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Re: my bio, my thanx, my question

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  • thebishopsdoom
    ... Some of us know a thing or two about female internet stalkers asking a lot of mormon related questions. (Ain t that right GMW? wink, wink, nudge, nudge.)
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 16, 2004
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      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "arline"
      <covenantmama@m...> wrote:
      > I originally had an email prepared to send one of you brilliant
      > types, asking a Mormon related question, but I figured the guy will
      > think I'm an internet stalker & I better just post the question for
      > all of you.
      Some of us know a thing or two about female internet stalkers asking
      a lot of mormon related questions. (Ain't that right GMW? wink, wink,
      nudge, nudge.)

      >Is this an issue of
      > Mormons not 'getting it' a Spiritual, or intellectual one? Is this
      > too abstract a way to witness to them?
      I think it is probably both. On the one hand, one need not be
      surprised by a spiritual blindness, on the other hand, not everyone
      is ready and able to grasp a philosophical question, even if you try
      to boil down in what to you seems like simpler terms.
      The problem with the mormons is that unlike the Watchtower Society,
      for example, they don't seem to make any claim to accept the Bible
      wholeheartedly. Nor do they like liberal theology just decide to pick
      and choose what they like, where you might hit them with what basis
      they accept one thing as divine if they reject another. Instead, it
      seems to me (from what exposure I've had) that they hold the Bible to
      have been at some point corrupted, and the "divine revelation" of the
      Books of Mormon, the Pearl, and Doctrines and Covenants, as well as
      the "apostolic" and prophetic leadership of whoever happens to be
      their current "pope" as it were (think it's still Hinckley
      currently), leads them to accept certain Scriptures as accurate, and
      others as having been tainted over time, based on their agreement
      with the word of their cult, which they hold as divinely revealed,
      and thus to them, trustworthy if it corrects ancient texts that were
      allegedly corrupted over time. So with some of them at least, it may
      be difficult in that they might be prone to resort to a "the Bible
      was early on corrupted and God fixed that by revealing the truth to
      Smith and the mormon prophets" type of argument to get out of an
      exegetical knot. This is just my impression. I don't have a whole lot
      of experience dealing directly with mormon apologetics. They don't
      tend to stop at my door (I usually get people from the Watchtower
      Society - though they seemed to have stopped coming as well a few
      years ago). I've read some materials on mormonism, but because I
      haven't dealt with them directly, I can't speak much for dealing with
      them directly. I would like to suggest what I feel are some decent
      resources that may be helpful in dealing with them tho. I recommend
      these as far as they address mormonism, some are not necessarily
      reformed in their doctrinal outlook, so I won't vouch 100% for
      everything you might bump into, but a number of resources they have
      may be helpful in one way or another.
      First, Alpha and Omega has some stuff on mormonism, some of which
      deals more particularly with doctrinal issues:
      http://aomin.org/Mormonism.html There you will find in particular
      a "100 verse Bible memory system" for witnessing to mormons,
      introducing you to some Bible verses both good for apologetics in
      general, and also for dealing with mormons in particular, and how to
      use the verses - http://aomin.org/MEMVER.html. I'll admit I'm
      horrible at rote memorization myself and should take note of some of
      his hints for Bible memorization. I wish I had more scripture
      committed to memory. There are a number of other helpful essays, and
      you might in particular find the Letters to a Mormon Elder helpful.
      James White is also a reformed baptist, which means at the very least
      that he's calvinistic. And he's also had a number of refereed public
      debates with mormon apologists.
      http://www.utlm.org/ - this is Utah Lighthouse Ministry, operated by
      the Tanners. I don't know much about the Tanners except when dealing
      with mormon apologetics it seems their name quite often comes up.
      They offer several resources on mormon history, including forgeries,
      massacres, changes in doctrines, changes in the Book of Mormon, etc.,
      as well as some general articles on Mormon beliefs.
      http://www.utlm.org/navtopicalindex.htm is a topical listing of where
      to find info on specific things, with links to materials in the
      newsletters, articles, and online books available at their site.
      http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html is Mormons in Transition. Have
      some resources that seem of interest. Mainly seem to center on
      credentials of certain foundational Mormon claims about the book of
      Mormon and Joseph Smith. It's from the Institute for Religious
      Research. They proclaim to be a nondenominational group.
      Lastly, apart from any general anti-cult books you might find dealing
      with mormonism, there was a book put out by Cambridge Univ. press
      called The Refiner's Fire: the Making of Mormon Cosmology 1644-1844,
      by John L. Brooks. Secular book on the origins of mormonism and some
      of their history. I don't know how much of it will be helpful in
      addressing to mormons directly, but it should be helpful in getting a
      better grasp of where they are coming from - what movements helped to
      develop into what became mormonism at the hands of Joseph Smith. I
      don't always agree 100% with all the author's analysis of everything,
      but it makes for a fascinating read and might give some helpful
      insight into how they became what they became. You might find it in
      your local library. Apart from being an interesting book, I certainly
      wouldn't recommend it as anything like an "essential" resource for
      someone casually dealing with mormons, but if someone were dealing
      with them all the time and wanted a better understanding of the
      religious roots and backgrounds of mormonism, a perusal of this book
      may be helpful.
      -doom
    • Dan Fraas
      James White is also a reformed baptist, which means at the very least that he s calvinistic. And he s also had a number of refereed public debates with mormon
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 16, 2004
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        "James White is also a reformed baptist, which means at the very least
        that he's calvinistic. And he's also had a number of refereed public
        debates with mormon apologists."

        My church hosts these debates. You may listen to some of Dr. White's
        past debates online on our website:

        http://www.christpres.net/debateaudio.htm

        Next month we're inviting Dr. White to do one debate on Mormon
        Temples and one on same-sex marriages at the Uni of Utah.

        For Christ's Crown and Covenant!

        Riley

        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, thebishopsdoom
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "arline"
        > <covenantmama@m...> wrote:
        > > I originally had an email prepared to send one of you
        brilliant
        > > types, asking a Mormon related question, but I figured the guy
        will
        > > think I'm an internet stalker & I better just post the question
        for
        > > all of you.
        > Some of us know a thing or two about female internet stalkers
        asking
        > a lot of mormon related questions. (Ain't that right GMW? wink,
        wink,
        > nudge, nudge.)
        >
        > >Is this an issue of
        > > Mormons not 'getting it' a Spiritual, or intellectual one? Is
        this
        > > too abstract a way to witness to them?
        > I think it is probably both. On the one hand, one need not be
        > surprised by a spiritual blindness, on the other hand, not everyone
        > is ready and able to grasp a philosophical question, even if you
        try
        > to boil down in what to you seems like simpler terms.
        > The problem with the mormons is that unlike the Watchtower Society,
        > for example, they don't seem to make any claim to accept the Bible
        > wholeheartedly. Nor do they like liberal theology just decide to
        pick
        > and choose what they like, where you might hit them with what basis
        > they accept one thing as divine if they reject another. Instead, it
        > seems to me (from what exposure I've had) that they hold the Bible
        to
        > have been at some point corrupted, and the "divine revelation" of
        the
        > Books of Mormon, the Pearl, and Doctrines and Covenants, as well as
        > the "apostolic" and prophetic leadership of whoever happens to be
        > their current "pope" as it were (think it's still Hinckley
        > currently), leads them to accept certain Scriptures as accurate,
        and
        > others as having been tainted over time, based on their agreement
        > with the word of their cult, which they hold as divinely revealed,
        > and thus to them, trustworthy if it corrects ancient texts that
        were
        > allegedly corrupted over time. So with some of them at least, it
        may
        > be difficult in that they might be prone to resort to a "the Bible
        > was early on corrupted and God fixed that by revealing the truth to
        > Smith and the mormon prophets" type of argument to get out of an
        > exegetical knot. This is just my impression. I don't have a whole
        lot
        > of experience dealing directly with mormon apologetics. They don't
        > tend to stop at my door (I usually get people from the Watchtower
        > Society - though they seemed to have stopped coming as well a few
        > years ago). I've read some materials on mormonism, but because I
        > haven't dealt with them directly, I can't speak much for dealing
        with
        > them directly. I would like to suggest what I feel are some decent
        > resources that may be helpful in dealing with them tho. I recommend
        > these as far as they address mormonism, some are not necessarily
        > reformed in their doctrinal outlook, so I won't vouch 100% for
        > everything you might bump into, but a number of resources they have
        > may be helpful in one way or another.
        > First, Alpha and Omega has some stuff on mormonism, some of which
        > deals more particularly with doctrinal issues:
        > http://aomin.org/Mormonism.html There you will find in particular
        > a "100 verse Bible memory system" for witnessing to mormons,
        > introducing you to some Bible verses both good for apologetics in
        > general, and also for dealing with mormons in particular, and how
        to
        > use the verses - http://aomin.org/MEMVER.html. I'll admit I'm
        > horrible at rote memorization myself and should take note of some
        of
        > his hints for Bible memorization. I wish I had more scripture
        > committed to memory. There are a number of other helpful essays,
        and
        > you might in particular find the Letters to a Mormon Elder helpful.
        > James White is also a reformed baptist, which means at the very
        least
        > that he's calvinistic. And he's also had a number of refereed
        public
        > debates with mormon apologists.
        > http://www.utlm.org/ - this is Utah Lighthouse Ministry, operated
        by
        > the Tanners. I don't know much about the Tanners except when
        dealing
        > with mormon apologetics it seems their name quite often comes up.
        > They offer several resources on mormon history, including
        forgeries,
        > massacres, changes in doctrines, changes in the Book of Mormon,
        etc.,
        > as well as some general articles on Mormon beliefs.
        > http://www.utlm.org/navtopicalindex.htm is a topical listing of
        where
        > to find info on specific things, with links to materials in the
        > newsletters, articles, and online books available at their site.
        > http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html is Mormons in Transition. Have
        > some resources that seem of interest. Mainly seem to center on
        > credentials of certain foundational Mormon claims about the book of
        > Mormon and Joseph Smith. It's from the Institute for Religious
        > Research. They proclaim to be a nondenominational group.
        > Lastly, apart from any general anti-cult books you might find
        dealing
        > with mormonism, there was a book put out by Cambridge Univ. press
        > called The Refiner's Fire: the Making of Mormon Cosmology 1644-
        1844,
        > by John L. Brooks. Secular book on the origins of mormonism and
        some
        > of their history. I don't know how much of it will be helpful in
        > addressing to mormons directly, but it should be helpful in getting
        a
        > better grasp of where they are coming from - what movements helped
        to
        > develop into what became mormonism at the hands of Joseph Smith. I
        > don't always agree 100% with all the author's analysis of
        everything,
        > but it makes for a fascinating read and might give some helpful
        > insight into how they became what they became. You might find it in
        > your local library. Apart from being an interesting book, I
        certainly
        > wouldn't recommend it as anything like an "essential" resource for
        > someone casually dealing with mormons, but if someone were dealing
        > with them all the time and wanted a better understanding of the
        > religious roots and backgrounds of mormonism, a perusal of this
        book
        > may be helpful.
        > -doom
      • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
        Arline, Hi! I have a similiar background as you do. I rebelled against the Popery of my Dad and the 7th Day Adventism of my Mom and delved into Satanism. I
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 16, 2004
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          Arline,

          Hi! I have a similiar background as you do. I rebelled against
          the Popery of my Dad and the 7th Day Adventism of my Mom and delved
          into Satanism. I listened to Death Metal: Slayer,Venom,Merciful Fate,
          King Dimond, Death, Dark Angel, Deicide, etc. Played with spells as
          well. I grew up in San Francisco, CA and therefore knew about Anton
          LaVey, even read his "Satanic Bible", yeah talk about blasphemous
          junk! Also got into some of the Temple Of Set, Anton's rival Satanic
          coven...

          Anyways, by God's grace here I am, a Covenanter and member of the
          RPNA. I too have dealt with Mormons and JWs, I tend to actually look
          for them to evangelize them and hold them up so that they don't
          spread their junk.

          What GMW suggested is what I have found to be effective and in
          accord with Scripture. Talk about the Gospel. Only by them being
          spiritually alive will they be able to discern the spiritual and
          hence understand about the deity of Christ. The Gospel is the power
          of God unto salvation. Challenge them with grace against their works
          and stick to passages such as Romans 4, Ephsians 2 and etc. These
          passages are very simple to demonstrate that salvation is only by
          grace.

          Arlene, continue to fight the good fight!!!

          yours in Christ,

          Edgar Ibarra
          www.albanycrpc.org




          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "arline"
          <covenantmama@m...> wrote:
          > I love reading the daily email I get from this group which has
          > all the postings, I figured I'd never post. I'm a homeschooling
          > housewife, not a brilliant theologian, elder, or pastor. (But I've
          > learned a ton from you guys, thanx.)
          > I originally had an email prepared to send one of you brilliant
          > types, asking a Mormon related question, but I figured the guy will
          > think I'm an internet stalker & I better just post the question for
          > all of you. Here's my bio:
          > I was born into a Roman Catholic (RC from now on) home, I
          > detested the hypocrisy & by God's grace, was far more cynical of RC
          > theology than a normal kid. This got me into tons of trouble at
          > home, and I responded sinfully by rejecting this version of god &
          > becoming a devil worshipper.
          > All of satanism is based on the lie that the RC mass is true &
          > acceptable worship of God, so in my rejecting RC'osism in favor of
          > satanism, all I was doing was trading one apostate form of worship
          > for an imitation of it, which I detested. Too much of the same
          > thing.
          > The literature for devil worshippers is poorly written, as if
          > idiots alone like to read about worshipping the devil, in order, I
          > suspect, to have as broad an appeal as possible, with throw-away
          one
          > liners that were probably ghost written for Anton LaVey by people
          > who write horoscopes for a living. This is what God used to get me
          > disenchanted with satanism.
          > Next came "the cult years", & rejecting Christ as God. Then one
          > day God in His sovereign providence sent me a real, live Christian,
          > not just one who claimed to be one. She showed me where Christ in
          > His Word claimed Deity, John 8:58 & Ex 3:14.
          > Skip forward a few years, I was one day invited to church, a
          > solid, Psalm singing Reformed Church, where they were faithful to
          > share the Gospel with me although I had at this point, a pretty
          > Christian- looking life: I was a home schooling heathen, who knew
          > the Bible & referred to it all the time & could talk about God all
          > day long, but if you tried to pin me down about Christ, it became
          > obvious I didn't know what I was talking about.
          > One day I was reading the Westminster Larger Catechism's
          section
          > on the 10 commandments & was stunned to learn there are other
          things
          > besides devil worship that God considers sinful. At that instant in
          > time, I suddenly understood my sin before a holy God, the Gospel
          > made perfect sense to me as the only way to deal with my sin, and
          > Acts 9:18 is the only way I can describe my conversion. One second
          > prior to that I was dead in my sins, thinking Christianity was
          > entirely based on how someone's life looked like on the outside;
          > suddenly I was blessed with an understanding of the truth, that in
          > Christ was a relationship w/ God based on His atonement for me,
          > because we are all so dreadfully horrid on the inside.
          >
          > Now for my question. In my town in the midwest is a ton of
          > Mormons, for some reason. God in His Ephesians 2:10'ing of me has
          > given me the desire to witness to them (& other cult ppl).
          > With the way they define diety, as pertains to Christ,
          obviously
          > it's not true Diety, as defined by the economic & ontological roles
          > of the Trinity. They claim they believe He is God, but the way they
          > define the word "God", shows they think He is just a guy like
          us.
          > But when I start jabbering away about how a version of Christ that
          > doesn't share God's attributes, using Van Til's
          > argument that when we die we will never become omniscient,
          > omnipresent, etc. therefore, not "gods" the way they claim Christ
          > is, I just lose 'em. They just have no clue what I'm talking about.
          > If I don't get into explaining proper theology, they at least are
          > able to depart understanding why they disagree with me. But as soon
          > as I go this 'theological definition & argument over terms' way,
          > they no longer understand what on earth I'm jabbering away about.
          > But, to agree with them (by not addressing their wrong definition
          of
          > god as pertains to Christ) I don't feel I'm properly witnessing to
          > them, but aiding & abetting them in their sin.
          > I'm a die hard Calvinist, by God's grace, I know if someone is
          > the elect, they will convert in spite of me or anyone else's
          > imperfect attempts. This isn't a question of 'what's the most
          > effective way to evangelize Mormons', it's: Is this an issue of
          > Mormons not 'getting it' a Spiritual, or intellectual one? Is this
          > too abstract a way to witness to them? Or is it just 2 Corin 2:15-
          16.
          > (I don't mention Van Til, big theological words, the
          > word, "Ontological" never comes up even once, etc. I do try to keep
          > it simple)
          > Thanx for your help.
          > (& thanx for the update on how the poetry reading went! So exciting
          > to hear of soft hearted Mormons!)
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