Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Covenanting.

Expand Messages
  • gmw
    ... No problem at all. If I can refresh your memory as well, I consider myself a novice, and believe that others are far more qualified to comment than
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 3, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Peter"
      <GrayPJ@c...> wrote:
      > Thanks for the help and I'm sorry for being delinquent in replying
      > to your post.

      No problem at all. If I can refresh your memory as well, I consider
      myself a novice, and believe that others are far more qualified to
      comment than myself. But I'll give it my best shot.

      > My trouble is finding a connection between Britain and present day
      > America.... Your answers to my objections were sufficient so I will
      > concede- at the time of the signing, the colonies were put under
      > the Covenant and up until 100 years ago the people were still.

      Ok, then I will not endeavor to prove that which has been conceded,
      that the American Colonies were under the Covenant when originally
      sworn. The article did place much emphasis on the British descent of
      the American people, which is important, but not the only point. The
      Covenant was a national covenant, and an ecclesiastical covenant.
      Our view is that America as a nation, and not simply as a collection
      of folks with English blood, is bound, and will be bound, until she
      ceases to exist. Why? Because if, as you concede, America was bound
      up until 100 years ago, then she still is bound, for she is still
      America, daughter of England. When it was time to lay the foundation
      of this nation, and America rejected the establishment of a Reformed
      and Presbyterian Church, she did so sinfully, for she was bound by
      Covenant to do so. Likewise, the Churches in this nation which
      refuse to reform themselves according to the agreed upon standards,
      are refusing the Covenant as well.

      The following are some considerations taken from an article on
      Covenanting found here:
      http://www.covenanter.org/RPCNA/testimonyforpubliccov.htm

      ---

      1. The Solemn League and Covenant was one vow in which the members of
      the church and citizens of the state were bound inseparably, though
      distinctly; and whom any principle of the covenant binds, the whole
      binds; because it cannot be divided. "What God hath joined together,
      let no man put asunder."

      2. As God is one party, the Covenanter who emigrates, is after
      emigration, still within the dominions of him "who is King of Kings
      and Lord of Lords." Those who have come into the United States, since
      the taking of the covenants, are as really under the kingly authority
      of Christ, as they were in Great Britain; for he is "the Lord of the
      whole earth."

      3. The covenant of the British empire was renewed by the New-England
      Puritan Pilgrims, in the year 1644, by which they and all their
      descendants became formally bound.

      4. The colonies, at the time of entering into the Solemn League and
      Covenant, were an integral part of the British nation. They held
      their lands under the crown, and were governed by deputies of the
      throne, whom they acknowledged as their governors. The Boston
      renovation, demonstrates that they held themselves bound by the
      federal deed of the Lords and Commons, in 1643.

      5. The old Congress of 1774, solemnly claimed for themselves, and for
      the people of the colonies whom they represented "all the rights and
      immunities of British Citizens." (See Marshall's Life of Washington.)
      The most excellent part of their birthright and immunities, was, that
      they inherited a title to the covenant blessings of their ancestors,
      who entered into federal relations with the God of Israel. It may be
      said in reply to this, that they did not intend to claim the covenant
      birthright. It is admitted that they did not, and that in doing, so,
      they committed a great sin. Men often do things, when they do not
      understand their own transactions, as the Assyrian king fulfilled the
      counsel of the Lord, although "he meant not so, nor did his heart
      think so." Isa. 10:7.

      6. The land has been blessed remarkably in temporal good things,
      notwithstanding it "has deeply revolted;" as God showed favor to
      Israel even when grossly offending him, by their abominable
      idolatries. "To any nation," except Israel, "never he such favor did
      afford." And we may say of our land, as David did of Israel, "Thou
      shewedst them favor." Psal. 44:3.

      7. All nations are under the covenant made with Noah, notwithstanding
      they are dispersed over all the earth. All see the rainbow—and all
      enjoy "summer and winter, cold and heat, seed time and harvest, day
      and night," in fulfillment of the covenant made with their common
      ancestor.

      8. The ten tribes, cast out into far countries, are still bound by
      their national covenant. The dispersed of Judah are also bound by the
      same bond, dispersed as they are over Asia, Africa, Europe and
      America. "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall
      assemble the outcasts of Israel and the dispersed of Judah; to it
      shall the Gentiles seek, and his rest shall be glorious." Isa. 11:12.
      God promises to be a little sanctuary to them in the lands whither
      they are scattered. "Thus saith the Lord God, although I have cast
      them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them
      among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in
      the countries where they shall come." Ezek. 11:6. They are farther
      remote from the land of their fathers' sepulchres, than we of this
      country, are from the British Isles; and yet the God of their father
      Jacob, acknowledges their outward covenant, relation to him.

      9. The people of Judah and Benjamin were not released from their
      covenant obligations, during their captivity in Babylon.

      10. This is the doctrine of our Declaration and Testimony. "Covenants
      entered into by an individual or a community, continue binding upon,
      those who enter into them, either personally, or by their
      representatives, so long as such persons live, unless the covenants
      have limited their duration to a certain period." (Reformation
      Principles, p. 107.). This doctrine is proved from Jer. 11:10, "The
      house of Israel, and the house of Judah, have broke, the covenant
      which I made with their fathers." The community of the British nation
      still exists, and many such persons still live, in the United States,
      whose fathers entered into the National Covenant of Scotland, and
      into "the Solemn League and Covenant of the three kingdoms of
      Scotland, England and Ireland."
      This is no more than a specimen of the ample testimony that might be
      adduced to prove, both the perpetuity of the national covenants and
      their descending obligation. We trust no one will ask more to
      demonstrate that the ground which the Reformed Presbyterian church
      occupies has not been taken rashly.

      While under obligations so solemn, ratified by the most holy
      sanctions, endeared to us by the blood of our martyred fathers,—"men
      of whom the world was not worthy,"—and recorded in the archives of
      heaven, we must bear our testimony against a sinful nation, laden
      with iniquity, that with all the lights of divine truth, shining in
      her firmament for nearly two centuries, has neglected to recognize
      her duty, by "joining herself to the Lord in a perpetual covenant,
      not to be forgotten." O that the God of Israel may soon set the fair
      jewel of his covenant in our forehead, and make our nation "the glory
      of all lands." "He hath commanded his covenant forever; holy and
      reverend is his name." Psal. 111:9.

      ---

      The considerations above may be helpful in considering this issue of
      the obligation of the Covenant upon the U.S..

      > My second question was about the practical consequences of being
      > legally bound to the SL&C. What are the benefits: Motivation as a
      > result of fear of breaking the 2nd commandment, a reminder of your
      > Christian obligations?

      Do you mean the 3rd Commandment? Falsely swearing and covenant-
      breaking are violations of the 3rd Commandment. Of course, the
      things you mention are benefits. But the benefits envisioned in the
      Covenant are the blessings of God on Church and State, peace in the
      nation, unity in faith and practice in all the Churches in the
      nation, removal of Popery and Prelacy, etc., etc.

      > What are the penalties for not recognizing
      > the Covenants legal force? Certainly you lose the two aforesaid
      > benefits. What else?

      "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that
      forget God."

      As a result of putting the Covenant behind our back, we see not unity
      but disunity, we see Popery running wild, the displeasure of God, etc.

      Blessings to you, Peter.

      Where ya from?

      gmw.
    • seamrog1935
      ... of ... The ... collection ... bound ... I am reading Covenanted Reformation Defended Against Contemporary Schismatics , which is helpful in explaining
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 3, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        > Ok, then I will not endeavor to prove that which has been conceded,
        > that the American Colonies were under the Covenant when originally
        > sworn. The article did place much emphasis on the British descent
        of
        > the American people, which is important, but not the only point.
        The
        > Covenant was a national covenant, and an ecclesiastical covenant.
        > Our view is that America as a nation, and not simply as a
        collection
        > of folks with English blood, is bound, and will be bound, until she
        > ceases to exist. Why? Because if, as you concede, America was
        bound
        > up until 100 years ago, then she still is bound, for she is still
        > America, daughter of England.

        I am reading "Covenanted Reformation Defended Against Contemporary
        Schismatics", which is helpful in explaining American history and her
        being bound to the Covenant. Since the colonies were not all English
        in America, where stood the Spanish colony of Florida in America
        after the establishment of the Covenant? I can see how Florida and
        other non-English colonies of America are bound when they joined the
        English colonies (later the US), but between swearing of the Covenant
        and the respective colony's union with the English colonies, I'm
        having difficulty in understanding if and when the non-English
        colonies of America would be bound. At the time of the Covenant,
        there were 2 nations in one land, America. Does the Covenant bind
        geographically (Florida and other non-English colonies as well) in
        addition to nationally and genealogically?

        Whit
      • Peter
        Thank you gmw, Where as you consider yourself a novice; I consider myself many times your inferior in all respects. So let me reiterate before I respond, I
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 3, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Thank you gmw,

          Where as you consider yourself a novice; I consider myself many
          times your inferior in all respects. So let me reiterate before I
          respond, I have no knowledge of jurisprudence/Scripture. All I have
          to go by is my flawed (even among humans) reason.

          You said:
          >Because if, as you concede, America was bound
          > up until 100 years ago, then she still is bound, for she is still
          > America, daughter of England.
          I understand in many ways nations are like people, but unlike people
          I don't believe one nation can begat another! Not in this way any
          how. A nation can have a nation by the branching off of families.
          All I need is a link between colonial America and present day
          America and I can put my conscience to rest. Not that I my ears
          should be satisfied but rather that I might know my faith is not
          rested upon blind obedience to the commandments of men. I also pray
          that the Holy Spirit will lead me and keep me from the pit-falls of
          error. And that he will enable me to believe all the teachings of
          God's word, the Lord of my Conscience. In my gut I believe you are
          right. I have assumed too much on my own, I need to speak with both
          sides personally.

          > Do you mean the 3rd Commandment? Falsely swearing and covenant-
          > breaking are violations of the 3rd Commandment. Of course, the
          > things you mention are benefits. But the benefits envisioned in
          >the Covenant are the blessings of God on Church and State, peace in
          >the nation, unity in faith and practice in all the Churches in the
          > nation, removal of Popery and Prelacy, etc., etc.
          > "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that
          > forget God."
          > As a result of putting the Covenant behind our back, we see not
          >unity but disunity, we see Popery running wild, the displeasure of
          >God, etc.

          Oops. That's correct according to the Lollard/Lutheran numbering of
          the Decalogue. The things you said are the benefits/penalties of
          keeping/breaking the moral principals of the Covenant. My question
          was just about realizing/not realizing its legal authority.

          I live in S.E. PA, about an hr away from probably the RP's (& many
          other presbies) historic focal point- Philly.

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "gmw"
          <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Peter"
          > <GrayPJ@c...> wrote:
          > > Thanks for the help and I'm sorry for being delinquent in
          replying
          > > to your post.
          >
          > No problem at all. If I can refresh your memory as well, I
          consider
          > myself a novice, and believe that others are far more qualified to
          > comment than myself. But I'll give it my best shot.
          >
          > > My trouble is finding a connection between Britain and present
          day
          > > America.... Your answers to my objections were sufficient so I
          will
          > > concede- at the time of the signing, the colonies were put under
          > > the Covenant and up until 100 years ago the people were still.
          >
          > Ok, then I will not endeavor to prove that which has been
          conceded,
          > that the American Colonies were under the Covenant when originally
          > sworn. The article did place much emphasis on the British descent
          of
          > the American people, which is important, but not the only point.
          The
          > Covenant was a national covenant, and an ecclesiastical covenant.
          > Our view is that America as a nation, and not simply as a
          collection
          > of folks with English blood, is bound, and will be bound, until
          she
          > ceases to exist. Why? Because if, as you concede, America was
          bound
          > up until 100 years ago, then she still is bound, for she is still
          > America, daughter of England. When it was time to lay the
          foundation
          > of this nation, and America rejected the establishment of a
          Reformed
          > and Presbyterian Church, she did so sinfully, for she was bound by
          > Covenant to do so. Likewise, the Churches in this nation which
          > refuse to reform themselves according to the agreed upon
          standards,
          > are refusing the Covenant as well.
          >
          > The following are some considerations taken from an article on
          > Covenanting found here:
          > http://www.covenanter.org/RPCNA/testimonyforpubliccov.htm
          >
          > ---
          >
          > 1. The Solemn League and Covenant was one vow in which the members
          of
          > the church and citizens of the state were bound inseparably,
          though
          > distinctly; and whom any principle of the covenant binds, the
          whole
          > binds; because it cannot be divided. "What God hath joined
          together,
          > let no man put asunder."
          >
          > 2. As God is one party, the Covenanter who emigrates, is after
          > emigration, still within the dominions of him "who is King of
          Kings
          > and Lord of Lords." Those who have come into the United States,
          since
          > the taking of the covenants, are as really under the kingly
          authority
          > of Christ, as they were in Great Britain; for he is "the Lord of
          the
          > whole earth."
          >
          > 3. The covenant of the British empire was renewed by the New-
          England
          > Puritan Pilgrims, in the year 1644, by which they and all their
          > descendants became formally bound.
          >
          > 4. The colonies, at the time of entering into the Solemn League
          and
          > Covenant, were an integral part of the British nation. They held
          > their lands under the crown, and were governed by deputies of the
          > throne, whom they acknowledged as their governors. The Boston
          > renovation, demonstrates that they held themselves bound by the
          > federal deed of the Lords and Commons, in 1643.
          >
          > 5. The old Congress of 1774, solemnly claimed for themselves, and
          for
          > the people of the colonies whom they represented "all the rights
          and
          > immunities of British Citizens." (See Marshall's Life of
          Washington.)
          > The most excellent part of their birthright and immunities, was,
          that
          > they inherited a title to the covenant blessings of their
          ancestors,
          > who entered into federal relations with the God of Israel. It may
          be
          > said in reply to this, that they did not intend to claim the
          covenant
          > birthright. It is admitted that they did not, and that in doing,
          so,
          > they committed a great sin. Men often do things, when they do not
          > understand their own transactions, as the Assyrian king fulfilled
          the
          > counsel of the Lord, although "he meant not so, nor did his heart
          > think so." Isa. 10:7.
          >
          > 6. The land has been blessed remarkably in temporal good things,
          > notwithstanding it "has deeply revolted;" as God showed favor to
          > Israel even when grossly offending him, by their abominable
          > idolatries. "To any nation," except Israel, "never he such favor
          did
          > afford." And we may say of our land, as David did of Israel, "Thou
          > shewedst them favor." Psal. 44:3.
          >
          > 7. All nations are under the covenant made with Noah,
          notwithstanding
          > they are dispersed over all the earth. All see the rainbow—and all
          > enjoy "summer and winter, cold and heat, seed time and harvest,
          day
          > and night," in fulfillment of the covenant made with their common
          > ancestor.
          >
          > 8. The ten tribes, cast out into far countries, are still bound by
          > their national covenant. The dispersed of Judah are also bound by
          the
          > same bond, dispersed as they are over Asia, Africa, Europe and
          > America. "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall
          > assemble the outcasts of Israel and the dispersed of Judah; to it
          > shall the Gentiles seek, and his rest shall be glorious." Isa.
          11:12.
          > God promises to be a little sanctuary to them in the lands whither
          > they are scattered. "Thus saith the Lord God, although I have cast
          > them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them
          > among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary
          in
          > the countries where they shall come." Ezek. 11:6. They are farther
          > remote from the land of their fathers' sepulchres, than we of this
          > country, are from the British Isles; and yet the God of their
          father
          > Jacob, acknowledges their outward covenant, relation to him.
          >
          > 9. The people of Judah and Benjamin were not released from their
          > covenant obligations, during their captivity in Babylon.
          >
          > 10. This is the doctrine of our Declaration and
          Testimony. "Covenants
          > entered into by an individual or a community, continue binding
          upon,
          > those who enter into them, either personally, or by their
          > representatives, so long as such persons live, unless the
          covenants
          > have limited their duration to a certain period." (Reformation
          > Principles, p. 107.). This doctrine is proved from Jer.
          11:10, "The
          > house of Israel, and the house of Judah, have broke, the covenant
          > which I made with their fathers." The community of the British
          nation
          > still exists, and many such persons still live, in the United
          States,
          > whose fathers entered into the National Covenant of Scotland, and
          > into "the Solemn League and Covenant of the three kingdoms of
          > Scotland, England and Ireland."
          > This is no more than a specimen of the ample testimony that might
          be
          > adduced to prove, both the perpetuity of the national covenants
          and
          > their descending obligation. We trust no one will ask more to
          > demonstrate that the ground which the Reformed Presbyterian church
          > occupies has not been taken rashly.
          >
          > While under obligations so solemn, ratified by the most holy
          > sanctions, endeared to us by the blood of our martyred fathers,—
          "men
          > of whom the world was not worthy,"—and recorded in the archives of
          > heaven, we must bear our testimony against a sinful nation, laden
          > with iniquity, that with all the lights of divine truth, shining
          in
          > her firmament for nearly two centuries, has neglected to recognize
          > her duty, by "joining herself to the Lord in a perpetual covenant,
          > not to be forgotten." O that the God of Israel may soon set the
          fair
          > jewel of his covenant in our forehead, and make our nation "the
          glory
          > of all lands." "He hath commanded his covenant forever; holy and
          > reverend is his name." Psal. 111:9.
          >
          > ---
          >
          > The considerations above may be helpful in considering this issue
          of
          > the obligation of the Covenant upon the U.S..
          >
          > > My second question was about the practical consequences of being
          > > legally bound to the SL&C. What are the benefits: Motivation as
          a
          > > result of fear of breaking the 2nd commandment, a reminder of
          your
          > > Christian obligations?
          >
          > Do you mean the 3rd Commandment? Falsely swearing and covenant-
          > breaking are violations of the 3rd Commandment. Of course, the
          > things you mention are benefits. But the benefits envisioned in
          the
          > Covenant are the blessings of God on Church and State, peace in
          the
          > nation, unity in faith and practice in all the Churches in the
          > nation, removal of Popery and Prelacy, etc., etc.
          >
          > > What are the penalties for not recognizing
          > > the Covenants legal force? Certainly you lose the two aforesaid
          > > benefits. What else?
          >
          > "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that
          > forget God."
          >
          > As a result of putting the Covenant behind our back, we see not
          unity
          > but disunity, we see Popery running wild, the displeasure of God,
          etc.
          >
          > Blessings to you, Peter.
          >
          > Where ya from?
          >
          > gmw.
        • gmw
          ... You bring up an interesting question, one that I have not concluded yet in my own mind. What of Florida and New Amsterdam? Whatever we may conclude
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 3, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, seamrog1935
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:

            > I am reading "Covenanted Reformation Defended Against Contemporary
            > Schismatics", which is helpful in explaining American history and her
            > being bound to the Covenant. Since the colonies were not all English
            > in America, where stood the Spanish colony of Florida in America
            > after the establishment of the Covenant? I can see how Florida and
            > other non-English colonies of America are bound when they joined the
            > English colonies (later the US), but between swearing of the Covenant
            > and the respective colony's union with the English colonies, I'm
            > having difficulty in understanding if and when the non-English
            > colonies of America would be bound. At the time of the Covenant,
            > there were 2 nations in one land, America. Does the Covenant bind
            > geographically (Florida and other non-English colonies as well) in
            > addition to nationally and genealogically?

            You bring up an interesting question, one that I have not concluded
            yet in my own mind. What of Florida and New Amsterdam? Whatever we
            may conclude regarding their obligation as Colonies, I think we can
            agree that once they united, they took upon themselves not only the
            benefits, but also the obligations, of the nation.

            gmw.
          • gmw
            ... What is it that happened between the time of the obligation of the Colonies, and the present day, which, biblically, ends covenant obligation? Declaring
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 3, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Peter"
              <GrayPJ@c...> wrote:

              > All I need is a link between colonial America and present day
              > America and I can put my conscience to rest.

              What is it that happened between the time of the obligation of the
              Colonies, and the present day, which, biblically, ends covenant
              obligation? Declaring Independence can't be it, because Israel and
              Judah were both bound to their covenant obligations even though they
              split. What then?

              > I live in S.E. PA, about an hr away from probably the RP's (& many
              > other presbies) historic focal point- Philly.

              I'm in Lebanon County, so perhaps one day we can discuss this over
              some coffee, or beer.

              gmw.
            • revrayjoseph
              Whit, Where did you get the book, Covenanted Reformation Defended Against Contemporary Schismatics , ? Thanks. Ray Joseph
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 3, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Whit,
                Where did you get the book, "Covenanted Reformation Defended Against
                Contemporary Schismatics", ?

                Thanks.
                Ray Joseph
              • thebishopsdoom
                ... Unless I m mistaken, they would not have been in covenant when they had still been foriegn territory, less so than even the Indians who lived in the sphere
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 3, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "gmw"
                  <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                  > You bring up an interesting question, one that I have not concluded
                  > yet in my own mind. What of Florida and New Amsterdam?

                  Unless I'm mistaken, they would not have been in covenant when they
                  had still been foriegn territory, less so than even the Indians who
                  lived in the sphere of British territory. The Indians were not under
                  covenant unless they incorporated into colonial society, at which
                  points they had all the rights, privileges, and responsibilities of
                  English citizens. Previous to that, they were separate nations,
                  living in the region of British influence and control, but treated as
                  separate national groups. There were laws limiting things they might
                  be able to do within Britsh territory, but they were for all that
                  still separate nation groups and not citizens of the colonies.
                  Likewise the Dutch, French and Spanish were separate until
                  incorporated in with the rest. Non-english / Irish / Scots/ Scots-
                  Irish / Welsh persons in the English colonies would be responsible
                  for not violating any measures passed relative to the covenant, but
                  would not become personally under covenanted obligation unless and
                  until incorporating into the body politic by being granted
                  citizenship, or else if they were taken into the membership of the
                  churches who had adopted these covenants.
                  -doom
                • Dan Fraas
                  So, Under the terms of the covenants, is it a covenant violation for churches and families to catechize using the Heidelberg Catechism? -- (not in the sense of
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 4, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    So,

                    Under the terms of the covenants, is it a covenant violation for
                    churches and families to catechize using the Heidelberg Catechism? --
                    (not in the sense of rejecting the Westminster Catechisms)

                    Riley
                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "gmw"
                    <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                    > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Peter"
                    > <GrayPJ@c...> wrote:
                    > > Thanks for the help and I'm sorry for being delinquent in
                    replying
                    > > to your post.
                    >
                    > No problem at all. If I can refresh your memory as well, I
                    consider
                    > myself a novice, and believe that others are far more qualified to
                    > comment than myself. But I'll give it my best shot.
                    >
                    > > My trouble is finding a connection between Britain and present
                    day
                    > > America.... Your answers to my objections were sufficient so I
                    will
                    > > concede- at the time of the signing, the colonies were put under
                    > > the Covenant and up until 100 years ago the people were still.
                    >
                    > Ok, then I will not endeavor to prove that which has been conceded,
                    > that the American Colonies were under the Covenant when originally
                    > sworn. The article did place much emphasis on the British descent
                    of
                    > the American people, which is important, but not the only point.
                    The
                    > Covenant was a national covenant, and an ecclesiastical covenant.
                    > Our view is that America as a nation, and not simply as a
                    collection
                    > of folks with English blood, is bound, and will be bound, until she
                    > ceases to exist. Why? Because if, as you concede, America was
                    bound
                    > up until 100 years ago, then she still is bound, for she is still
                    > America, daughter of England. When it was time to lay the
                    foundation
                    > of this nation, and America rejected the establishment of a
                    Reformed
                    > and Presbyterian Church, she did so sinfully, for she was bound by
                    > Covenant to do so. Likewise, the Churches in this nation which
                    > refuse to reform themselves according to the agreed upon standards,
                    > are refusing the Covenant as well.
                    >
                    > The following are some considerations taken from an article on
                    > Covenanting found here:
                    > http://www.covenanter.org/RPCNA/testimonyforpubliccov.htm
                    >
                    > ---
                    >
                    > 1. The Solemn League and Covenant was one vow in which the members
                    of
                    > the church and citizens of the state were bound inseparably, though
                    > distinctly; and whom any principle of the covenant binds, the whole
                    > binds; because it cannot be divided. "What God hath joined
                    together,
                    > let no man put asunder."
                    >
                    > 2. As God is one party, the Covenanter who emigrates, is after
                    > emigration, still within the dominions of him "who is King of Kings
                    > and Lord of Lords." Those who have come into the United States,
                    since
                    > the taking of the covenants, are as really under the kingly
                    authority
                    > of Christ, as they were in Great Britain; for he is "the Lord of
                    the
                    > whole earth."
                    >
                    > 3. The covenant of the British empire was renewed by the New-
                    England
                    > Puritan Pilgrims, in the year 1644, by which they and all their
                    > descendants became formally bound.
                    >
                    > 4. The colonies, at the time of entering into the Solemn League and
                    > Covenant, were an integral part of the British nation. They held
                    > their lands under the crown, and were governed by deputies of the
                    > throne, whom they acknowledged as their governors. The Boston
                    > renovation, demonstrates that they held themselves bound by the
                    > federal deed of the Lords and Commons, in 1643.
                    >
                    > 5. The old Congress of 1774, solemnly claimed for themselves, and
                    for
                    > the people of the colonies whom they represented "all the rights
                    and
                    > immunities of British Citizens." (See Marshall's Life of
                    Washington.)
                    > The most excellent part of their birthright and immunities, was,
                    that
                    > they inherited a title to the covenant blessings of their
                    ancestors,
                    > who entered into federal relations with the God of Israel. It may
                    be
                    > said in reply to this, that they did not intend to claim the
                    covenant
                    > birthright. It is admitted that they did not, and that in doing,
                    so,
                    > they committed a great sin. Men often do things, when they do not
                    > understand their own transactions, as the Assyrian king fulfilled
                    the
                    > counsel of the Lord, although "he meant not so, nor did his heart
                    > think so." Isa. 10:7.
                    >
                    > 6. The land has been blessed remarkably in temporal good things,
                    > notwithstanding it "has deeply revolted;" as God showed favor to
                    > Israel even when grossly offending him, by their abominable
                    > idolatries. "To any nation," except Israel, "never he such favor
                    did
                    > afford." And we may say of our land, as David did of Israel, "Thou
                    > shewedst them favor." Psal. 44:3.
                    >
                    > 7. All nations are under the covenant made with Noah,
                    notwithstanding
                    > they are dispersed over all the earth. All see the rainbow—and all
                    > enjoy "summer and winter, cold and heat, seed time and harvest, day
                    > and night," in fulfillment of the covenant made with their common
                    > ancestor.
                    >
                    > 8. The ten tribes, cast out into far countries, are still bound by
                    > their national covenant. The dispersed of Judah are also bound by
                    the
                    > same bond, dispersed as they are over Asia, Africa, Europe and
                    > America. "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall
                    > assemble the outcasts of Israel and the dispersed of Judah; to it
                    > shall the Gentiles seek, and his rest shall be glorious." Isa.
                    11:12.
                    > God promises to be a little sanctuary to them in the lands whither
                    > they are scattered. "Thus saith the Lord God, although I have cast
                    > them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them
                    > among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in
                    > the countries where they shall come." Ezek. 11:6. They are farther
                    > remote from the land of their fathers' sepulchres, than we of this
                    > country, are from the British Isles; and yet the God of their
                    father
                    > Jacob, acknowledges their outward covenant, relation to him.
                    >
                    > 9. The people of Judah and Benjamin were not released from their
                    > covenant obligations, during their captivity in Babylon.
                    >
                    > 10. This is the doctrine of our Declaration and
                    Testimony. "Covenants
                    > entered into by an individual or a community, continue binding
                    upon,
                    > those who enter into them, either personally, or by their
                    > representatives, so long as such persons live, unless the covenants
                    > have limited their duration to a certain period." (Reformation
                    > Principles, p. 107.). This doctrine is proved from Jer. 11:10, "The
                    > house of Israel, and the house of Judah, have broke, the covenant
                    > which I made with their fathers." The community of the British
                    nation
                    > still exists, and many such persons still live, in the United
                    States,
                    > whose fathers entered into the National Covenant of Scotland, and
                    > into "the Solemn League and Covenant of the three kingdoms of
                    > Scotland, England and Ireland."
                    > This is no more than a specimen of the ample testimony that might
                    be
                    > adduced to prove, both the perpetuity of the national covenants and
                    > their descending obligation. We trust no one will ask more to
                    > demonstrate that the ground which the Reformed Presbyterian church
                    > occupies has not been taken rashly.
                    >
                    > While under obligations so solemn, ratified by the most holy
                    > sanctions, endeared to us by the blood of our martyred fathers,—
                    "men
                    > of whom the world was not worthy,"—and recorded in the archives of
                    > heaven, we must bear our testimony against a sinful nation, laden
                    > with iniquity, that with all the lights of divine truth, shining in
                    > her firmament for nearly two centuries, has neglected to recognize
                    > her duty, by "joining herself to the Lord in a perpetual covenant,
                    > not to be forgotten." O that the God of Israel may soon set the
                    fair
                    > jewel of his covenant in our forehead, and make our nation "the
                    glory
                    > of all lands." "He hath commanded his covenant forever; holy and
                    > reverend is his name." Psal. 111:9.
                    >
                    > ---
                    >
                    > The considerations above may be helpful in considering this issue
                    of
                    > the obligation of the Covenant upon the U.S..
                    >
                    > > My second question was about the practical consequences of being
                    > > legally bound to the SL&C. What are the benefits: Motivation as a
                    > > result of fear of breaking the 2nd commandment, a reminder of
                    your
                    > > Christian obligations?
                    >
                    > Do you mean the 3rd Commandment? Falsely swearing and covenant-
                    > breaking are violations of the 3rd Commandment. Of course, the
                    > things you mention are benefits. But the benefits envisioned in
                    the
                    > Covenant are the blessings of God on Church and State, peace in the
                    > nation, unity in faith and practice in all the Churches in the
                    > nation, removal of Popery and Prelacy, etc., etc.
                    >
                    > > What are the penalties for not recognizing
                    > > the Covenants legal force? Certainly you lose the two aforesaid
                    > > benefits. What else?
                    >
                    > "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that
                    > forget God."
                    >
                    > As a result of putting the Covenant behind our back, we see not
                    unity
                    > but disunity, we see Popery running wild, the displeasure of God,
                    etc.
                    >
                    > Blessings to you, Peter.
                    >
                    > Where ya from?
                    >
                    > gmw.
                  • Shawn Anderson
                    ... Dear pastor Joseph, You can find a FREE copy of The Covenanted Reformation Defended Against Contemporary Schismatics at:
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 8, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > Whit,
                      >Where did you get the book, "Covenanted Reformation Defended Against
                      >Contemporary Schismatics", ?
                      >
                      >Thanks.
                      >Ray Joseph

                      Dear pastor Joseph,

                      You can find a FREE copy of "The Covenanted Reformation Defended
                      Against Contemporary Schismatics" at:

                      http://www.ecn.ab.ca/prce/books/covrefdf/covrefdf2.htm

                      You should aslo check out this work:

                      http://www.ecn.ab.ca/prce/books/rpcna/rpcna.htm

                      -Shawn Anderson
                      Albany CRPC
                    • seamrog1935
                      ... Against ... Thanks, Shawn, for providing the link as well! :) Whit
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 8, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Shawn Anderson"
                        <christ_saves_sinners@y...> wrote:
                        > > Whit,
                        > >Where did you get the book, "Covenanted Reformation Defended
                        Against
                        > >Contemporary Schismatics", ?
                        > >
                        > >Thanks.
                        > >Ray Joseph
                        >
                        > Dear pastor Joseph,
                        >
                        > You can find a FREE copy of "The Covenanted Reformation Defended
                        > Against Contemporary Schismatics" at:
                        >
                        > http://www.ecn.ab.ca/prce/books/covrefdf/covrefdf2.htm
                        >
                        > You should aslo check out this work:
                        >
                        > http://www.ecn.ab.ca/prce/books/rpcna/rpcna.htm
                        >
                        > -Shawn Anderson
                        > Albany CRPC

                        Thanks, Shawn, for providing the link as well! :)

                        Whit
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.