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Re: Speaking of "a" & "A" (& "z" & "Z")

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  • your_cute_little_slavegirl
    I agree with the button swapping idea, sounds like a rather good idea if you ask me
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 4, 2002
      I agree with the button swapping idea, sounds like a rather good idea
      if you ask me
    • Josh Fishman
      Anyone else mildly puzzled about the differences between the colors (& names) of Draconians and Dragons? Breath Dragon Draconian ... Fire
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 5, 2002
        Anyone else mildly puzzled about the differences between
        the colors (& names) of Draconians and Dragons?


        Breath Dragon Draconian
        ------ ------ ---------
        Fire Green Red
        Poison Brown (Swamp) Green
        (Melee) Iron Grey
        Lightning Blue (Storm) Black
        Draining Shadow ?
        Acid ? Gold
        Power ? Purple

        Cold White White
        Sticky Mottled Mottled
        Steam Pale Pale


        Those last three already have intuitive names.

        For those which do not match, are there any objections
        to changing the Draconian names to make them like their
        related Dragon names?

        Specifically:

        Green -> Swamp (color description: "muddy speckled scales")
        Grey -> Iron (color description: "smokey metallic scales")
        Black -> Storm (color description: "electric blue scales")


        There is a problem with Green (Fire) Dragons, though.
        Firedrakes, lavasnakes and other fire-related beasts
        are all red. Dragons are green.

        IMO Dragons should be red, and Wyverns should be green.
        Then the "degenerate" draconic beasts (hydrae and wyverns)
        will share a color scheme, and fire breathing creatures
        will likewise share a color scheme.


        In a similar vein, I'd like to add Shadow Draconians.
        They'd be good at Necromancy (70 in skills2.cc), bad
        at Enchantments (150), slightly better at stealth (110),
        get a Bolt of Draining breath weapon and at level 18
        become intrinsically resistant to draining attacks.

        ---Josh
      • mannix
        ... This, of course, ruins the color symmetry of Draconian racial naming. It also mucks with high score lists (at least) in terms of the three-character (I
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 5, 2002
          On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, Josh Fishman wrote:

          > Breath Dragon Draconian
          > ------ ------ ---------
          > Fire Green Red
          > Poison Brown (Swamp) Green
          > (Melee) Iron Grey
          > Lightning Blue (Storm) Black
          > Draining Shadow ?
          > Acid ? Gold
          > Power ? Purple
          >
          > Cold White White
          > Sticky Mottled Mottled
          > Steam Pale Pale

          > [A]re there any objections to changing the Draconian
          > names to make them like their related Dragon names?
          >
          > Specifically:
          >
          > Green -> Swamp (color description: "muddy speckled scales")
          > Grey -> Iron (color description: "smokey metallic scales")
          > Black -> Storm (color description: "electric blue scales")

          This, of course, ruins the color symmetry of Draconian
          racial naming. It also mucks with high score lists (at
          least) in terms of the three-character (I think) code
          used to denote which race a character was -- it's minor
          mucking, but mucking all the same.

          It's also a partial solution that doesn't really serve
          your claim to greater symmetry well, as it only addresses
          three of nine draconian types, and the least problematic
          (from your persepctive of coloration) ones, at that.

          Perhaps in the world of Crawl draconians are rare beings
          (given their parentage, I would only hope so). Given that,
          other sentients refer to them by color and not ability,
          having rarely seen the exercise of their powers. Pure
          speculation on my part, but "works for me" ...

          Simply put: a dragon pounds on me with steam, I'll call it
          a Steam Dragon. Another is found only in swamps, I'll probably
          call it a Swamp Dragon. Now, if I encountered a draconian
          on the street, I'd tell a friend I saw a "[Color] Draconian"
          walk by earlier in the day.

          To me, it would make more sense -- should one seek firmer
          alignment in naming -- to revert to D&D naming conventions
          for dragons: colors all around. But ...

          You're missing the distinction between Dragons and Draconians
          that already exists: Dragons are described in terms other
          than coloration, Draconians are described by the color of
          their scales. I *like* the fact that this distinction exists.
          I understand the motivation for linking things up a bit
          more, but I fear it will drain a bit of color [*groan*] out
          of the game.

          I don't see Gold or Quicksilver dragons on the list. I also
          don't see a complete listing of colors associated with actual
          dragon names as presented in-game ... time to dig around a bit
          to recall what the full set of match-ups is.


          > There is a problem with Green (Fire) Dragons, though.
          > Firedrakes, lavasnakes and other fire-related beasts
          > are all red. Dragons are green.

          That's a "traditional" color for dragons, I think
          ("Dragons are green.") ... since they are simply known
          within the game as "dragons", I don't see the issue
          as being incredibly earth-shattering. My assumption is
          that players will assume a basic dragon breathes fire.

          In other words, I think you are overstating any actual
          issue. I like symmetry as much as the next fellow, but
          is there really cause for confusion here (in terms of
          dragon v. draconian naming practices)?

          Color (as represented on-screen) may or may not be used
          as a primary signifier of a monster's attack type within
          Crawl ... it would be an interesting thing to investigate
          beyond the scope of dragons.


          > In a similar vein, I'd like to add Shadow Draconians.

          No comment, apart from balancing issues and that "fill
          in the chart" logic probably flies better with version
          5.0.0 (the rewrite) than the current codebase (4.0.0),
          where the emphasis should remain on fixing what is there
          than adding even more "stuff" ...

          - don
        • Brent Ross
          // Here is a small interface issue. // // The a command is use special ability . Most of the special abilities // are provided by the character s deity,
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 21, 2002
            // Here is a small interface issue.
            //
            // The "a" command is "use special ability". Most of the special abilities
            // are provided by the character's deity, and are labeled with uppercase
            // letters.

            Depends on the character. I seldom use Invocations with the
            gods I typically play. Nagas, demonspawn, and draconians will
            often find themselves using breathe weapons/mutations. Overall,
            once I finally finish up these macros you'll be able to put
            Minor Destruction on tab (in fact you'll probably want to),
            and it won't matter.

            // The label-ability mapping is also fixed, barring religious
            // conversion. The other abilities are labeled with lowercase letters,
            // and the labels are transient - putting on a ring of teleportation can
            // alter the order and hence label of the abilities.

            Actually, in case you haven't noticed, I did try and order the
            abilities to keep this sort of mess to a minimum. Evocations
            come at the end, so the ring of teleportation won't alter your
            breath weapon. In the end, there's probably a larger call just
            to allow for assigning abilities sticky letters... that's the
            real solution.

            Invocations could be moved over to 'I', but I'd like to leave
            that command vacant for now... it might be better used for
            something else.

            // I propose we either
            // a) swap "a" with "A";
            // b) label the deity supplied abilities with lowercase letters, and
            // label the other abilities with uppercase letters.

            I'd rather not cause any more confusing by moving more commands around.

            // Similarly, "Z" (cast a spell) is usually followed by a lowercase label
            // that is relatively fixed, while "z" (zap a wand) is usually followed by
            // an inventory slot label, and inventory slot labels tend to be ephemeral.

            Inventory slot labels are hardly ephemeral unless you want
            them to be. In the case of a wand you really care about,
            you can assign it a slot and it will stick there until dropped
            (which you aren't going to do very often because to care about
            this wand). This isn't Angband... they probably would have
            fixed that inventory system by now if someone hadn't invented
            that kludge inscription system to compensate.

            // I propose we either
            // a) swap "z" with "Z";
            // b) label spells with uppercase letters.

            Well, technically we could allow the player to use either case
            if we wanted to, since we only allow spells up to 'v' anyways
            (based on maximum number of spells allowed + 1 for Selective
            Amnesia). A better system might be separating the lettering from
            the slots and allowing all 52 letters with a separate indirect
            reference table... then you could change the spells to whichever
            letter you'd like.

            Macros will certainly help with this problem, as both inventory
            and spell letters can be reliable. The only real problem here
            is non-invocation ability references and they can be fixed.

            Brent
          • Daniel Ligon
            ... All true enough, but still I wager most players use A more than a in most games. ... Ah. Excellent. ... Sadly, I had not noticed... ... Now *that* is
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 22, 2002
              On Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:31:00AM -0400, Brent Ross wrote:
              > // Here is a small interface issue.
              > //
              > // The "a" command is "use special ability". Most of the special abilities
              > // are provided by the character's deity, and are labeled with uppercase
              > // letters.
              >
              > Depends on the character. I seldom use Invocations with the
              > gods I typically play. Nagas, demonspawn, and draconians will
              > often find themselves using breathe weapons/mutations.

              All true enough, but still I wager most players use "A" more than "a"
              in most games.

              > Overall,
              > once I finally finish up these macros you'll be able to put
              > Minor Destruction on tab (in fact you'll probably want to),
              > and it won't matter.

              Ah. Excellent.

              > // The label-ability mapping is also fixed, barring religious
              > // conversion. The other abilities are labeled with lowercase letters,
              > // and the labels are transient - putting on a ring of teleportation can
              > // alter the order and hence label of the abilities.
              >
              > Actually, in case you haven't noticed, I did try and order the
              > abilities to keep this sort of mess to a minimum.

              Sadly, I had not noticed...

              > Evocations
              > come at the end, so the ring of teleportation won't alter your
              > breath weapon. In the end, there's probably a larger call just
              > to allow for assigning abilities sticky letters... that's the
              > real solution.

              Now *that* is a solution.

              Another solution, tying in to the macro discussion, is to allow the
              player to provide his own mapping of characters to commands.

              > Invocations could be moved over to 'I', but I'd like to leave
              > that command vacant for now... it might be better used for
              > something else.
              >
              > // I propose we either
              > // a) swap "a" with "A";
              > // b) label the deity supplied abilities with lowercase letters, and
              > // label the other abilities with uppercase letters.
              >
              > I'd rather not cause any more confusing by moving more commands around.

              I'll admit that it seems a drastic measure, but one I believe can be
              justified.

              > // Similarly, "Z" (cast a spell) is usually followed by a lowercase label
              > // that is relatively fixed, while "z" (zap a wand) is usually followed by
              > // an inventory slot label, and inventory slot labels tend to be ephemeral.
              >
              > Inventory slot labels are hardly ephemeral unless you want
              > them to be. In the case of a wand you really care about,
              > you can assign it a slot and it will stick there until dropped
              > (which you aren't going to do very often because to care about
              > this wand).

              True enough. And I rarely use wands anyway.

              > This isn't Angband...

              Praise be. :)


              > they probably would have
              > fixed that inventory system by now if someone hadn't invented
              > that kludge inscription system to compensate.
              >
              > // I propose we either
              > // a) swap "z" with "Z";
              > // b) label spells with uppercase letters.
              >
              > Well, technically we could allow the player to use either case
              > if we wanted to, since we only allow spells up to 'v' anyways
              > (based on maximum number of spells allowed + 1 for Selective
              > Amnesia).

              This is an intriguing idea.

              > A better system might be separating the lettering from
              > the slots and allowing all 52 letters with a separate indirect
              > reference table... then you could change the spells to whichever
              > letter you'd like.
              >
              > Macros will certainly help with this problem, as both inventory
              > and spell letters can be reliable. The only real problem here
              > is non-invocation ability references and they can be fixed.

              --
              Daniel Ligon maglorn@...

              Bringing in the Lords of Chaos Sucking out the souls of heroes
              Bringing up the Beasts of Hades Laying waste to knights and ladies
            • Brent Ross
              // From: Daniel Ligon // On Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:31:00AM -0400, Brent Ross wrote: // // Here is a small interface issue. // // //
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 22, 2002
                // From: Daniel Ligon <maglorn@...>
                // On Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:31:00AM -0400, Brent Ross wrote:
                // > // Here is a small interface issue.
                // > //
                // > // The "a" command is "use special ability". Most of the special abilities
                // > // are provided by the character's deity, and are labeled with uppercase
                // > // letters.
                // >
                // > Depends on the character. I seldom use Invocations with the
                // > gods I typically play. Nagas, demonspawn, and draconians will
                // > often find themselves using breathe weapons/mutations.
                //
                // All true enough, but still I wager most players use "A" more than "a"
                // in most games.

                Only if they're worshipping a god with a good low level, free
                piety ability... high piety cost abilities have to be used more
                sparingly. Mutations and evocations are useful more often and
                any character can have those.

                So both are correct... it depends on the dieties and races one
                typically plays.

                // > Overall,
                // > once I finally finish up these macros you'll be able to put
                // > Minor Destruction on tab (in fact you'll probably want to),
                // > and it won't matter.
                //
                // Ah. Excellent.

                Its in testing right now... I'm thinking it might need a quick
                help screen to clarify, but I might put up pr25 before that.

                // > Actually, in case you haven't noticed, I did try and order the
                // > abilities to keep this sort of mess to a minimum.
                //
                // Sadly, I had not noticed...

                Its not an easy thing to notice without looking at the code.
                Even then it might not be apparent.

                // > Evocations
                // > come at the end, so the ring of teleportation won't alter your
                // > breath weapon. In the end, there's probably a larger call just
                // > to allow for assigning abilities sticky letters... that's the
                // > real solution.
                //
                // Now *that* is a solution.

                Almost complete. Abilities and spells now have indirect accessing
                via special tables.

                The spell table is hard linked to the old slots, since they're
                pretty much set in stone throughout the code.

                The ability table is soft linked to the ability type. This is
                because abilities are currently detected on demand... they also
                have a much larger tendancy to disappear and come back (equipment
                swapping and piety loss)... as soft links the abilities have
                a tendancy to get back their old slots. This also applies to
                the invocation slots... so if the character accidentally gets
                excommunicated and rejoins they will have their old bindings.
                It is important to note that joining a religion will cancel out
                any other gods invocations... we don't expect gods to be switched
                often and its good to keep the table. Renunciation gets a bit
                of special treatment since its shared among all gods.

                What needs to be done: the tables need to be added to the savefile.
                Oh, and a little bit more testing.

                // > // I propose we either
                // > // a) swap "a" with "A";
                // > // b) label the deity supplied abilities with lowercase letters, and
                // > // label the other abilities with uppercase letters.
                // >
                // > I'd rather not cause any more confusing by moving more commands around.
                //
                // I'll admit that it seems a drastic measure, but one I believe can be
                // justified.

                Commands can be swapped with the macro system. I tested 'z' and
                'Z' and it works fine.

                The player can shoot themselves in the foot with infinite
                expansion (just not this way). That requires doing something
                like macroing '1' to 'Zak1'. I've tried to make the system simple
                and predictable... this is unfortuanately a side-effect of that.

                Brent
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