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[crawl-dev] RE: LOW HITPOINT WARNING

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  • d.brodale
    ... That (the blessed genitalia of orc slaying) has truly become irritating. I will suggest that we move the dev list to a privately-operated mail list. I m
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 1, 2004
      On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, Johnny Piacentini wrote:

      > I mean that in the last 4 months or so the ml was almost silent...
      > except of course for the occasional spam telling us how to get a blessed
      > penis +4. :-)

      That (the blessed genitalia of orc slaying) has truly become irritating.
      I will suggest that we move the dev list to a privately-operated mail
      list. I'm more than willing to set this up, but I'd like the migration
      blessed by the core maintainers (Brent for 4.x, Jesse for 5.x) and a
      general consensus on this. Increasingly, I've grown to despise Yahoo!s
      management of free lists such as crawl-dev, and the hoops that one has
      to jump through (ad-wise) to view past content. Not to mention the spam
      and the mishandling of the last list merge that FUBARed the link
      repository, etc.

      I believe we should move this list elsewhere and post periodic reminders
      to the crawl-dev list on Yahoo! that it has moved. Along with this, I'd
      like to migrate the past list content into a better (ad-free) repository.

      But I need support on this.


      > Uhmmm... maybe I didn't make my point clear... I was just saying I'm
      > available for that kind of task. I'm already mantaining and developing
      > on a big code base as a job... I don't think I could actually add new
      > stuff to crawl with my current time schedule, but I could help with the
      > management. Only if you all think this could be needed / useful.

      Well, as Brent has chimed in, these patches are largely not going to make
      it into the core codebase for a number of reasons. As for maintaining
      patch collections, etc. again I can offer space for it at dungeoncrawl.org
      and an interface. I believe in most cases these patches will have to be
      maintained as patches outside the main tree. Past statements on where 4.x
      is going has been: balancing and stability.

      Presently, one can always upload patches to the file archives associated
      with Yahoo!s crawl-dev list. This is, of course, suboptimal, but for all
      those who have patches in hand, it has been the means in the past to share
      coded ideas, regardless of whether they make it into core Crawl.


      > What I see (but I might be wrong) is that no one is officialy keeping
      > track of bugs, developments and the like... no one knows what to tell to
      > guys proposing to add patches to the code base. There's no one to direct
      > them to.

      This is true. I may have to refire the wiki or an alternate mechanism at
      dungeoncrawl.org for this. I will admit that I lost a lot of energy in
      tracking/backing Crawl over the past year due to outside concerns. Your
      point regarding contact people is valid.

      For those running Debian, there have been mechanism for bug tracking and
      reporting available for over a year. Sadly, this is limited to only that
      particular packaging of the game. For Crawl to be packaged for other
      platforms and distros would be nice (I would personally love to see one
      step forward to maintain it for use with Fink on OS X), but community
      support for alternate packages and compilations has been spotty at best.

      Anyway, you're right, the directions for contact are a bit hazy, and I
      agree that simply directing people to crawl-dev here on Yahoo! or to
      post to r.g.r.misc isn't ideal.

      Your points are quite valid. There are three chief weaknesses at present:
      (1) Lack of clear communication channels (2) Lack of orderly bug tracking
      and (3) Lack of solid documentation. Patch submission and the like, though
      important, is of lesser significance, though should probably be addressed
      along with some semblance of periodic "we're not dead yet" messages to
      signal development continues should releases not appear for a goodly
      stretch of time.


      > Patches shouldn't be added to the code base on a rush, but they should
      > at least be considered and archived.

      See above.

      -don
    • Johnny Piacentini
      ... I m your tamed Chief WorkTroll w/ a ring of Intelligence +8. :-) If you need a hand, just drop a line... if you think they might come in handy, I got a
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 1, 2004
        d.brodale wrote:

        >I believe we should move this list elsewhere and post periodic reminders
        >to the crawl-dev list on Yahoo! that it has moved. Along with this, I'd
        >like to migrate the past list content into a better (ad-free) repository.
        >
        >But I need support on this.
        >
        >
        I'm your tamed Chief WorkTroll w/ a ring of Intelligence +8. :-)
        If you need a hand, just drop a line... if you think they might come in
        handy, I got a server, bandwidth, space and a lot of crawl-playing
        minions to assign humble and repetitive tasks to. ;-)

        >Well, as Brent has chimed in, these patches are largely not going to make
        >it into the core codebase for a number of reasons. As for maintaining
        >patch collections, etc. again I can offer space for it at dungeoncrawl.org
        >and an interface. I believe in most cases these patches will have to be
        >maintained as patches outside the main tree. Past statements on where 4.x
        >is going has been: balancing and stability.
        >
        >
        I mostly agree with Brent for what concerns this particular set of patches.
        At this point in time, I don't think this kind of contribs would survive
        the smallest bugfix release, so your idea of archiving them as-is is
        probably ideal.
        The 4.x codebase it's hard to branch... achieving an higher level of
        modularity on the whole 4.x codebase would be a wasted effort, as this
        is basicly the aim for the 5.x rewrite.

        Probably there's not even a real need for an interface... just a per
        release contrib directory.
        If anyone would like to try them out, they could diff the source they
        were built for and compile on their own.

        This specific kind of patch is what made Angband a damn forest of
        variants and I don't think this would be a good thing for Crawl at this
        point.
        Yet, having someone work heavily on a shopping-enabled version of Crawl
        could in the long run lead to important considerations on how to
        integrate something similar without killing balance.

        As players tend to follow the dark path to the most feature enabled
        version, I think that keeping variations under control could help
        leaving the world of Crawl "clean" from dozens of Wizardlame-patches.

        >Presently, one can always upload patches to the file archives associated
        >with Yahoo!s crawl-dev list. This is, of course, suboptimal, but for all
        >those who have patches in hand, it has been the means in the past to share
        >coded ideas, regardless of whether they make it into core Crawl.
        >
        >
        That's true... in fact having a semi-open FTP could be a REALLY BAD
        idea... dozens of 10minutes contribs with cheats and big weaps would
        make it impossible to sort things out.
        I think a good way to handle relations with wannabe developers would be
        to periodically post a FAQ to the newsgroup describing the submission
        process.

        We could setup special mail boxes for bug reporting, code contribution
        and feature requests (argh :-) )

        Features and bugs could be posted to some kind of webpage as for
        NetHack.org... this helps making the newsgroup a bit more tidy and less
        repetitive.
        Code submissions could be forced to be in form of .diff with a thorough
        description of the changes introduces.

        Some kind of bugzilla-like interface could make this whole process even
        easier to mantain.

        I think I can ready a beta version of somthing like this in few days, if
        you think this could be worth considering.

        >This is true. I may have to refire the wiki or an alternate mechanism at
        >dungeoncrawl.org for this. I will admit that I lost a lot of energy in
        >tracking/backing Crawl over the past year due to outside concerns. Your
        >point regarding contact people is valid.
        >
        >
        I do understand REALLY well. :-)
        I'm in charge for most of the front-end and back-end web applications
        for a big ISP in Italy... keeping track of everything during development
        is REALLY a mess.

        >For those running Debian, there have been mechanism for bug tracking and
        >reporting available for over a year. Sadly, this is limited to only that
        >particular packaging of the game. For Crawl to be packaged for other
        >platforms and distros would be nice (I would personally love to see one
        >step forward to maintain it for use with Fink on OS X), but community
        >support for alternate packages and compilations has been spotty at best.
        >
        >
        I'm stuck with XP for various reasons... I tried Crawl on different
        platforms (mainly Linux Boxes) just out of pure curiosity.
        How's 5.x progressing? I know a few devs working on OS X and other, more
        exotic, platforms, but if 5.x is growing healthy it would be just a
        waste of effort to stabilize 4.x furthermore.

        I am surely up to the task if we want to set up a web based bug
        reporting mechanism. That would be useful both now and after 5.x has
        been completed.


        In short these are my proposals:

        - Mantain a FAQ on the newsgroup with contact instructions
        - Create contrib directories per-release on the web site
        - Create a bug reporting / feature requesting / code contrib frontend
        - Publish reports on bugs and requests already submitted

        I might handle any of those...

        As for moving the mailing list... where am I to sign? :-)


        Cya!

        -- bitMaster
      • Daniel Ligon
        ... I m certainly OK with it. While I was doubtful about Onelist when we started this list, they seemed better than Yahoo is now. Have you a service in mind?
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
          On Sun, Feb 01, 2004 at 04:15:50PM -0500, d.brodale wrote:
          >
          >
          > I believe we should move this list elsewhere and post periodic reminders
          > to the crawl-dev list on Yahoo! that it has moved. Along with this, I'd
          > like to migrate the past list content into a better (ad-free) repository.
          >
          > But I need support on this.

          I'm certainly OK with it. While I was doubtful about Onelist when
          we started this list, they seemed better than Yahoo is now.

          Have you a service in mind?

          > This is true. I may have to refire the wiki or an alternate mechanism at
          > dungeoncrawl.org for this. I will admit that I lost a lot of energy in
          > tracking/backing Crawl over the past year due to outside concerns. Your
          > point regarding contact people is valid.

          I thought the wiki had great promise.

          > (1) Lack of clear communication channels (2) Lack of orderly bug tracking
          > and (3) Lack of solid documentation. Patch submission and the like, though
          > important, is of lesser significance, though should probably be addressed
          > along with some semblance of periodic "we're not dead yet" messages to
          > signal development continues should releases not appear for a goodly
          > stretch of time.

          We need to try to distribute some of the coding. The odd dependencies
          and misrepresentations in the code make that more difficult, but we
          should attempt it nonetheless.

          --
          Daniel Ligon maglorn@...

          Bringing in the Lords of Chaos Sucking out the souls of heroes
          Bringing up the Beasts of Hades Laying waste to knights and ladies
        • Daniel Ligon
          ... Has anyone heard from Jesse recently about the rewrite? -- Daniel Ligon maglorn@comcast.net Bringing in the Lords of
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
            On Mon, Feb 02, 2004 at 12:18:01AM +0100, Johnny Piacentini wrote:
            > The 4.x codebase it's hard to branch... achieving an higher level of
            > modularity on the whole 4.x codebase would be a wasted effort, as this
            > is basicly the aim for the 5.x rewrite.

            Has anyone heard from Jesse recently about the rewrite?

            --
            Daniel Ligon maglorn@...

            Bringing in the Lords of Chaos Sucking out the souls of heroes
            Bringing up the Beasts of Hades Laying waste to knights and ladies
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