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  • r_kusnery
    Bugs: 1. When throwing a large rock you ll always have ZERO chance to hit, unless you enchant your rocks with scrolls of Enchant Weapon I. 2. Fractional
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 5, 2004
      Bugs:
      1. When throwing a large rock you'll always have ZERO chance to hit,
      unless you enchant your rocks with scrolls of Enchant Weapon I.

      2. "Fractional learning" does not work. Instead of giving the player
      less than the usual 10 skill points, it totally wastes the experience
      and gives the player nothing. To fix this, the variable "deg" needs
      to start out at 10 instead of being multiplied by 10 later. Also,
      the
      "bonus" variable needs to be multiplied by 10 right before the
      "fractional learning" thing instead of waiting until later.

      3. Spriggans can see invisible but this isn't shown in Mutations &
      Weirdnesses.

      4. Is Death Channel SUPPOSED to work on summoned creatures?

      5. Are all altars to Nemelex Xobeh outside of the Ecumenical Temple
      SUPPOSED to be portable? I found a mini-temple once, and was able to
      pick up the altar to Nemelex.

      6. I once fought an "abomination zombie" on level 9 of the dungeon.
      That shouldn't happen, should it?

      Inconsistency: Monsters can't pick up randarts, and randarts can't be
      damaged by attacking a jelly with it. So why can jellies EAT them?
      Shouldn't it be harder to totally destroy something than to merely
      damage it?

      Ghouls: They're 6 or 7 times harder to start than Demonspawn
      Wanderers, or so I judge by the fact that my ninth Demonspawn
      Wanderer
      made it to the temple, but it took about 60 ghouls. Also, ghouls
      usually die before exploring even half of level 1 of the dungeon,
      while only about half of the demonspawn wanderers died on level 1.
      (also the ghoul that made to the temple found a mace and plate mail
      on
      level 1) Ghouls are way too clumsy to use a short sword, so they
      should start with Unarmed Combat instead of a short sword. Then
      maybe
      it wouldn't be such a lottery. Besides, it's more "in-character" for
      a ghoul to rip his victims apart instead of using a weapon.


      Suggestions:
      1. Add macro modes: normal mode and a mode where it only stops for
      "ouch that really hurt" or "low HP warning".

      2. Add a "priority stair mapping" mode where stairs, shops and other
      entrances will always be shown on the map even if creatures or items
      are on top of them. Also, it should be possible to see all maps, not
      just the one for the level you're on.

      3. Make it possible for your zombies/summoned creatures to move
      towards an unoccupied location. Maybe make it so that Projected
      Noise
      attracts friendly monsters. Maybe make it so that if the player is
      invisible, friendly monsters that can't see invisible will wander
      instead of following him.

      4. It shouldn't be possible to make a specter from a ghoul or
      necrophage. However, using Animate Dead should produce a regular
      ghoul or necrophage instead of a "ghoul zombie" or "necrophage
      zombie".

      5. Make it possible to assign macros to function keys. And make it
      impossible to assign a macro to the ` key.

      6. Add a "god of archery" who would give ammo and the occasional
      launcher as gifts. Also add a snake-demon god who provides all of
      the
      unused invocations except Shuggoth Seed.
    • bwross@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
      // Bugs: // 1. When throwing a large rock you ll always have ZERO chance to hit, // unless you enchant your rocks with scrolls of Enchant Weapon I. Feature.
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 5, 2004
        // Bugs:
        // 1. When throwing a large rock you'll always have ZERO chance to hit,
        // unless you enchant your rocks with scrolls of Enchant Weapon I.

        Feature. PC's aren't supposed to be able to chuck these things very well
        (really, at all) anyways.

        // 2. "Fractional learning" does not work. Instead of giving the player
        // less than the usual 10 skill points, it totally wastes the experience
        // and gives the player nothing. To fix this, the variable "deg" needs
        // to start out at 10 instead of being multiplied by 10 later. Also,
        // the
        // "bonus" variable needs to be multiplied by 10 right before the
        // "fractional learning" thing instead of waiting until later.

        You don't seem to understand the system at all. It does work in that
        version, and in the partial rewriten version as well... I should know
        since I play with diagnostics on all the time and see it actually happen.

        In b26, you aren't going to be wasting experience:

        - if the fractional part was 0, then skill change will be 0 in the
        ranged combat section (the only potential problem)

        - if that's the case then, if deg, fraction, and bonus are all zero
        (which would result in no gain), the traditional "free lunch" comes
        back into play and the cost (called "skill_change" (sic)) is set
        to zero

        In the new code, I have a return in there to avoid going through all
        the spending and checks for level advancement which just aren't going
        to happen.

        Multiplying everything by ten like you suggest (for deg it doesn't
        make sense... that's the number of learnings (and a legacy feature
        that's skill around in case that gets sucked back in)) would just remove
        the granularity that was added. The extra granularity isn't there to
        provide fine tuning on every skill learning... only to handle the old
        "free lunch" problems where we were giving too much.

        // 3. Spriggans can see invisible but this isn't shown in Mutations &
        // Weirdnesses.

        Many things aren't... Sometimes I curse the person (whoever it was) that
        put the species lines on that screen. This will not be fixed until
        that entire system is fixed.

        // 4. Is Death Channel SUPPOSED to work on summoned creatures?

        This is certainly a bug.

        // 5. Are all altars to Nemelex Xobeh outside of the Ecumenical Temple
        // SUPPOSED to be portable? I found a mini-temple once, and was able to
        // pick up the altar to Nemelex.

        This is a feature... I know that for a fact because I've been telling
        people about it for years.

        // 6. I once fought an "abomination zombie" on level 9 of the dungeon.
        // That shouldn't happen, should it?

        Consider yourself lucky that it got created instead of hanging the
        game... that zombie code has always been trouble.

        // Inconsistency: Monsters can't pick up randarts, and randarts can't be
        // damaged by attacking a jelly with it. So why can jellies EAT them?
        // Shouldn't it be harder to totally destroy something than to merely
        // damage it?

        Monsters can't pick up artefacts because there was no support for them
        using them... it's as simple as that. Three of the fixed artefacts have
        special code for the monsters to fake it. Randarts can't be damaged
        because that (traditionally) would change what their powers are (unrand
        arts would just completely break). So it's not really inconsistant...
        jellies can eat them because that's something they can actually do to
        them that will work, the other stuff doesn't happen because it would
        make things in the code break).

        // Ghouls: They're 6 or 7 times harder to start than Demonspawn
        // Wanderers,

        We do nothing to make the unlife of ghouls easier. In fact, I've
        found that overtime various changes I've made have been making their
        life indirectly easier (and those food messages someone else added have
        almost made them seem trivial... I've been tempted to remove them, or
        have them occasionally fail), which is too much. Keeping ghouls as a
        challenge class is important. That said, I find them much easier than
        DS Wanderers... you need to adjust your playing style to them.

        // Suggestions:
        // 1. Add macro modes: normal mode and a mode where it only stops for
        // "ouch that really hurt" or "low HP warning".

        That would be a flush option. I've already added one for danger messages
        (which is what these two are)... you can fudge the same by finding the
        FLUSH_ON_MESSAGE call in messages and only calling it when channel ==
        MSGCH_DANGER. Then set the option to true.

        // 2. Add a "priority stair mapping" mode where stairs, shops and other
        // entrances will always be shown on the map even if creatures or items
        // are on top of them. Also, it should be possible to see all maps, not
        // just the one for the level you're on.

        I've done some work to add faked layers into the map. With that, it
        shouldn't be so necessary to do this because there's a clear map command
        and the entrances can be coloured again. This all plays havok with
        Darshan's stuff (he's going to have to do some reworking).

        // 3. Make it possible for your zombies/summoned creatures to move
        // towards an unoccupied location. Maybe make it so that Projected
        // Noise
        // attracts friendly monsters. Maybe make it so that if the player is
        // invisible, friendly monsters that can't see invisible will wander
        // instead of following him.

        Gordon had them wandering and tracking freely at one point and it was far
        too overpowerful. Get to clvl 3, enter a new level, cast a few imps and
        listen to the carnage for a while. Then wander a fairly empty level and
        pick up the loot. Keeping them snuggly makes them not as gross.

        Still, as it currently stands, pet hordes are overpowered and I think
        they could use a bit of trimming (both for players and a lesser extent
        monsters (monsters need to produce a fair amount of incentive for
        Abjuration however)).

        // 4. It shouldn't be possible to make a specter from a ghoul or
        // necrophage. However, using Animate Dead should produce a regular
        // ghoul or necrophage instead of a "ghoul zombie" or "necrophage
        // zombie".

        Testing b26, and I can't animate these corpses at all... which is
        how it should be, since it isn't such a powerful spell as resurect
        these particular nasty monsters. If there is a way to produce
        zombie versions with it then I consider it a feature... you got an
        animated corpse at the capability of the spells ability.

        // 5. Make it possible to assign macros to function keys. And make it
        // impossible to assign a macro to the ` key.

        You can assign macros to functions keys... it varies on a bunch of
        factors as to what the escape sequences are, however. Still, on my
        system I can use the in-game to set them (they come up as the \{27}OP,
        \{27}OQ sequences I'd expect). Otherwise, I'd need to know (or be able
        to produce in an editor) the escape sequences and edit the file manually.

        As for not assigning `... that's a personal choice. I happen to know,
        and have myself done, people who do macro it (macroing it to escape is
        a way to get around the escape delay without the potentially dangerous
        curses hack). This is dangerous if you rely on the in-game system... but
        you can always remove that macro manually (or quit and restart if you
        didn't dump it) so it's not a permanent problem... a learning experience
        for those who weren't thinking the first time they did it perhaps.

        // 6. Add a "god of archery" who would give ammo and the occasional
        // launcher as gifts. Also add a snake-demon god who provides all of
        // the unused invocations except Shuggoth Seed.

        Rangers were renamed Hunters for this reason. Giving out launchers as
        gifts wouldn't be very exciting. There's no way the invocations of both
        of Josh's unused gods are going to be collapsed into one god... I have
        thought about adding back his Serpent god (which might be interesting...
        the Shuggoth thing has issues, which you seem to have grasped). These
        won't be done until a full reworking of the gods (Gavin tinkered with Zin
        and TSO a bit, but the truth is that there are problems across the board).
        If people want to discuss that, maybe we can get some traffic back into
        the group.

        Brent Ross
      • Courtney C. Campbell
        ... just a note, that I for one read every message in the group but don t contribute because the only machine I have here in alaska is a classic OS powerbook,
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 5, 2004
          >If people want to discuss that, maybe we can get some traffic back into
          >the group.

          just a note, that I for one read every message in the group but don't
          contribute because the only machine I have here in alaska is a
          classic OS powerbook, which won't run the current version of crawl. I
          have played crawl (and love it) and am eagerly awaiting any new
          releases - or the purchase of a new powerbook running OSX so I can
          play with version 4.

          I've inquired about version 5 before (with an offer to help) but it
          looks dead in the water? It is _very_ nice to see that you're still
          working on version 4 Brent. When you get unmotivated just think of me
          here in the frozen wastes awaiting the next version (and a computer
          to play it on)

          >Brent Ross

          -Campbell
          Play Steamband! http://angband.oook.cz/steamband
        • Mark Mackey
          ... Ditto: I ve got a ghoul going at the moment and they re not that hard. The trick is to throw away the short sword :). Once they get to high level they re
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 6, 2004
            > Keeping ghouls as a
            > challenge class is important. That said, I find them much easier than
            > DS Wanderers... you need to adjust your playing style to them.

            Ditto: I've got a ghoul going at the moment and they're not that hard.
            The trick is to throw away the short sword :). Once they get to high
            level they're frighteningly munchkin: immunity to Torment, poison, and
            level drain makes Pandemonium and Hell a piece of cake.

            > won't be done until a full reworking of the gods (Gavin tinkered with Zin
            > and TSO a bit, but the truth is that there are problems across the board).
            > If people want to discuss that, maybe we can get some traffic back into
            > the group.

            So what are your ideas here? I agree that the current set of gods, while
            good, are not ideal. Is the idea to make the gods a little less
            role-specific? At the moment there's no point worshipping Kiku unless
            you're a Necromancer.

            --
            Mark Mackey
            The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
            Hints, tips and spoilers
            http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/
          • Jeff Bay
            so what are your general strategies for keeping a ghoul alive? I ve tried quite a few times, but I can t seem to get past the initial hump. Now spriggans, on
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 6, 2004
              so what are your general strategies for keeping a ghoul alive? I've tried
              quite a few times, but I can't seem to get past the initial hump. Now
              spriggans, on the other hand, I can get to level 10+ every time.

              --- Mark Mackey <mark@...> wrote:

              > > Keeping ghouls as a
              > > challenge class is important. That said, I find them much easier than
              > > DS Wanderers... you need to adjust your playing style to them.
              >
              > Ditto: I've got a ghoul going at the moment and they're not that hard.
              > The trick is to throw away the short sword :). Once they get to high
              > level they're frighteningly munchkin: immunity to Torment, poison, and
              > level drain makes Pandemonium and Hell a piece of cake.
              >
              > > won't be done until a full reworking of the gods (Gavin tinkered with
              > Zin
              > > and TSO a bit, but the truth is that there are problems across the
              > board).
              > > If people want to discuss that, maybe we can get some traffic back
              > into
              > > the group.
              >
              > So what are your ideas here? I agree that the current set of gods, while
              > good, are not ideal. Is the idea to make the gods a little less
              > role-specific? At the moment there's no point worshipping Kiku unless
              > you're a Necromancer.
              >
              > --
              > Mark Mackey
              > The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
              > Hints, tips and spoilers
              > http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              =====
              --
              We have tamed lightning and now use it to make sand think.
              Jeff Bay (469) 867-0370 jlb0170@...
              Resume: http://www.xpteam.com/jeff
            • bwross@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
              // so what are your general strategies for keeping a ghoul alive? I ve tried // quite a few times, but I can t seem to get past the initial hump. Now //
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 6, 2004
                // so what are your general strategies for keeping a ghoul alive? I've tried
                // quite a few times, but I can't seem to get past the initial hump. Now
                // spriggans, on the other hand, I can get to level 10+ every time.

                THe key to ghouls is in chunk management. You need to know two important
                things:

                a) Ghouls like their meat tangy. So don't eat fresh chunks. Learn
                when to eat your rotten chunks to get the most out of each one.

                b) Ghouls don't regenerate HPs well. However, the rotting makes it
                unadvisable to wait around too long... but you can use chunks to
                heal to counter that. In fact this is key to the above... don't let
                chunks rot away... use them agressively for HP if you don't need them
                to restore your max HP).

                Learn to use your chunks effectively and try to push a bit deeper into
                the dungeon where the big, meaty, multi-chunk monsters are more common
                (like Trolls, but you need to be a bit more careful).

                Brent Ross
              • Jesse Jones
                ... Pretty much. I got fed up with C++ s lack of flexibility and poor integration with scripting languages so I started looking for alternatives. I ve been
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 6, 2004
                  On Sep 5, 2004, at 8:52 PM, Courtney C. Campbell wrote:

                  > I've inquired about version 5 before (with an offer to help) but it
                  > looks dead in the water?

                  Pretty much. I got fed up with C++'s lack of flexibility and poor
                  integration with scripting languages so I started looking for
                  alternatives. I've been experimenting with creating new component
                  oriented languages using dynamic typing and functional programming
                  since then...

                  -- Jesse
                • r_kusnery
                  ... player ... experience ... that Whoops. I guess I misread the source. ... is ... was far ... and Well, I was thinking more of just letting them go to a
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 10, 2004
                    --- In crawl-dev@yahoogroups.com, bwross@c... wrote:
                    > // Bugs:
                    > // 2. "Fractional learning" does not work. Instead of giving the
                    player
                    > // less than the usual 10 skill points, it totally wastes the
                    experience
                    > You don't seem to understand the system at all. It does work in
                    that
                    Whoops. I guess I misread the source.

                    > // 3. Make it possible for your zombies/summoned creatures to move
                    > // towards an unoccupied location. Maybe make it so that Projected
                    > // Noise
                    > // attracts friendly monsters. Maybe make it so that if the player
                    is
                    > // invisible, friendly monsters that can't see invisible will wander
                    > // instead of following him.
                    >
                    > Gordon had them wandering and tracking freely at one point and it
                    was far
                    > too overpowerful. Get to clvl 3, enter a new level, cast a few imps
                    and
                    Well, I was thinking more of just letting them go to a
                    player-specified location within sight (which they would of course
                    forget about if you moved so their destination is no longer in sight)
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