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Re: Simon's Post

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  • gmw
    ... wrote: I m sorry that you think that I make a poor candidate for the Steelite Covenanter cheerleading squad . We got spirit, yes we do,
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 6, 2004
      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Colin "
      <cbx292000@y...> wrote:

      "I'm sorry that you think that I make a poor candidate for the
      Steelite Covenanter "cheerleading squad".

      We got spirit, yes we do, we got spirit....

      How 'bout you?

      gmw.
    • thebishopsdoom
      It is true that some of the modern debates on the issue of Reformed Presbyterians have gotten quite polemical, not just in favour of, but also against the
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 6, 2004
        It is true that some of the modern debates on the issue of Reformed
        Presbyterians have gotten quite polemical, not just in favour of, but
        also against the views of the Reformed Presbyterians.
        Perhaps it's time to take a closer look at David Steele, since so
        much of the modern controversy seems to revolve around appeals to
        him. It seems much ado has been made about Steele for a whole lot of
        nasty things.
        Despite popular opinion, Steele was not absolutely loathed by the
        RPCNA in his day as a minister among them. J.R. Willson had
        handpicked him for a professorship at RPTS (while the controversy
        with Synod was ongoing in which Steele had taken a part), and had
        promised Steele that he already had the votes to get him in as co-
        professor. Steele declined, because he felt he was not adequately
        prepared for a professorship at that time. (This is incidentally
        notably absent from the book on RPTS history, Spare No Exertions.) He
        was during that time also called to be minister in one of the
        congregations in the Pittsburgh area, though he had declined the call
        at that time. Yes, Steele for his leaving synod did accrue some
        strong opponents in the RPCNA. But the view some of them had of him
        was not universal.
        Despite some polemical language used of a few ministers who he
        believed weree engineering what became the New Light split, and a few
        others afterwards who he believed were attempting to bring the Old
        Lights down the same road - talk of former brethren, false brethren,
        and the like, David Steele did not as a rule speak of people in that
        way, either within nor without the RPCNA. Even "false brethren"
        didn't mean "false Christian" (as some appear to have assumed) but
        rather the falsity was with claiming to be fellow covenanters when
        the persons in question were attacking the views expressed in the
        standrads themselves. In particular, it might be noted that Steele
        late in life mentioned that he never ceased all the while to regard
        Willson Sr as a godly man upon whom he had no known quarrels (in
        spite of the fact that Willson did not feel compelled to leave when
        Steele, Lusk, and several ruling elders determined just cause to
        dissent from synod). In some of the issues of the magazines edited by
        Steele, it mentions some of his travels, both preaching and
        vacations. In there you find that Steele was granted by various RPCNA
        ministers the allowance to use their buildings to preach a sermon
        while in the area. The UPC allowed members to attend Mr. Steele's
        preaching. Steele preached to vacant congregations of the RPCS and
        RPCI in Ireland and Scotland by request of the people, and in one
        case was asked to consider a call to be their pastor. In this, he
        declined, stating that he would have to join with the RPCI to do so,
        and he could not in good conscience join them in the present
        constitutional state that they were in. No talk of "you wicked
        covenant breaking apostates," no talk of "come with me and flee
        babylon" or anything like that. He did not encourage people to leave
        their churches if unconvinced with the covenanter side of the church
        splits, though he encouraged people to consider the issues, and
        inform themselves of why the churches had so broken up. If they were
        convinced, and wished to transfer themselves under care of their
        presbytery (or later, general meeting), they were free to do so. If
        they did not fully understand the issues, but did enough to desire to
        transfer over to the reformed presbytery with a willingness to be
        instructed, he would not turn them back, though they were not made
        communicants without attaining some knowledge of the reason for the
        church's existence as a separate branch of the presbyterian church.
        It seems from my knowledge of him that if any were to ask about what
        problem Steele had with their church, he would certainly oblige to
        explain as best he could the causes of splits in the church and why
        they existed as a distinct church and did not agree to the routes
        taken in the other splits, believing them to have introduced error
        into the churches and broken off from the root. Undoubtedly if they
        did not agree or were unsure, he would have encouraged the inquisitor
        to continue considering these things as they progressed in their
        understanding of the faith. This is at least the picture of David
        Steele that I have gotten from the materials I have read with
        firsthand accounts. It also agrees with the fact that the Associate
        Presbyterian magazine actually published one of his articles that
        addressed an in-house issue going on at the time among the Associate
        Presbyterians, giving his take on the controversy. I don't see they
        would have done that if he was supposedly so universally viewed as a
        theological or ecclesiastical monster.
        In one of the articles concerning Steele's travels, in one of the
        covenanter magazines, he mentions a man coming up to him after
        sermon. Steele recognized him as a former congressman who was an old
        neighbor of his. He mentions the person as having been a member of
        the Methodist church, and also states (Steele was authoring the
        article) about the man being a friend of his and old neighbor whom he
        hadn't seen in a long time. Steele gladly obliged his friend's
        request to lodge at his home for some time. This at the least shows
        that Steele was able to do what most people can do, hold friendships
        with those he disagrees with. Something I think some people in the
        way they paint Steele can not conceive of.
        David Steele also took to task elder J.J. Peoples of the reformed
        Presbytery for vitriolic language in expressing his views on
        political dissent.

        I will conclude by merely quoting a bio of Steele from a secular book:

        The REVEREND DAVID STEELE was ordained and installed as the third
        pastor of the Brush Creek Presbyterian Community Church of Adams
        County, Ohio on June 24, 1831. Brush Creek is an historic
        congregation due to church disputes over dogma.
        Dr. Steele was among the early settlers of Adams County, Ohio.
        Several members of his family followed him west from Pennsylvania. He
        was born in Londonderry, Ireland, November 2, 1803 of scotch-Irish
        ancestry. He was the the youngest of six brothers, whose father,
        David Steele, was the fourth generation from Captain John Steele of
        Lismahago, near Glascow, Scotland who fought on the side of the
        Covenanters in the battle of Drumclog, June 22, 1679. He was trained
        up according to the strict order of observance in Covenanting
        families. When he was about 20 years old he emigrated to the United
        States, arriving in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, June 7, 1824, where
        he stayed with an uncle and pursued his classical studies. Later on
        he taught in Edinburg Academy in Pennsylvania.
        In 1826 he was graduated from Western University of Pennsylvania and
        after studying theology with the late Dr. John Black of Pittsburg,
        Pennsylvania, he was licensed to preach the Gospel in April 1830. The
        following year he married Miss Eliza Johnson of Chillicothe, Ohio and
        one month afterward was ordained and installed as pastor of the
        Reformed Congregation of Brush Creek by the Ohio Presbytery at a
        salary of $400 a year.
        Brush Creek was then a wilderness and he and his wife found
        everything primitive and uncongenial to educated and refined living.
        Thousands of miles he travelled on horse-back yearly, having often to
        ford rivers when he had to get up on his knees in the saddle to keep
        from being saturated with water as there were few bridges in those
        days. For 29 years he labored in this congregation upon a salary
        hardly sufficient to procure the necessities of life. He also took
        care of several other community churches - one being Mill Creek,
        Kentucky.
        Although a little below medium in stature, he possessed an excellent
        constitution which enabled him to bare up under difficulties which
        would have been too great for others.
        As a scholar Dr. Steele was far above most of his compeers,
        particularly in the ancient classics as he could read the most
        difficult Latin and Greek at sight. His "Notes on the Apocalypse"
        show he was a master of Bible truth. He trained quite a number of
        young men for the Gospel ministry; and his home was the resort of all
        educated people who came to the neighborhood, and hospitality was a
        marked feature of his house.
        It is but proper to state that his wife cooperated heartily with him
        in all his plans for the elevation and culture of all who dwelt in
        the vicinity of Brush Creek. Brush Creek owes much to him as a leader
        in morality and culture.
        As an orator the Reverend David Steele was concise, clear and
        frequently eloquent and impassioned and his discrimination in the use
        of words showed his mastery of the English language. He received the
        Doctor of Divinity degree from his Alma Mater a few years before his
        death.
        After leaving Ohio he spent several years near Sparta, Illinois,
        retiring to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where he died in the 54th
        year of his ministry at the age of eighty-four. His remains lie in
        the Petersburg Cemetery in Huntington, Pennsylvania.
        -Taken from A History of Adams County, Ohio by Evans and Stivers

        -thebishopsdoom
      • s.padbury@tiscali.co.uk
        I accept your hand of genuine Christian Fellowship. Thankyou Colin, but I guess I either forgt about that part, or else I didn t think it was worth anything
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 8, 2004
          "I accept your hand of genuine Christian Fellowship."

          Thankyou Colin, but I guess I either forgt about that part, or else I didn't
          think it was worth anything since you refuse to retract your repeated references
          to me as wicked and ungodly and slanderous.

          You say we might not be so far apart as I might think. That may be true
          in some of the outcomes, but we arrive at them by distinctly different routes.
          But at least you're backing off from suggesting that I am somewhat an antinomian
          or a dispensationalist now.

          As for raking through past posts and engading you in these matters again,
          I can't be bothered, sorry. I've had enough of debating with (some!) Theonomists,
          because of their abusive language.

          But I do admit that you are not as bad as some in that respect, and I appreciate
          that.

          Simon.

          __________________________________________________
          Broadband from an unbeatable £15.99!

          http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/home.html?code=SM-NL-11AM
        • gmw
          ... There is nothing new under the sun. It is sinful man s nature to say sinful things towards those with whom we disagree. Thanks for this informative post.
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 9, 2004
            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, thebishopsdoom
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:

            > It is true that some of the modern debates on the issue of Reformed
            > Presbyterians have gotten quite polemical, not just in favour of,
            > but also against the views of the Reformed Presbyterians.

            There is nothing new under the sun. It is sinful man's nature to say
            sinful things towards those with whom we disagree. Thanks for this
            informative post.

            I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the present topic or
            not, but the following are objections and answers taken from A Short
            Vindication of Our Covenanted Reformation, published by a commitee of
            the Reformed Presbytery, Philadelphia, 1879 (the objections sound
            familiar, and the answers are refreshing):

            ---
            1. "You think nobody right but yourselves." Just so; that is, in the
            points wherein others differ from us; otherwise we will only proclaim
            our own hypocrisy. We believe, and therefore speak.

            2. "You think nobody will be saved but such as adopt your peculiar
            principles." This is an old objection. It was "cast in the teeth" of
            one of our martyred ministers, Mr. Donald Cargil, as he was "led as a
            lamb to the slaughter." He meekly answered, "No." "Well, and what
            more would you want than to be saved?" "I want a great deal more,"
            was his simple reply, "I want Christ glorified on earth." He
            understood the first question of the Shorter Catechism, of which too
            many are ignorant to-day. "Man's chief end is neither his salvation
            nor destruction." Rev. 4:11.

            3. "Your principles are impracticable." If they are scriptural the
            objection is true in one sense, but false in another. Our Saviour
            told his real disciples—"Without me (separated from me) ye can do
            nothing." Jno. 15:5. This was Paul's experience (Rom. 7:18), and he
            tells us that this is part of all believers' experience. Gal. 5:17.
            On the other hand, if our distinctive principles are scriptural, as
            we believe them to be, they are certainly practicable to a true
            believer; for of such no impossibilities are required. 2 Cor. 12:9;
            Phil. 4:13.

            4. "You meddle with political matters;—preach the gospel and let
            civil government alone." We often meet this objection under the form
            of friendly advice; and we believe none is of deeper significance or
            more pregnant with consequences. (a) It confounds politics and civil
            government. (b) It separates between the gospel and civil government.
            (c) It excludes the Bible and its Author from the commonwealth. (d)
            It conducts us to infidelity and issues in blank atheism. But this
            objection involving, as it does, so much both of principle and
            practice, demands more consideration and a particular and
            intelligible answer. It is not true that we meddle with politics; for
            a Covenanter can affiliate with no existing political party because
            no party will consent to be governed by the Bible. The gospel, as we
            understand it, covers the whole of the Scriptures. Gen. 18:18, Gal.
            3:8, Heb. 4:2. It is "another gospel" which excludes any part of the
            Bible. That we may be more fully understood, we assert that the Holy
            Scriptures are the only infallible rule to direct mankind in
            individual and social life: that all the lawful relations of this
            life are instituted, defined and limited in the Bible. We find in the
            Sacred Oracles that God has organized society in three, and only
            three departments, both for its conservation and reformation. These
            are the family, the church, and the state, the two latter being
            auxiliaries of the first—the church and civil commonwealth to be
            helpful to the family. The plain lesson of history and experience is,
            that insubordination in the family generates contumacy in the church,
            and issues in insurrection and rebellion in the state. If there be
            no "church in the house," there will be no godliness in the church,
            nor honesty without godliness in the state. To effect a real
            reformation then, these three divine ordinances are the proper
            instrumentalities to be employed—and no other. These have the promise
            of their Author to render them effectual. Prov. 22:6; 1 Tim. 4:16;
            Josh. 1:8. Of course, we cannot co-operate in the voluntary and
            irresponsible confederacies of our time, having but one condition of
            fellowship, and demanding a pledge of fidelity. To ask or give such
            pledge involves an insult offered to our Master, to whom alone our
            pledge has been previously given, that we will be governed by that
            law in His hand, which commands every duty and forbids every sin in
            all our relations. According to our interpretation of the gospel,
            therefore, we must have scriptural and definite views of the divine
            ordinance of civil government, while we do not "meddle with politics"—
            earth's party politics, which disregard the Lord, His Anointed and
            His word.

            5. "You will admit none to your communion but those who adopt your
            peculiar principles: and does it not follow that you account none to
            be Christians but yourselves? All others, by your close communion,
            you would shut out of heaven." We have given this objection in
            greater fulness than the preceding ones, because of the frequency and
            plausibility of its utterance by the generality of professors. Well,
            we readily admit the truth of the first part of the objection: but in
            the practice of restricted fellowship we are not peculiar, and we
            think consistency, common sense and honesty, justify this part of
            Christian practice. Nor does this practise involve a denial of the
            Christianity or meetness for heaven of any others. This part of the
            objection denies, or at least confounds the necessary distinction
            between the visible and invisible state of the church—an error which
            is logically followed by many others. Consistently with our
            distinctive principles and practice, which alone exemplify true
            charity, as we sincerely believe, we doubt not many are now in heaven
            and also on earth, partakers of the "common salvation," who never
            heard of Covenanters. And, moreover, Covenanters have always, in
            private intercourse, been ready to embrace in their heart's
            affections, all who in their judgment love God in Christ. This they
            do on the principle that "every one that loveth Him that begat loveth
            Him also that is begotten of Him." 1 Jno 5:1. But this private and
            occasional intercourse the Scriptures distinguish from public,
            ecclesiastical fellowship; and Covenanters endeavor to act according
            to that supreme rule. They cannot, therefore, at the same time,
            consistently testify against the errors and sins of parties, and
            appear under an official or judicial banner as one with them. "If any
            man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple,
            shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat
            those things which are offered to idols?" 1 Cor. 8:10.—Not that we
            charge all others with idolatry: but there is a rule in Logic which
            the learned acknowledge to be correct, Majus et minus non variant
            speciem,—"greater or less does not vary the nature of a thing." And
            we are enjoined to "mark them which cause divisions and offences
            contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them, Rom.
            16:17: as also to "withdraw ourselves from every brother that walketh
            disorderly"—yes, though a brother. 2 Thes. 3:6; 1 Tim. 3:5. No, no,
            we are not uncharitable. While hating Pharisaic exclusiveness, we no
            less dislike the spurious charity that "suffers sin upon a brother"
            without rebuke. Lev. 19:17; Tit. 1:13.

            ---
            gmw.
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