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RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Covenanters?

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  • Susan
    Hey Simon. :) A few weeks ago we bought a video series called The Spreading Flame re: church history. We ve seen 1.5 videos so far. The first one we watched
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 27, 2003
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      Hey Simon. :)
       
      A few weeks ago we bought a video series called "The Spreading Flame" re: church history. We've seen 1.5 videos so far. The first one we watched a couple of weeks ago and then the second one we began Sat. night. Rev. Sinclair Horne is one of the historian/teachers who narrates the series. We didn't know who he was in the first video, but Sat. night we smiled and fun with the fact that the man you told us about was on our T.V. screen. :)
       
      I think we're going to write him soon, Lord willing. 
       
      Susan
       
       -----Original Message-----
      From: s.padbury@... [mailto:s.padbury@...]
      Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 1:30 AM
      To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Covenanters?

      Hi Doom,

      <<Doom is fine.>>

      Fine by me.

      <<So now I want to get something straight for certain.
      There are 3 congregations, and there is this guy who refused to have a congregation
      closed down, but what I'm not sure about is whether this pastor left the
      RPCS and those 3 congregations, and is the only faithful one left, or if
      you are saying that he is the only pastor left, but 3 congregations went
      with him in leaving and the other group merged perhaps with a larger body
      or something. I just wasn't entirely clear.>>

      There were 4, but after the Scots RPs tried to make a 'strategic withdrawal'
      from their smallest congregation, and 'this guy' resigned at the way it
      was done, they were left with 3 congregations. Rev. Horne's tiny congregation
      in Edinburgh, was growing old and (seemingly) fizzling out, and the upkeep
      of their building was costing the presbytery a lot of money (plus I think
      their building was being vandalized). Now I have never met any of the other
      churches, but reports from other Scots whom I know say that the denomination
      was becoming increasingly liberal, except for 'this guy' Rev. Horne, and
      his church was the smallest, and Rev. Horne is an old man too, past 'retirement
      age'.

      > In fact, if you wrote to...
      >
      > Rev. Sinclair Horne (for that's his name),
      > Scottish Reformation Society,
      > The Magdalen Chapel,
      > Near Grassmarket,
      > Edinburgh,
      > Scotland,
      > UK.

      <<Now, would it really get to him with the line "Near Grassmarket" and the
      town? Not used to those sorts of postal directions on our side of the pond.>>

      Yes, it would have got to him. I remembered from my walks around Edinburgh
      that the Grassmarket narrows off to become a road, and near where the 'neck'
      of that road is, the Magdalen Chapel is situated. So, our postal service
      being what it is, with its postmen knowing the locality, would have easily
      mailed any letter to the appropriate building. The chapel is quite distinctive.
      And it's well labeled as the base of the Scottish Reformation Society. But
      I've just looked at the map and discovered that that road is called Cowgate,
      which you could write in place of "Neat Grassmarket".

      The Grassmarket is a wide street with mostly parking in the central reservation,
      but towards one end there is the Covenanter memorial - on the site of the
      old platform on which Renwick and those many others were martyred. Formerly
      the memorial was just a bronze disc set into the floor of the area now used
      for parking, but I think it was Rev. Horne himself who alerted the provost
      (what you may call a mayor) to this, and organised a lifting of the disk
      onto a stone dias built in the same spot, and had a small wall built around
      it. There was even a platoon of pipers from the Cameronians brought in to
      help comemmorate the occasion of the setting up of this newer memorial,
      and the provost ceremonially opened it.

      Later Rev. Horne and the Scottish Reformation Society made another large
      metal plack and fastened it to one of the walls around the memorial, and
      on this plack is an etching of the Grassmarket at the time of the martyrdoms,
      in which a crows is gathered to watch some of the Covenanters being put
      to death. This picture could have been based on an older painting or something.
      Beside the etching they also explained that these Covenanters had been martyred
      for their Reformed faith and their stand for the National Covenant, and
      all their names are listed.

      This old man is a good Christian, Reformed, solidly adhering to the Westminster
      Standards. He's visited all the sites associated with the Covenanters (graves,
      memorials, open air preaching stations, etc.) and I think he may still take
      people on tours around them in the summer. He also walks people around Edinburgh
      to see the Covenanter sites therein, and my wife and I have been on one
      of these tours last year, and Rev. Horne explains what happened at the various
      places and why. Rev. Horne has done a lot of research into the history and
      he has written some books on the Covenanters, and he is still editor of
      the Scottish Reformation Society's magazine.

      Somehow I don't think the other Scots RPs off-loaded him because he was
      down-grading.

      Hope you are well,

      Simon.




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    • s.padbury@tiscali.co.uk
      Hey Susan,
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 27, 2003
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        Hey Susan,

        <<A few weeks ago we bought a video series called "The Spreading Flame"
        re: church history. We've seen 1.5 videos so far. The first one we watched
        a couple of weeks ago and then the second one we began Sat. night. Rev.
        Sinclair Horne is one of the historian/teachers who narrates the series.
        We didn't know who he was in the first video, but Sat. night we smiled and
        fun
        with the fact that the man you told us about was on our T.V. screen. :)>>

        In this day of small things, the circles we move in are small, and we often
        bump into the same people, I'm afraid.

        <<I think we're going to write him soon, Lord willing.>>

        Please consider a vacation in the 'homeland of the Covenanters and presbyterianism'
        sometime.

        Simon.
      • Susan
        I would LOVE to go there. So am considering it and hoping for it someday. :) Susan ... From: s.padbury@tiscali.co.uk [mailto:s.padbury@tiscali.co.uk] Sent:
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 27, 2003
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          I would LOVE to go there. So am considering it and hoping for it someday. :)
           
          Susan
          -----Original Message-----
          From: s.padbury@... [mailto:s.padbury@...]
          Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 9:21 AM
          To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Covenanters?

          Hey Susan,

          <<A few weeks ago we bought a video series called "The Spreading Flame"
          re: church history. We've seen 1.5 videos so far. The first one we watched
          a couple of weeks ago and then the second one we began Sat. night. Rev.
          Sinclair Horne is one of the historian/teachers who narrates the series.
          We didn't know who he was in the first video, but Sat. night we smiled and
          fun
          with the fact that the man you told us about was on our T.V. screen. :)>>

          In this day of small things, the circles we move in are small, and we often
          bump into the same people, I'm afraid.

          <<I think we're going to write him soon, Lord willing.>>

          Please consider a vacation in the 'homeland of the Covenanters and presbyterianism'
          sometime.

          Simon.





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          covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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        • Dan Fraas
          How would you describe the difference between Scottish Reformed Presbyterians and Scottish Free Presbyterians? Riley ... size ... sure ... them
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 27, 2003
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            How would you describe the difference between Scottish Reformed
            Presbyterians and Scottish Free Presbyterians?

            Riley
            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, thebishopsdoom
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, thebishopsdoom
            > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            >
            > > Scottish RPs (not many Scottish ones left, only something like a
            > > handful that I am aware of - and at that I mean a handful of
            > persons,
            > > not a handful of churches)
            >
            > Perhaps it was one of the congregations was getting down to the
            size
            > of hearing of it as not much more than a handful of people, else
            > maybe someone just said there's just a handful of them left, not
            sure
            > where I recollect the mention of a "handful," but I now seem to
            > recall it's not really quite accurate, I think they are down to one
            > pastor, but maybe 3 congregations, though I think one or more of
            them
            > are fairly small congregations.
            > -doom
          • randssmith@webtv.net
            Susan, may i ask where you got the video series
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 27, 2003
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              Susan, may i ask where you got the video series
            • randssmith@webtv.net
              Thanks! Sure. We got it from CBD (www.cbd.com). It s a four vdo series called The Spreading Flame and was $59.95. Susan ... From: randssmith@webtv.net
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 27, 2003
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                Thanks!
              • thebishopsdoom
                Thank you Simon. I am not the greatest writer, but will be attempting, either by myself or with some asistance, to flesh out a letter for Pastor Horne at some
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 27, 2003
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                  Thank you Simon. I am not the greatest writer, but will be
                  attempting, either by myself or with some asistance, to flesh out a
                  letter for Pastor Horne at some point forthcoming.
                  I am aware that he is quite old, I was not aware of any of the oether
                  specifics.
                  -doom
                • s.padbury@tiscali.co.uk
                  The FPs are not Covenanters.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 28, 2003
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                    <<How would you describe the difference between Scottish Reformed Presbyterians
                    and Scottish Free Presbyterians?>>

                    The FPs are not Covenanters.
                  • Dan Fraas
                    Oh, really? I thought they kept the Solemn League and Covenant and Scottish National Covenant among their subordinate standards. Riley ... Presbyterians
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 28, 2003
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                      Oh, really? I thought they kept the Solemn League and Covenant and
                      Scottish National Covenant among their subordinate standards.

                      Riley
                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, s.padbury@t...
                      wrote:
                      > <<How would you describe the difference between Scottish Reformed
                      Presbyterians
                      > and Scottish Free Presbyterians?>>
                      >
                      > The FPs are not Covenanters.
                    • s.padbury@tiscali.co.uk
                      Hi Riley,
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 28, 2003
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                        Hi Riley,

                        <<<<The FPs are not Covenanters.>>>>

                        <<Oh, really? I thought they kept the Solemn League and Covenant and Scottish
                        National Covenant among their subordinate standards.>>

                        To clarify, the FPs are an off-shoot of an off-shoot of the old post-Revolution
                        Settlement Church of Scotland.

                        Some of the remaining Covenanters after the Killing Times did join back
                        with the Church of Scotland after the "Glorious Revolution," but others
                        stayed out to become the Reformed Presbyterians (these are those which I
                        referred to as the "Covenanters" before), saying that the way the post-RS
                        Church of Scotland was established was Erastian.

                        Later in history, there was the Disruption, in which part of the Church
                        of Scotland broke away to become the Free Church of Scotland, to escape
                        from a form of State interference. Later still, this Free Church adopted
                        a Declaratory Act which tried to water-down the Calvinism in the Westminster
                        Standards, and certain of the ministers were unhappy about this, so they
                        left to become the FPs. The Free Church since retracted its Declaratory
                        Act, but they still haven't acknowledged that the FPs were right to leave
                        them.

                        I'm keeping all this explanation simple and short.

                        Some of the post-Revolution Settlement Church of Scotland, and their later
                        off-shoots which I mentioned above, still believed in the perpetual binding
                        nature of the National Covenant and the Solumn League, while others quietly
                        forgot about it. The FPs retained it among their doctrinal standards, but
                        so far as I know they don't often mention it. There are some sermons of
                        their founders one occasionally comes across which refer to the Covenants,
                        like as with some in the Church of Scotland before the Disruption, and later
                        in the Free Church, but there is not a lot that look into these things any
                        more. It's just not a big thing with them.

                        Mostly, they see the old Covenanters as the custodians of presbyterianism
                        for a while, while prelacy was imposed on the Church of Scotland. But after
                        the Revolution Settlement, the Chuch of Scotland became presbyterian again.
                        So, they see themselves as heirs of the Covenanter history, which in some
                        respects they are.

                        But the FPs are not RPs - they are not Covenanters.

                        Hope this helps a little,

                        Simon.
                      • thebishopsdoom
                        ... First, thanks for the informative post. I do not know what issues in particular kept the FPs from the RPCS at the founding of the FP, though I have
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 28, 2003
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                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, s.padbury@t...
                          wrote:
                          > I'm keeping all this explanation simple and short.
                          First, thanks for the informative post.
                          I do not know what issues in particular kept the FPs from the RPCS at
                          the founding of the FP, though I have generally supposed that they
                          did not agree with all aspects of what the RPCS testified (including
                          the unlawfulness of the churches agreeing to a new constitution in
                          the revolution settlement that was on an erastian arrangement, and
                          which by the admission of many presbyterians, did not maintain all
                          the things the churches had struggled for in the 1640s. I understand
                          the laws of the covenanted general assembly were still struck out of
                          the church unless otherwise specifically adopted after the
                          revolution, but I am not sure on this. I thought I saw something to
                          that affect in a quote in J.C. Johnston's Treasury of the Scottish
                          Covenant, but could be mistaken - I am however aware that the Acts
                          Recissory were still in force under William as a part of the
                          settlement, which everyone agreed was sinful, but the RPs refused to
                          ally themselves with the settlement, especially after General
                          Assembly had failed to address a paper they submitted in I think 1689
                          if not mistaken addressing the problems they saw the issues that
                          needed addressed in the church before merging back together
                          [notwithstanding the covenanter ministrs went along in the end
                          anyway, and abandoned a bulk of their people who would not go in
                          without the matters addressed]). I do not know whether the Act,
                          Declaration, and testimony was still on the books in the RPCS by the
                          time the FPs came around.
                          When the majority of the RPCS merged into another body, a minority
                          formed a synod of the RPCS. The FPs did not seek to join with them on
                          agreement with their causes, so I presume there remained some
                          differences still.
                          Frankly, I don't know precisely where either church as an
                          ecclesiastical body has been at thru the 20th century with regards to
                          changes in anything, so I don't know what peculiars might still
                          divide them.
                          -doom
                        • s.padbury@tiscali.co.uk
                          Hi Doom,
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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                            Hi Doom,

                            <<...I have generally supposed that they did not agree with all aspects
                            of what the RPCS testified (including the unlawfulness of the churches agreeing
                            to a new constitution in the revolution settlement that was on an erastian
                            arrangement, and which by the admission of many presbyterians, did not maintain
                            all the things the churches had struggled for in the 1640s. I understand

                            the laws of the covenanted general assembly were still struck out of the
                            church unless otherwise specifically adopted after the revolution, but I
                            am not sure on this.... [T]he Acts
                            Recissory were still in force under William as a part of the
                            settlement, which everyone agreed was sinful, but the RPs refused to ally
                            themselves with the settlement, especially after General Assembly had failed
                            to address a paper they submitted....>>

                            Where can I get a look at all your sources for this above? I presume that
                            you would class all the offshoots of the post-revolution Church of Scotland,
                            including all the American ones, are still founded on this Erastian arrangement,
                            and hence sinful, which needs to be repented of and dealt with, even though
                            not many folks are aware of it.

                            Simon.
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