plain
          language and appeals
          to the common sense. No big words or mystical
          symbols. Science has
          probably gained its level of credibility from its
          technological
          results (electricity, cars), not from widespread
          adoption of its
          methods. Life just isn't about science. It's about
          family, health,
          relationships, food and house and doing dishes, etc.
          It's tough to
          let all that be invaded by things that are justified
          through some
          logical concepts like falsification and Occam's razor.
          Logic doesn't
          make value judgements for us, so what we find credible
          is based on
          premises from past visceral experience (simplistic
          version of the
          phenomenological argument). I was trying to find
          common ground, but
          admitedly, it's a funny feeling trying to get into Q's
          head.


          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          creationevolutiondebate-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          Terms of Service.

          ________________________________________________________________________
          Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV.
          visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com
        • tinroad66
          ... literally ? ... does ... and ... Gateway ... Tin: I believe that there is another one from Corinthians. I recall it because somebody showed it to Laurie
          Message 4 of 21 , May 1, 2003
            >>>>>>>>>>>>long ago ignored preached snipola>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


            > >
            > > Tin: Doesn't the Bible also warn against taking itself
            literally ?
            > > Maybe Q decided to take that part as allegory! In any case, it
            does
            > > make the supersition of biblical literalism all the more ironic.
            >
            > Cat: I think the passage is Rom. 7.6
            >
            > "But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we
            > were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit
            and
            > not in the oldness of the letter."
            >
            > I should mention that I'm no Bible quote dueler. I've read most of
            > the Bible over the years, but for quotes I just use the Bible
            Gateway
            > search facility.


            Tin: I believe that there is another one from Corinthians. I recall
            it because somebody showed it to Laurie Appleton and Appleton had the
            nerve to complain that it was it taken out of context. Can you
            imagine ?

            Even literalists like Q who swear that every literal word of the
            bible is true have no choice but to disregard some of the literal
            word. Then again logic and consistency in not a creationist
            strength.

            For more irony consider the fact they have no problem seeing the
            lunacy of Islamic fundamentalism at they same time they are puzzled
            by people seeing lunacy in their fundamentalism. So much for self
            reflective skills.


            >
            >
            > > Of course that's aside from the falsification provided by modern
            > > science.
            >
            > That requires some common ground. Scientists are willing to put the
            > rules of the game above their own judgement because their background
            > indicates that it can be beneficial to do so. Thinking skills which
            > seem obvious and appear to work well in real life are often a
            > detriment in understanding scientific claims. And some of those
            > claims appear even more fantastic than biblical claims. Despite the
            > old English, the Bible is written in pretty plain language and
            appeals
            > to the common sense. No big words or mystical symbols. Science has
            > probably gained its level of credibility from its technological
            > results (electricity, cars), not from widespread adoption of its
            > methods. Life just isn't about science. It's about family, health,
            > relationships, food and house and doing dishes, etc. It's tough to
            > let all that be invaded by things that are justified through some
            > logical concepts like falsification and Occam's razor. Logic doesn't
            > make value judgements for us, so what we find credible is based on
            > premises from past visceral experience (simplistic version of the
            > phenomenological argument). I was trying to find common ground, but
            > admitedly, it's a funny feeling trying to get into Q's head.
          • qkvcs1
            ... WE RE UNDER A NEW COVENANT NOW!!! ... EZEKIEL 36:25-29 JERIMIAH 31:31-34 YOU NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN -- SEE JOHN 3 WE ARE UNDER A NEW COVENANT NOW [
            Message 5 of 21 , May 2, 2003
              --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "teleocat" <cat.c@n...> wrote:
              > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1" <qkvcs@w...>
              > wrote:
              > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "teleocat"
              > <cat.c@n...> wrote:
              > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1"
              > <qkvcs@w...>
              > > > wrote:
              > > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, piasan@a...
              > wrote:
              > > > > > In a message dated 4/29/03 5:26:25 AM Central Daylight Time,
              > > > qkvcs@w...
              > > > > > writes:
              > > > > >
              > <snip>
              > > > > >
              > > > > ---------------------------------------------
              > > > > GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE AS ADULTS -NOT INFANTS.
              > > > >
              > > > > GOD CREATED THE STARS "...TO GIVE LIGHT UPON THE EARTH..." -
              > > > GENESIS 1 :14
              > > > >
              > > > > ---------------------------------------------
              > > > > IN THE SAME WAY GOD DIDNT CREATE ADAM AS AN INFANT BUT A "MAN" -
              > > > GENESIS 1:27
              > > > > GOD CREATED THE STARS "MATURE" WITH THIER LIGHT ALREADY ON THE
              > EARTH
              > > > AS THAT WAS THIER PURPOSE --" TO GIVE LIGHT UPON THE EARTH"
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > You seem blissfully sure of these things. Can other people
              > achieve
              > > > this kind of state if they try, or does it have to be directly
              > > > implanted by God?
              > >
              > > "FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD"
              > >
              > > If it comes directly from God, then you're one of
              > > > the chosen ones. Congratulations, you get a free pass to heaven.
              > Bon
              > > > voyage.
              > >
              > > IT'S NOT EXACTLY FREE -- IT COST THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIS SINLESS
              > BLOOD, THAT HE SHED ON THE CROSS AS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR
              > SINS.--ROMANS 3:25
              > >
              > > HIS SACRIFICE "SATISFIED" THE LORD;BY JESUS CHRIST'S SHED BLOOD THE
              > PENALTY FOR OUR SINSHAS BEEN PAYED 2000 YEARS AGO - IN FULL!!!--
              > ISAIAH 53:10-11--HEBREWS 1:3.
              > >
              > > > However, if it comes through faith, then the evolutionists have
              > > > strangely chosen not to give their faith to Him. Apparently for
              > no
              > > > good reason.
              > >
              > > "AND THIS IS THE CONDEMNATION , THAT LIGHT IS COME INTO THE WORLD,
              > AND MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, BECAUSE THIER DEEDS WERE
              > EVIL"
              > >
              > > ---JOHN 3:19
              > >
              > >
              > > It must be pure hate. I don't know why they would pick
              > > > your god in particular to hate, but either way, there's no drugs
              > that
              > > > can cure pure hate. Again, lucky you.
              > > >
              > > > If it comes from clear evidence, then either you haven't shared it
              > > > with everyone else yet, or the evolutionists are hopelessly
              > retarded.
              > > >
              > > NOBODY ON HERE IS THAT DUMB NOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT EVOLTION IS A
              > LIE-- THEY ARE "WILLINGLY IGNORANT"-2 PETER 3:5-
              > > BECASE ACKNOWLEDGING THIER CREATOR WOULD OBVIOUSLY BRING WITH IT THE
              > REQUIREMENT OF SUBMISSION TO HIS WILL. THE RELUCTANCE TO GIVE UP
              > LIVING IN THE FLESH KEEPS MEN FROM ACKNOWLEDGING HIM.
              > > READ JOHN 3.
              > >
              > >
              > > Once again, you're one of the chosen ones. It's not nice to gloat.
              > > > Actually, it's kind of mean.
              > >
              > > YOU PEOPLE ARE SO THICKHEADED IT'S ALL I CAN DO TO GET YOU TO SEE
              > THE UTTER STUPIDITY OF " THE BIG BANG, ABIOGENESIS,AND THE VIOLATION
              > OF KNOWN SCIENTIFIC FACTS THAT EVOLUTION CANNOT COEXIST WITH, LIKE --
              > THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS AND ALL THAT IS OBSERVED ABOUT GENETICS
              > ETC,......
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > This "God" guy seems like a divisive
              > > > fellow. The poor evolutionists are stuck following a god that
              > unites
              > > > by attraction, not by edict.
              > >
              > > HE ONLY SEEMS DIVISIVE TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE UNAWARE THAT YOU HAVE
              > BEEN DECIEVED BY SATAN. -- MATTHEW 10:34
              > >
              >
              > I try to be a good Christian, but some of it doesn't make sense to me.
              > I've started to pick and choose a little. Do you kill the offering
              > on the *north* side of the altar as Leviticus requires? I don't. But
              > I make sure I remember to "sprinkle his blood round about upon the
              > altar." The neighbors have stopped calling the police after the first
              > few times.
              >
              > My neighbor mows his lawn on the seventh day and Exodus says that
              > "whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death." Seems a little
              > harsh, but I figured I'd do my part and try to get people from my
              > church to come over for the stoning. Nobody showed up! They seem to
              > pick and choose too. I wasn't sure if that was allowed, but then I
              > saw what C.S. Lewis wrote about it.
              >
              > "[Some will say] 'ah, but we are fallen and don't recognize good when
              > we see it.' But God Himself does not say that we are as fallen at all
              > that. He constantly, in Scripture, appeals to our conscience: 'Why do
              > ye not of yourselves judge what is right?' -- 'What fault hath my
              > people found in me?' And so on. [...] Things are not good because God
              > commands them; God commands certain things because he sees them to be
              > good. (In other words, the Divine Will is the obedient servant to the
              > Divine Reason.) The opposite view (Ockham's, Paley's) leads to an
              > absurdity. If 'good' means 'what God wills' then to say 'God is good'
              > can mean only 'God wills what he wills.' Which is equally true of you
              > or me or Judas or Satan."
              >
              > "Divine Reason" seems like a good thing. There must be lots of it
              > sprinkled throughout Creation. Scientists have started looking into
              > it, and there are some head-scratchers, but apparently it makes a lot
              > of sense so far.
              >
              WE'RE UNDER A NEW COVENANT NOW!!!
              > SEE:
              EZEKIEL 36:25-29
              JERIMIAH 31:31-34

              YOU NEED TO BE " BORN AGAIN" -- SEE JOHN 3
              WE ARE UNDER A "NEW COVENANT" NOW [ JERIMIAH 31:31]

              ALSO SEE ISAIAH 53 AND ALL OF 1 JOHN.

              I HOPE IT MAKES SENSE! --
              > IF IT DOESN'T,PRAY ACCORDING TO JAMES 1:5 !
              >

              > >
              > > GOD BLESS YOU
              --QKVCS
            • tinroad66
              ... directly ... Tin: So why are you focusing on a book written by people ? Why are you ignoring reality which shows that you are wrong. ... heaven. ...
              Message 6 of 21 , May 2, 2003
                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bible babble snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > You seem blissfully sure of these things. Can other people
                > > achieve
                > > > > this kind of state if they try, or does it have to be
                directly
                > > > > implanted by God?
                > > >
                > > > "FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD"

                Tin: So why are you focusing on a book written by people ? Why are
                you ignoring reality which shows that you are wrong.



                > > >
                > > > If it comes directly from God, then you're one of
                > > > > the chosen ones. Congratulations, you get a free pass to
                heaven.
                > > Bon
                > > > > voyage.
                > > >
                > > > IT'S NOT EXACTLY FREE -- IT COST THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIS
                SINLESS

                Tin: Based on mindless acceptance of a book written by people.



                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bable snipola>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


                > > >
                > > > > However, if it comes through faith, then the evolutionists
                have
                > > > > strangely chosen not to give their faith to Him. Apparently
                for
                > > no
                > > > > good reason.
                > > >
                > > > It must be pure hate. I don't know why they would pick
                > > > > your god in particular to hate, but either way, there's no
                drugs
                > > that
                > > > > can cure pure hate. Again, lucky you.
                > > > >
                > > > > If it comes from clear evidence, then either you haven't
                shared it
                > > > > with everyone else yet, or the evolutionists are hopelessly
                > > retarded.
                > > > >
                > > > NOBODY ON HERE IS THAT DUMB


                Tin: Well there might be one person.






                NOT TO UNDERSTAND
                Tin: Speaking of which, have you done any reading on the issues that
                we are discussing. Or are you still as confused as you were a month
                ago. Do you now understand why you were wrong about Mitochondrial
                Eve ?




                THE UTTER STUPIDITY OF ----

                Tin: ----taking a book literally written when the book specifically
                advises against taking it literally. Not to mention the scientific
                facts which shows the literal interpretation to be WRONG.




                " THE BIG BANG, ABIOGENESIS,AND THE VIOLATION
                > > OF KNOWN SCIENTIFIC FACTS THAT EVOLUTION CANNOT COEXIST WITH,
                LIKE --
                > > THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS AND ALL THAT IS OBSERVED ABOUT GENETICS
                > > ETC,......

                Tin: Behind Q's cap locks of course is............nothing. This is
                as far as Q has thought things out. No matter much we beg him to put
                together even the most simple minded of arguments -- he ignores it
                and SHOUTS his objections to modern science based soled on his
                personal faith in his personal religious myth. Which might be just
                as well since when he tries to talk science he inevitably gets it
                incompetently and wildy WRONG.


                For Q a few bible passages is all that's needed for guidance thru
                science. Facts are of no interest.





                >>>>>>>>>>>>> preaching = highlight & delete<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,



                QUESTIONS FOR Q

                HOW COULD WE HAVE 100'S OF ALLELES WHEN NOAH'S MYTHICAL GROUP HAD A
                MAXIMUM OF 16 WITHOUT MUTATIONS ADDING GENETIC INFORMATION ?



                Why are humans never found ***BELOW*** the K-T boundary and Dinosaurs
                never found ***ABOVE*** it ?


                How did the mythical flood sort moles **ABOVE** flying Dinosaurs ?




                Save your worthless, mindless preaching for the gullibly
                supersititious.
              • teleocat
                ... ... Time, ... - ... MAN - ... THE ... directly ... heaven. ... SINLESS ... THE ... have ... for ... WORLD, ... drugs ... shared it ... IT
                Message 7 of 21 , May 2, 2003
                  --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1" <qkvcs@w...>
                  wrote:
                  > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "teleocat"
                  <cat.c@n...> wrote:
                  > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1"
                  <qkvcs@w...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "teleocat"
                  > > <cat.c@n...> wrote:
                  > > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1"
                  > > <qkvcs@w...>
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, piasan@a...
                  > > wrote:
                  > > > > > > In a message dated 4/29/03 5:26:25 AM Central Daylight
                  Time,
                  > > > > qkvcs@w...
                  > > > > > > writes:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > <snip>
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > ---------------------------------------------
                  > > > > > GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE AS ADULTS -NOT INFANTS.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > GOD CREATED THE STARS "...TO GIVE LIGHT UPON THE EARTH..."
                  -
                  > > > > GENESIS 1 :14
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > ---------------------------------------------
                  > > > > > IN THE SAME WAY GOD DIDNT CREATE ADAM AS AN INFANT BUT A
                  "MAN" -
                  > > > > GENESIS 1:27
                  > > > > > GOD CREATED THE STARS "MATURE" WITH THIER LIGHT ALREADY ON
                  THE
                  > > EARTH
                  > > > > AS THAT WAS THIER PURPOSE --" TO GIVE LIGHT UPON THE EARTH"
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > You seem blissfully sure of these things. Can other people
                  > > achieve
                  > > > > this kind of state if they try, or does it have to be
                  directly
                  > > > > implanted by God?
                  > > >
                  > > > "FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD"
                  > > >
                  > > > If it comes directly from God, then you're one of
                  > > > > the chosen ones. Congratulations, you get a free pass to
                  heaven.
                  > > Bon
                  > > > > voyage.
                  > > >
                  > > > IT'S NOT EXACTLY FREE -- IT COST THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIS
                  SINLESS
                  > > BLOOD, THAT HE SHED ON THE CROSS AS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR
                  > > SINS.--ROMANS 3:25
                  > > >
                  > > > HIS SACRIFICE "SATISFIED" THE LORD;BY JESUS CHRIST'S SHED BLOOD
                  THE
                  > > PENALTY FOR OUR SINSHAS BEEN PAYED 2000 YEARS AGO - IN FULL!!!--
                  > > ISAIAH 53:10-11--HEBREWS 1:3.
                  > > >
                  > > > > However, if it comes through faith, then the evolutionists
                  have
                  > > > > strangely chosen not to give their faith to Him. Apparently
                  for
                  > > no
                  > > > > good reason.
                  > > >
                  > > > "AND THIS IS THE CONDEMNATION , THAT LIGHT IS COME INTO THE
                  WORLD,
                  > > AND MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, BECAUSE THIER DEEDS WERE
                  > > EVIL"
                  > > >
                  > > > ---JOHN 3:19
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > It must be pure hate. I don't know why they would pick
                  > > > > your god in particular to hate, but either way, there's no
                  drugs
                  > > that
                  > > > > can cure pure hate. Again, lucky you.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > If it comes from clear evidence, then either you haven't
                  shared it
                  > > > > with everyone else yet, or the evolutionists are hopelessly
                  > > retarded.
                  > > > >
                  > > > NOBODY ON HERE IS THAT DUMB NOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT EVOLTION IS A
                  > > LIE-- THEY ARE "WILLINGLY IGNORANT"-2 PETER 3:5-
                  > > > BECASE ACKNOWLEDGING THIER CREATOR WOULD OBVIOUSLY BRING WITH
                  IT THE
                  > > REQUIREMENT OF SUBMISSION TO HIS WILL. THE RELUCTANCE TO GIVE UP
                  > > LIVING IN THE FLESH KEEPS MEN FROM ACKNOWLEDGING HIM.
                  > > > READ JOHN 3.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Once again, you're one of the chosen ones. It's not nice to
                  gloat.
                  > > > > Actually, it's kind of mean.
                  > > >
                  > > > YOU PEOPLE ARE SO THICKHEADED IT'S ALL I CAN DO TO GET YOU TO
                  SEE
                  > > THE UTTER STUPIDITY OF " THE BIG BANG, ABIOGENESIS,AND THE
                  VIOLATION
                  > > OF KNOWN SCIENTIFIC FACTS THAT EVOLUTION CANNOT COEXIST WITH,
                  LIKE --
                  > > THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS AND ALL THAT IS OBSERVED ABOUT GENETICS
                  > > ETC,......
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > This "God" guy seems like a divisive
                  > > > > fellow. The poor evolutionists are stuck following a god that
                  > > unites
                  > > > > by attraction, not by edict.
                  > > >
                  > > > HE ONLY SEEMS DIVISIVE TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE UNAWARE THAT YOU
                  HAVE
                  > > BEEN DECIEVED BY SATAN. -- MATTHEW 10:34
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > I try to be a good Christian, but some of it doesn't make sense
                  to me.
                  > > I've started to pick and choose a little. Do you kill the
                  offering
                  > > on the *north* side of the altar as Leviticus requires? I don't.
                  But
                  > > I make sure I remember to "sprinkle his blood round about upon the
                  > > altar." The neighbors have stopped calling the police after the
                  first
                  > > few times.
                  > >
                  > > My neighbor mows his lawn on the seventh day and Exodus says that
                  > > "whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death." Seems a
                  little
                  > > harsh, but I figured I'd do my part and try to get people from my
                  > > church to come over for the stoning. Nobody showed up! They seem
                  to
                  > > pick and choose too. I wasn't sure if that was allowed, but then
                  I
                  > > saw what C.S. Lewis wrote about it.
                  > >
                  > > "[Some will say] 'ah, but we are fallen and don't recognize good
                  when
                  > > we see it.' But God Himself does not say that we are as fallen at
                  all
                  > > that. He constantly, in Scripture, appeals to our conscience:
                  'Why do
                  > > ye not of yourselves judge what is right?' -- 'What fault hath my
                  > > people found in me?' And so on. [...] Things are not good because
                  God
                  > > commands them; God commands certain things because he sees them
                  to be
                  > > good. (In other words, the Divine Will is the obedient servant to
                  the
                  > > Divine Reason.) The opposite view (Ockham's, Paley's) leads to an
                  > > absurdity. If 'good' means 'what God wills' then to say 'God is
                  good'
                  > > can mean only 'God wills what he wills.' Which is equally true of
                  you
                  > > or me or Judas or Satan."
                  > >
                  > > "Divine Reason" seems like a good thing. There must be lots of it
                  > > sprinkled throughout Creation. Scientists have started looking
                  into
                  > > it, and there are some head-scratchers, but apparently it makes a
                  lot
                  > > of sense so far.
                  > >
                  > WE'RE UNDER A NEW COVENANT NOW!!!

                  Cat: So which parts of the Bible does this override? Do I still have
                  to stone my neighbor to death for mowing his lawn on the seventh day?

                  > > SEE:
                  > EZEKIEL 36:25-29
                  > JERIMIAH 31:31-34

                  Here are passages from your references:

                  "It will not be like the covenant
                  I made with their forefathers"

                  Does this mean I no longer need to read Exodus and Genesis literally?
                  Can I tell my neighbor that he can stop flashing the Colt 45 every
                  time he sees me?

                  "No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
                  or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD ,'
                  because they will all know me,
                  from the least of them to the greatest,"
                  declares the LORD."

                  Sounds like divine reason again. It's everywhere and in everything
                  and, sounds from that passage that we no longer need other men to tell
                  us what it is, but we can look at God's world ourselves.


                  > YOU NEED TO BE " BORN AGAIN" -- SEE JOHN 3

                  I have been. I've been dipped in water and sprinkled with it and
                  smeared with greasy stuff, and prodded and touched, and walked around
                  the church, and there are strangers who have pictures of me naked and
                  wet. I'm not sure how that's supposed to convince me to read the Bible
                  literally.

                  > WE ARE UNDER A "NEW COVENANT" NOW [ JERIMIAH 31:31]
                  >
                  > ALSO SEE ISAIAH 53 AND ALL OF 1 JOHN.
                  >
                  > I HOPE IT MAKES SENSE! --
                  > > IF IT DOESN'T,PRAY ACCORDING TO JAMES 1:5 !
                  > >
                  I've prayed for wisdom for many years. We no longer kill the lamb
                  (actually I never did, my father did it) but I buy it killed and
                  skinned. Old habits die hard, but the Bible actually appears more
                  meaningful now that I see it as divine inspiration rather than a rule
                  book. It helps me judge for myself without fear.

                  >
                  > > >
                  > > > GOD BLESS YOU
                  > --QKVCS
                • qkvcs1
                  ... YEA , I KNOW HOW HUMANISTS LOATHE RULE BOOKS YOU MAKE YOUR BED -- LIE IN IT. It helps me judge for myself without fear.
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 2, 2003
                    --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "teleocat" <cat.c@n...> wrote:
                    > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1" <qkvcs@w...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "teleocat"
                    > <cat.c@n...> wrote:
                    > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1"
                    > <qkvcs@w...>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "teleocat"
                    > > > <cat.c@n...> wrote:
                    > > > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1"
                    > > > <qkvcs@w...>
                    > > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, piasan@a...
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/29/03 5:26:25 AM Central Daylight
                    > Time,
                    > > > > > qkvcs@w...
                    > > > > > > > writes:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > <snip>
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------
                    > > > > > > GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE AS ADULTS -NOT INFANTS.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > GOD CREATED THE STARS "...TO GIVE LIGHT UPON THE EARTH..."
                    > -
                    > > > > > GENESIS 1 :14
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------
                    > > > > > > IN THE SAME WAY GOD DIDNT CREATE ADAM AS AN INFANT BUT A
                    > "MAN" -
                    > > > > > GENESIS 1:27
                    > > > > > > GOD CREATED THE STARS "MATURE" WITH THIER LIGHT ALREADY ON
                    > THE
                    > > > EARTH
                    > > > > > AS THAT WAS THIER PURPOSE --" TO GIVE LIGHT UPON THE EARTH"
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > You seem blissfully sure of these things. Can other people
                    > > > achieve
                    > > > > > this kind of state if they try, or does it have to be
                    > directly
                    > > > > > implanted by God?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD"
                    > > > >
                    > > > > If it comes directly from God, then you're one of
                    > > > > > the chosen ones. Congratulations, you get a free pass to
                    > heaven.
                    > > > Bon
                    > > > > > voyage.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > IT'S NOT EXACTLY FREE -- IT COST THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIS
                    > SINLESS
                    > > > BLOOD, THAT HE SHED ON THE CROSS AS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR
                    > > > SINS.--ROMANS 3:25
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HIS SACRIFICE "SATISFIED" THE LORD;BY JESUS CHRIST'S SHED BLOOD
                    > THE
                    > > > PENALTY FOR OUR SINSHAS BEEN PAYED 2000 YEARS AGO - IN FULL!!!--
                    > > > ISAIAH 53:10-11--HEBREWS 1:3.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > However, if it comes through faith, then the evolutionists
                    > have
                    > > > > > strangely chosen not to give their faith to Him. Apparently
                    > for
                    > > > no
                    > > > > > good reason.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "AND THIS IS THE CONDEMNATION , THAT LIGHT IS COME INTO THE
                    > WORLD,
                    > > > AND MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, BECAUSE THIER DEEDS WERE
                    > > > EVIL"
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ---JOHN 3:19
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It must be pure hate. I don't know why they would pick
                    > > > > > your god in particular to hate, but either way, there's no
                    > drugs
                    > > > that
                    > > > > > can cure pure hate. Again, lucky you.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > If it comes from clear evidence, then either you haven't
                    > shared it
                    > > > > > with everyone else yet, or the evolutionists are hopelessly
                    > > > retarded.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > NOBODY ON HERE IS THAT DUMB NOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT EVOLTION IS A
                    > > > LIE-- THEY ARE "WILLINGLY IGNORANT"-2 PETER 3:5-
                    > > > > BECASE ACKNOWLEDGING THIER CREATOR WOULD OBVIOUSLY BRING WITH
                    > IT THE
                    > > > REQUIREMENT OF SUBMISSION TO HIS WILL. THE RELUCTANCE TO GIVE UP
                    > > > LIVING IN THE FLESH KEEPS MEN FROM ACKNOWLEDGING HIM.
                    > > > > READ JOHN 3.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Once again, you're one of the chosen ones. It's not nice to
                    > gloat.
                    > > > > > Actually, it's kind of mean.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > YOU PEOPLE ARE SO THICKHEADED IT'S ALL I CAN DO TO GET YOU TO
                    > SEE
                    > > > THE UTTER STUPIDITY OF " THE BIG BANG, ABIOGENESIS,AND THE
                    > VIOLATION
                    > > > OF KNOWN SCIENTIFIC FACTS THAT EVOLUTION CANNOT COEXIST WITH,
                    > LIKE --
                    > > > THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS AND ALL THAT IS OBSERVED ABOUT GENETICS
                    > > > ETC,......
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This "God" guy seems like a divisive
                    > > > > > fellow. The poor evolutionists are stuck following a god that
                    > > > unites
                    > > > > > by attraction, not by edict.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > HE ONLY SEEMS DIVISIVE TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE UNAWARE THAT YOU
                    > HAVE
                    > > > BEEN DECIEVED BY SATAN. -- MATTHEW 10:34
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I try to be a good Christian, but some of it doesn't make sense
                    > to me.
                    > > > I've started to pick and choose a little. Do you kill the
                    > offering
                    > > > on the *north* side of the altar as Leviticus requires? I don't.
                    > But
                    > > > I make sure I remember to "sprinkle his blood round about upon the
                    > > > altar." The neighbors have stopped calling the police after the
                    > first
                    > > > few times.
                    > > >
                    > > > My neighbor mows his lawn on the seventh day and Exodus says that
                    > > > "whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death." Seems a
                    > little
                    > > > harsh, but I figured I'd do my part and try to get people from my
                    > > > church to come over for the stoning. Nobody showed up! They seem
                    > to
                    > > > pick and choose too. I wasn't sure if that was allowed, but then
                    > I
                    > > > saw what C.S. Lewis wrote about it.
                    > > >
                    > > > "[Some will say] 'ah, but we are fallen and don't recognize good
                    > when
                    > > > we see it.' But God Himself does not say that we are as fallen at
                    > all
                    > > > that. He constantly, in Scripture, appeals to our conscience:
                    > 'Why do
                    > > > ye not of yourselves judge what is right?' -- 'What fault hath my
                    > > > people found in me?' And so on. [...] Things are not good because
                    > God
                    > > > commands them; God commands certain things because he sees them
                    > to be
                    > > > good. (In other words, the Divine Will is the obedient servant to
                    > the
                    > > > Divine Reason.) The opposite view (Ockham's, Paley's) leads to an
                    > > > absurdity. If 'good' means 'what God wills' then to say 'God is
                    > good'
                    > > > can mean only 'God wills what he wills.' Which is equally true of
                    > you
                    > > > or me or Judas or Satan."
                    > > >
                    > > > "Divine Reason" seems like a good thing. There must be lots of it
                    > > > sprinkled throughout Creation. Scientists have started looking
                    > into
                    > > > it, and there are some head-scratchers, but apparently it makes a
                    > lot
                    > > > of sense so far.
                    > > >
                    > > WE'RE UNDER A NEW COVENANT NOW!!!
                    >
                    > Cat: So which parts of the Bible does this override? Do I still have
                    > to stone my neighbor to death for mowing his lawn on the seventh day?
                    >
                    > > > SEE:
                    > > EZEKIEL 36:25-29
                    > > JERIMIAH 31:31-34
                    >
                    > Here are passages from your references:
                    >
                    > "It will not be like the covenant
                    > I made with their forefathers"
                    >
                    > Does this mean I no longer need to read Exodus and Genesis literally?
                    > Can I tell my neighbor that he can stop flashing the Colt 45 every
                    > time he sees me?
                    >
                    > "No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
                    > or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD ,'
                    > because they will all know me,
                    > from the least of them to the greatest,"
                    > declares the LORD."
                    >
                    > Sounds like divine reason again. It's everywhere and in everything
                    > and, sounds from that passage that we no longer need other men to tell
                    > us what it is, but we can look at God's world ourselves.
                    >
                    >
                    > > YOU NEED TO BE " BORN AGAIN" -- SEE JOHN 3
                    >
                    > I have been. I've been dipped in water and sprinkled with it and
                    > smeared with greasy stuff, and prodded and touched, and walked around
                    > the church, and there are strangers who have pictures of me naked and
                    > wet. I'm not sure how that's supposed to convince me to read the Bible
                    > literally.
                    >
                    > > WE ARE UNDER A "NEW COVENANT" NOW [ JERIMIAH 31:31]
                    > >
                    > > ALSO SEE ISAIAH 53 AND ALL OF 1 JOHN.
                    > >
                    > > I HOPE IT MAKES SENSE! --
                    > > > IF IT DOESN'T,PRAY ACCORDING TO JAMES 1:5 !
                    > > >
                    > I've prayed for wisdom for many years. We no longer kill the lamb
                    > (actually I never did, my father did it) but I buy it killed and
                    > skinned. Old habits die hard, but the Bible actually appears more
                    > meaningful now that I see it as divine inspiration rather than a rule
                    > book.

                    YEA , I KNOW HOW HUMANISTS LOATHE " RULE BOOKS"

                    YOU MAKE YOUR BED -- LIE IN IT.

                    It helps me judge for myself without fear.
                    >




                    > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > GOD BLESS YOU
                    > > --QKVCS
                  • teleocat
                    ... ... rule ... If this is what your argument against evolution reduces to, we re back to lucky you . I guess you chose wisely (simply because you re
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 2, 2003
                      > > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1"
                      > > <qkvcs@w...>
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "teleocat"
                      > > > > <cat.c@n...> wrote:
                      > > > > > > --- In creationevolutiondebate@yahoogroups.com, "qkvcs1"
                      > > > > <qkvcs@w...>
                      > > > > > > wrote:

                      <snip>

                      > > > WE ARE UNDER A "NEW COVENANT" NOW [ JERIMIAH 31:31]
                      > > >
                      > > > ALSO SEE ISAIAH 53 AND ALL OF 1 JOHN.
                      > > >
                      > > > I HOPE IT MAKES SENSE! --
                      > > > > IF IT DOESN'T,PRAY ACCORDING TO JAMES 1:5 !
                      > > > >
                      > > I've prayed for wisdom for many years. We no longer kill the lamb
                      > > (actually I never did, my father did it) but I buy it killed and
                      > > skinned. Old habits die hard, but the Bible actually appears more
                      > > meaningful now that I see it as divine inspiration rather than a
                      rule
                      > > book.
                      >
                      > YEA , I KNOW HOW HUMANISTS LOATHE " RULE BOOKS"
                      If this is what your argument against evolution reduces to, we're back
                      to "lucky you". I guess you chose wisely (simply because you're so
                      sure of it). Hopefully you only preach it, but you don't follow it.
                      Stonings are not nice.

                      > YOU MAKE YOUR BED -- LIE IN IT.

                      A good God wouldn't punish someone who looks for His inspiration but
                      refrains from stoning people to death. God was speaking to people to
                      whom "stoning to death" meant something. It was how the community
                      protected its own harmony. If you insist on taking the words
                      literally you're not getting the same meaning God gave to those people
                      back then. That insistence is turning a good God into one who "wills
                      what he wills" simply because you are holding Him to a standard of a
                      primitive people. The Bible has succeeded in bringing us to a better
                      level where such crude things aren't part of how God would have to
                      talk with us to make us understand. You are precluding the possibility
                      that the Bible can have any such success because you are forcing it to
                      a frozen moment in time. It wasn't God's only time. It was the time
                      of those people. God had to speak in their terms because they
                      couldn't understand anything else. We can. Don't blame the Bible for
                      your decision.



                      > It helps me judge for myself without fear.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > GOD BLESS YOU
                      > > > --QKVCS
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.