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good, evil?Lucifer's punishment fit crime?

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  • Michael Drake
    Christopher Lynch wrote:Not true, it is apparent that you don t study the Bible well. God made the angels with free will to choose, and
    Message 1 of 71 , Oct 1, 2005
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      Christopher Lynch <njcunewbie@...> wrote:
      Not true, it is apparent that you don't study the Bible well. 
       
      God made the angels with free will to choose, and one of them (Lucifer) decided to rebel against God, so he was thrown down and became the Devil, who is the concocter of evil. 
       
      God gave humanity free will too, and the choice between rebellion and obedience, obviously, Adam and Eve chose rebellion, so here are us all fallen to sin in need of our Savior (Jesus Christ)
       
      I'm guessing you would now perfer it that God didn't give us free will and that we were no more than an automaton.

        Nettrecker: Why would any one create unnecessary evil, the way God has? God   says, " do on to others as you would have them do on to you". So lets see if God disagrees with someone more powerful then himself, based on what he would do, its okay for him to be thrown into Hell. It seems with God, itÂ’s my way or the highway, proving God doesn't really promote free choice. Because if he did you would not be punished for not agreeing with him. And this Lucifer thing, he does -in God's eyes - a bad thing. And what's his punishment? He receives a kingdom, and is second only to God in power.  Being in his position, he gets to do (punishment free) what most would like doing, and that some actually do, things that God considers sinful. More clarity that God does not promote free choice, more my way or the highway.



      Gabor Horvath <gabor.horvath@...> wrote:
      Thomas(partial)
      What does good and evil have to do with civility, ethics or community
      based rules?  You do realize that good/evil are subjective terms,
      with no objective basis.  Heck, your own Bible says your God created
      EVIL and is RESPONSIBLE for it.
       
      Gabor:
      He also accepted the responsibility and fixed the problem in His justice, perfectly.

      Isaiah
       45:7   I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].  
       
      2 Corinthians
      5:21   For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.  
       
      Analise that Thomas and you will understand it for yourself. The didvine plan is amazing. Amazingly perfect.
       
      Best regards: Gabor

       


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    • Christopher Lynch
      Michael Drake wrote: Christopher Lynch wrote: Are you saying that there should be someone more powerful than the
      Message 71 of 71 , Oct 4, 2005
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        Michael Drake <nettrecker@...> wrote:


        Christopher Lynch <njcunewbie@...> wrote:

        Are you saying that there should be someone more powerful than the Creator of the universe? What kind of foolishness is that?
         
        Nettrecker: No, that's not what I'm saying. The example I gave is an anology to the way God behaves toward those that refuse to follow his rules.
         
         The Creator is not created. Apparently, you do not understand that righteousness and unrighteouness do not mix.
         
        Nettrecker: Well since you have nothing tangable to prove the creator is not created, we'll just let that go. You say, " righteousness and unrighteouness do not mix". I beg to differ, all of us have what "we" consider our good parts and our bads parts. Do you think you're aal good?
         
        Satan only enacted his tempations and evil to try and exact revenge on God, though he knows that it is a futile effort.
         
        Simple.  Satan is outraged that God sent him to a place of eternal torment and that he was thrown from glory.  He is trying to exact revenge on God by decieving as many people as possible.  He started with Adam and Eve; today he decieves us by planting ideas into our heats which tell us "there is no god" or having us beleive in false dieties. He knows he'll loose, but he wants to cause as much damage as possible.
         
        Nettrecker: Well, God must have done something to piss Satan off. Why would Satan challange God knowing that the effort is futile?
         
          Are you saying that if Lucifer was a god he wouldnt' try and quell a rebellion?
         
        Nettrecker: I didn't say that.
         
          Satan's punishment is eternam pain, suffering, and separation from God. The same fate awats the souls of humans who do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior. 
         
        Nettrecker: Wait a minute, I thought Jesus died for us all?
         
        The Lord Jesus is the beloved and only begotten Son of God. He is the Creator of all things. He came to this world for the following purposes:

         

        1. To manifest the love, the righteousness and the perfect character of God that we may know the heavenly Father.
        2. He went from place to place doing good, helping, healing and teaching, leading people back to the bosom of God.
        3. But the most important thing that Jesus did was bearing for us God's punishment of our sins. As it is man who has sinned, the Lord must become a human being Himself to have a body of flesh and blood, so that He could bear the punishment to bleed and die for us.

         

        Sounds to me as though God through Jesus beared for our sins for God's punishment. Sounds as though in punishing us, God punished himself? Now where on earth does that make sense?

         
         
         If we do not have freedom of choice, then why do we have the choice of either accepting or denying God and Jesus Christ.
         
        Nettrecker: We do have a choice, its either God's way or the highway leading to hell.
         
         Why is it then that we can either obey laws or disobey them.
         
        Nettrecker: Do you know how many commanments there are in the first five books of the bible. The number would be 613. Do  also know one of the commandments is , if you don't observe the sabbath, you should be stoned. How many people have you stoned? 
         
         We simply need to accept the consequences of our actions.
         
        Do unto others as they would do unto you is a philosophy which means you should set an example for others to follow. 
         
        Nettrecker: God doesn't follow that. God says, " you 're going to do it my way, or you're going to hell".
         
         If you want to steal and murder others, other people may end up doing that to you in the end.
         
        If you help others and try to be their friends, others may do the same to you.  Of course, or sinful nature doesn't make that statement 100% reliable.
         
        As I said, we have rebelled against God too and must pay the ultimate price. At least God gives us a chance at redemption.
         
        Nettrecker: Sorry, I have my own mind, I don't blindly follow any thing.
        ]
         The matority of earthly monarchs and dictators have also crushed anybody who dared to challenge them.
         
        Nettrecker: Exactly my point

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