--- drvr2hrdwr <drvr2hrdwr@...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rick Ross
> > Leon: Virtually
all known culturally
> > institutionalized forms of
> > known to cultural anthropology are viewed
> > practioners as
> > moral RELIGIOUS actions. The same holds for
> > "survival strategies" of
> Rick: That's exactly my point.And
are you saying
> values differ from group to
group, and from
> species to
> species? If so, I again
challenge you by saying
> morality is no more then an
> constructed by Homo sapiens to keep
> expressing parts of their true
> Neil5: Rick, this is perhaps like saying that
> written laws are an illusion that we have
> constructed to
prevent citizens from expressing
> their true nature, which is to rape,
Rick: That's exactly correct. If
those things we
idenify as immoral behavior was not widely
but rather rare, we wouldn't require so many laws on
books, nor would we require large police forces tp
Leon: "Laws" and "police forces" LONG predated
their "formulation" in so-called "civilizations!" They are built into our very
human nature in ALL known cultures. BOTH "immoral" and "moral" behavior
are "widely intrinsic," as you appear to recognize ONLY for "immoral"
behavor, Rick. You evidently have no problem as all in seeing humans as
innately "immoral." Why all the difficulty with recognizing the corresponding
innateness of "morality?"
>And under given conditions what you consider
the moral model of a
person, we all know in the
condition can behave in an immoral way.
If an animal is able to steal a piece of food from one
of it's own
species, is that immoral behavior, or
simply survival behavior?
Leon: It's simply survival behavior, UNTIL one
sees it occuring in the IN-GROUPS of humans and chimps. THERE, we see
"begging" behavior by the "have nots."
>If a human steals food from
another human - given the previous
example - is it
immoral. I hope you're getting my point!
Leon: Ah, but it's NOT immoral IF the human
steals the food from a member of an OUT-GROUP! I hope your getting MY point,
> Codes of behavior are quite real, I'm don't
> see how you find them to be illusions. Altruistic
behavior is observed in social species from insects
> to us.
Selfish behavior is also observed in those
> same species.
Rick: Codes of behavior are quite real; we agree!
What we don't agree on is
the illusionary value
society has put on them - called morality. The
reason what you call morality is even in play is we
each. Nothing to do with "good" or
"bad", only "survival", so we can
Leon: May we then take it that you DON'T take mere human "survival" as a
"good" thing, Rick, but as being ALSO an "illusionary value?" Do you
consider ALL things characterized as "good" to be ipso facto "illusionary
social values?" If not, please give us an example of something that is "good"
that is NOT such an "illusionary social value?"
Altruistic," interesting word." Okay Neil, lets
see if you can give an
example of the word that does
not utimately does serve survival.
Leon: WHOSE or WHAT'S "survival," Rick? If I
sacrifice my self for my group, am I not contributing to the groups' survival?
And, may the group not thereby probably pass on the "memes" that *I*
valued, or may have even created?
> I don't understand why you
> behavior to be an illusion.
Because in reality, the genes which is
reponsible for this, and all
behavior, selfishly uses
it for one purpose only, survival and
Again, give your examples of altruistic behavior
Leon: Surely you are not "reifying" Dawkins'
"selfish gene concept, Rick, and picturing genes as being CONSCIOUSLY
Again, that's my point, the use the illusion
morality is nothing less then a tool to justify and
control our behavior.
Leon: Exactly WHO IS USING this alleged
"tool," to "justify and control our behavior," Rick?
> Neil5: Cultural adaptation has become the dominate
adaptive mechanism in our species. Other species
> must adapt
genetically or become extinct in the face
> of an environment becoming
hostile. We have the
> ability to adapt culturally to enhance
> under changing conditions.
> Since it is
human behavior that most greatly
> threatens human survival it is
necessary to use
> cultural adaptation to control self
> human behavior. If we wait for our DNA to catch
> to world conditions it will be to late for most of
> us to
> I prefer the cultural adaptation of laws and
behavioral codes to the genetic method whereby we
> would just kill each
other off until only a very few
> of the strongest individuals were left
Rick: As long as you're frasing it as above,
no objections; we agree!
Rick:My objections are, when moral,
immoral, good and
bad are fed into the equation. That when I have
> > Leon: This
is not true for humans especially.
> > not
> > die rather than behave
> Rick: Not uncommonly, I want
> Neil5: Suicide pilots of WWII and Suicide
> of today consider themselves to be acting out of the
highly moral code of struggling for the survival of
> their own people
and at the behest of their own
Rick: I'll give you
the same answer I gave Leon.
Survival and procreation take priority
everything. If these indivduals have a higher
takes care of them, in what you
described above. It's a good bet there were
many japanese General that performed this act.
Leon: Actually, Japanese PRIZED and PRAISED suicide, ESPECIALLY in failed
leaders. They EXPECTED to perform hari kari! So much for genetic survival
being over-ridden by learned cultural values!
And sorry Leon, the mechanics of evolution say
> wrong! Survival and procreation takes
This was true for individuals until certain
> species evolved
instinctive (genetic) altruism.
> This has become even less true for
> advanced species developed cultural altruism as
> net species survival strategy.
Rick: The problem is,
in todays world, currently,
your example does not hold up. My example for
does not hold: The middle east! Us, them,
Leon: With reference to morality, Rick, it is
your example that does not hold up. This is because morality only makes sense
with reference to cultural in-groups, and there are no cultures that take the
entire species as the in-group. In fact, the common pattern is to treat
members of other cultures as not even being really human!