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Re: Presbyterians invented Gospel singing?

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  • Dan Fraas
    Well, if you trace gospel songs back to the Psalms, then I guess you d have to trace the Psalms back to David and Asaph, and the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 3, 2003
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      Well, if you trace gospel songs back to the Psalms, then I guess
      you'd have to trace the Psalms back to David and Asaph, and the Holy
      Spirit, who proceeds from the father. So you'd have to say that God
      the father invented gospel singing, not Presbyterians.

      Riley
      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "puritanstorm"
      <john@f...> wrote:
      > From WorldNetDaily:
      >
      > http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?
      >
      nodeId=62692&command=displayContent&sourceNode=62244&contentPK=688422
      > 4
      >
      > AMERICAN ACADEMIC BELIEVES GOSPEL SINGING OWES ORIGIN TO SCOTS
      >
      > SARAH BRUCE
      >
      > 16:28 - 01 September 2003
      >
      > An American professor of music believes his country's gospel
      > tradition owes its existence to the solemn psalm-singing of the
      > Scottish Hebridean churches.
      >
      > The passion of black church music - a discipline that nurtured such
      > superstars as Whitney Houston, Tina Turner and Aretha Franklin -
      was
      > always assumed to come from the days of American slavery.
      >
      > But Professor Willie Ruff, of Yale University, has put forward the
      > theory that the style of leading the congregation on each line of
      > the lyrics owes more to the Free Church of Scotland's style of
      psalm
      > singing.
      >
      > Prof Ruff, 71, said that modern-day Afro-Americans had always
      > assumed that their gospel style had been brought from Africa when
      > their ancestors were sold into slavery in the US.
      >
      > But he claims his research has shown this is a misconception, and
      > the musical traditions came from Scottish slave owners who brought
      > their religious practices and psalms with them across the Atlantic.
      >
      > Prof Ruff said: "We as black Americans have lived under a
      > misconception. Our cultural roots are more Afro-Gaelic than Afro-
      > American. We got our names from the slave masters, we got our
      > religion from the slave masters and we got our blood from the slave
      > masters."
      >
      > The professor, who has played with Duke Ellington and Dizzy
      > Gillespie, found his curiosity was aroused when he heard a
      > Presbyterian congregation in Alabama singing in the same style as
      > his own Baptist church, and wondered if it had come from the white
      > Presbyterians. Research on the history of North Carolina showed
      > Highlanders had settled there in the 1700s, and anecdotal evidence
      > of African slaves speaking Gaelic convinced Prof Ruff he had to
      > visit Scotland.
      >
      > He found himself in Stornoway, listening to the precentor lead a
      > congregation by singing each line and having them repeat the
      > haunting psalm melodies.
      >
      > The idea of rhythmic black gospel music having its roots in solemn
      > Presbyterian Scotland is proving hard to swallow - Glasgow
      > University sources said it was "plausible" and "intriguing", but
      one
      > American gospel leader simply said: "Gospel music is black music."
      >
      > Prof Ruff added: "There will be Scots who are uncomfortable with
      the
      > relationship and the involvement in the slave trade. But the Scots
      > are like anyone, and there were many who were abolitionists and who
      > set up schools for black children after emancipation."
    • kim White
      Dear Dan Fraas, I thought singing in church was started by Martin Luther. The church was against singing in church Martin disagree and started to write Hymms
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 3, 2003
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        Dear Dan Fraas,

        I thought singing in church was started by Martin
        Luther. The church was against singing in church
        Martin disagree and started to write Hymms for the
        congretion.
        I could be wrong but I saw this on a two hours PBS
        video on Martin Luther.
        Kim











        --- Dan Fraas <fraasrd@...> wrote:
        > Well, if you trace gospel songs back to the Psalms,
        > then I guess
        > you'd have to trace the Psalms back to David and
        > Asaph, and the Holy
        > Spirit, who proceeds from the father. So you'd have
        > to say that God
        > the father invented gospel singing, not
        > Presbyterians.
        >
        > Riley
        > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
        > "puritanstorm"
        > <john@f...> wrote:
        > > From WorldNetDaily:
        > >
        > >
        >
        http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?
        > >
        >
        nodeId=62692&command=displayContent&sourceNode=62244&contentPK=688422
        > > 4
        > >
        > > AMERICAN ACADEMIC BELIEVES GOSPEL SINGING OWES
        > ORIGIN TO SCOTS
        > >
        > > SARAH BRUCE
        > >
        > > 16:28 - 01 September 2003
        > >
        > > An American professor of music believes his
        > country's gospel
        > > tradition owes its existence to the solemn
        > psalm-singing of the
        > > Scottish Hebridean churches.
        > >
        > > The passion of black church music - a discipline
        > that nurtured such
        > > superstars as Whitney Houston, Tina Turner and
        > Aretha Franklin -
        > was
        > > always assumed to come from the days of American
        > slavery.
        > >
        > > But Professor Willie Ruff, of Yale University, has
        > put forward the
        > > theory that the style of leading the congregation
        > on each line of
        > > the lyrics owes more to the Free Church of
        > Scotland's style of
        > psalm
        > > singing.
        > >
        > > Prof Ruff, 71, said that modern-day Afro-Americans
        > had always
        > > assumed that their gospel style had been brought
        > from Africa when
        > > their ancestors were sold into slavery in the US.
        > >
        > > But he claims his research has shown this is a
        > misconception, and
        > > the musical traditions came from Scottish slave
        > owners who brought
        > > their religious practices and psalms with them
        > across the Atlantic.
        > >
        > > Prof Ruff said: "We as black Americans have lived
        > under a
        > > misconception. Our cultural roots are more
        > Afro-Gaelic than Afro-
        > > American. We got our names from the slave masters,
        > we got our
        > > religion from the slave masters and we got our
        > blood from the slave
        > > masters."
        > >
        > > The professor, who has played with Duke Ellington
        > and Dizzy
        > > Gillespie, found his curiosity was aroused when he
        > heard a
        > > Presbyterian congregation in Alabama singing in
        > the same style as
        > > his own Baptist church, and wondered if it had
        > come from the white
        > > Presbyterians. Research on the history of North
        > Carolina showed
        > > Highlanders had settled there in the 1700s, and
        > anecdotal evidence
        > > of African slaves speaking Gaelic convinced Prof
        > Ruff he had to
        > > visit Scotland.
        > >
        > > He found himself in Stornoway, listening to the
        > precentor lead a
        > > congregation by singing each line and having them
        > repeat the
        > > haunting psalm melodies.
        > >
        > > The idea of rhythmic black gospel music having its
        > roots in solemn
        > > Presbyterian Scotland is proving hard to swallow -
        > Glasgow
        > > University sources said it was "plausible" and
        > "intriguing", but
        > one
        > > American gospel leader simply said: "Gospel music
        > is black music."
        > >
        > > Prof Ruff added: "There will be Scots who are
        > uncomfortable with
        > the
        > > relationship and the involvement in the slave
        > trade. But the Scots
        > > are like anyone, and there were many who were
        > abolitionists and who
        > > set up schools for black children after
        > emancipation."
        >
        >


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      • thebishopsdoom
        ... No, but I know where they got that. We find our first (extraBiblical) references to worship song in the congregations amongst the earliest sources, around
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 4, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, kim White
          <sewingkim@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Dan Fraas,
          >
          > I thought singing in church was started by Martin
          > Luther. The church was against singing in church
          > Martin disagree and started to write Hymms for the
          > congretion.
          > I could be wrong but I saw this on a two hours PBS
          > video on Martin Luther.
          > Kim
          No, but I know where they got that.
          We find our first (extraBiblical) references to worship song in the
          congregations amongst the earliest sources, around the end
          of the 1st century. Ignatius records his bringing into his church the
          form of antiphonal chanting of the Psalms, which he claims to have
          gotten the idea of from a dream he interpreted as a prophetical
          vision. The reference makes no intimation that anything was new but
          the antiphonal method of singing the Psalms.
          From there, there are enough scattered references to ascertain:
          1. the psalm lesson was most probably sung in the churches in the
          city of Rome at least by the third century during the mass of the
          presanctified (the portion of the service prior to the introducing of
          the preface to the Lord's Supper).
          2. from probably as early as the 2nd century, most Christians started
          the Lord's day and in some places (and soon thereafter most places)
          every day with either Psalm 63 or 51, and soon thereafter with
          psalms 148-150 as well. This was true in both the East and the West.
          There developed also other set psalms for various occasions. These
          fixed songs were called the cathedral or secular (i.e., non-monastic)
          office. Not that no other psalms were ever sung, but other singing
          was done on a more individual basis, people singing aloud or to
          themselves at work, etc. By the fourth century, a 2nd form of
          psalmody had developed and become popular in the monasteries and
          among many of the people outside of the monasteries, which began at
          Psalm 1 and went thru the psalms in a cycle, ending at 150 and
          starting at 1 again. Various cycles were proposed, singing all 150
          psalms either in a week, a month, or even in a day. By the 5th
          century a number of churches seem to have followed a blend of the two
          forms of office - going thru the psalter plus having select psalms
          for select occasions. These offices were in the daily morning
          prayers. In the evening, Psalm 141 was sung in some places, Psalm 104
          in others. In the (probably late) third century in the east, a
          noncanonical song called the phos hilaron was added to the evening
          office in most locations, traditionally claimed to have been composed
          by Athenogenes on the occasion of his martyrdom. In the 3rd
          century also, the Gloria in Excelsis was sung in the east (possibly
          still in the form it appears in Luke, withoutr emandations), and both
          east and west were singing Exodus 15 I think during Easter season.
          3. In the east, gnostic hymnody and eventually arian hymnody had
          created a counter growth of anti-gnostic and anti-arian hymnody.
          While a number of scholars believe a large number of these were
          intended at first for no more than private instruction or
          edification, or to counter arian processions in the streets, these
          quickly entered the services of the churches, first in Syria from
          what I gather, and the method of hymnody spread to the churches from
          Syria eastwards (Persia, India, etc.). In the 4th century, if not
          sooner, they spread further West, though not yet touching the Western
          church itself that I am aware of, just more broadly expanded in the
          middle east and mediterranean region. It is possible that nonBiblical
          texts were sung outside of gnostic circles in Eygpt in the 3rd
          century as well, but this depends on an obscure reference to
          the "psalmody" of a certain Nepos (and whether it was new songs, a
          new form of singing psalms, or a new method of psalm cycles), and
          whether or not a certain Oxyrhynchus fragment with a certain hymn on
          it with a tune set in a musical notation that dates to probably no
          later than the late 3rd century was from an orthodox Coptic source or
          from a gnostic source. The fragment preserved leaves no definitive
          answer. There are scattered references at least in the 4th century to
          extraBiblical texts being brought into the churches after people
          claimed to receive the words in a prophetic vision (e.g., the
          Trisagion). It is unclear to what extent such practices may have also
          existed in the 3rd century or before.
          4. The 4th century brought the introduction of doxologies at the end
          of psalms. It also brought debates on method of singing, inspired
          versus uninspired texts, and congregational versus choral or
          individual cantor singing. Due to possibly some council (Laodieca
          perhaps), congregational singing waned through the west for perhaps a
          few decades, some churches discontinuing music altogether it would
          appear, though some have argued that it continued in some country
          churches, while the city churches tended to drop out the music or at
          least congregational singing. It was brought back to the west via
          Ambrose, via Hilary, via John Chrysostom. In the churches, Ambrose
          restored congregational psalmody to the mass, at gatherings outside
          of the mass, he also incorporated the anti-arian hymnody and composed
          some dozen and a half or so hymns of his own. The practice of both
          Psalmody and uninspired hymnody spread thru the West from Ambrose's
          diocese in Milan. The 4th century also saw the growth of other
          Biblical texts being sung, as well as the growing popularity of
          appending Biblical song texts with uninspired additions (as in the
          Gloria in Excelsis Deo). This latter practice eventually developed
          into "tropes" - antiphonally sung uninspired comments interspersed
          into Psalm texts. Psalm texts interspersed with such additions are
          called "farced Psalms." I am aware that in the Ethiopic church, this
          became (by early middle ages?) almost the exclusive method of
          Psalmody.
          5. Thru the middle ages, in the west at least, there were differences
          in what was sung (some places only recited the doxologies but other
          churches sung, some recited the Sanctus while others sung, some
          recited the Trisagion while others sung, some recited the prayers
          while others sung, some used more extensive extraBiblical songs while
          some rejected all songs not regarded as inspired by God). But while
          it was not universal, the emphasis of the day was on choral
          performances, and not all churches had even any congregational
          singing. By Luther's day, congregational singing had far waned in
          favour of ministers and professional choirs.
          What Luther introduced in Germany was, or perhaps rather
          reintroduced, was congregational singing. There were other parts of
          Europe where this practice had not been entirely lost, but the
          history of the reformation seems to show that it was not the more
          common practice in the western churches until reintroduced by the
          reformers, and then by the Roman churches in response to the popular
          support for the practice.
          That's about all I care to offer on short notice.
          -thebishopsdoom
        • Dan Fraas
          Perhaps, but who made Martin Luther? God. Riley ... nodeId=62692&command=displayContent&sourceNode=62244&contentPK=688422
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 4, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Perhaps, but who made Martin Luther? God.

            Riley
            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, kim White
            <sewingkim@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Dan Fraas,
            >
            > I thought singing in church was started by Martin
            > Luther. The church was against singing in church
            > Martin disagree and started to write Hymms for the
            > congretion.
            > I could be wrong but I saw this on a two hours PBS
            > video on Martin Luther.
            > Kim
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- Dan Fraas <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
            > > Well, if you trace gospel songs back to the Psalms,
            > > then I guess
            > > you'd have to trace the Psalms back to David and
            > > Asaph, and the Holy
            > > Spirit, who proceeds from the father. So you'd have
            > > to say that God
            > > the father invented gospel singing, not
            > > Presbyterians.
            > >
            > > Riley
            > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
            > > "puritanstorm"
            > > <john@f...> wrote:
            > > > From WorldNetDaily:
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?
            > > >
            > >
            >
            nodeId=62692&command=displayContent&sourceNode=62244&contentPK=688422
            > > > 4
            > > >
            > > > AMERICAN ACADEMIC BELIEVES GOSPEL SINGING OWES
            > > ORIGIN TO SCOTS
            > > >
            > > > SARAH BRUCE
            > > >
            > > > 16:28 - 01 September 2003
            > > >
            > > > An American professor of music believes his
            > > country's gospel
            > > > tradition owes its existence to the solemn
            > > psalm-singing of the
            > > > Scottish Hebridean churches.
            > > >
            > > > The passion of black church music - a discipline
            > > that nurtured such
            > > > superstars as Whitney Houston, Tina Turner and
            > > Aretha Franklin -
            > > was
            > > > always assumed to come from the days of American
            > > slavery.
            > > >
            > > > But Professor Willie Ruff, of Yale University, has
            > > put forward the
            > > > theory that the style of leading the congregation
            > > on each line of
            > > > the lyrics owes more to the Free Church of
            > > Scotland's style of
            > > psalm
            > > > singing.
            > > >
            > > > Prof Ruff, 71, said that modern-day Afro-Americans
            > > had always
            > > > assumed that their gospel style had been brought
            > > from Africa when
            > > > their ancestors were sold into slavery in the US.
            > > >
            > > > But he claims his research has shown this is a
            > > misconception, and
            > > > the musical traditions came from Scottish slave
            > > owners who brought
            > > > their religious practices and psalms with them
            > > across the Atlantic.
            > > >
            > > > Prof Ruff said: "We as black Americans have lived
            > > under a
            > > > misconception. Our cultural roots are more
            > > Afro-Gaelic than Afro-
            > > > American. We got our names from the slave masters,
            > > we got our
            > > > religion from the slave masters and we got our
            > > blood from the slave
            > > > masters."
            > > >
            > > > The professor, who has played with Duke Ellington
            > > and Dizzy
            > > > Gillespie, found his curiosity was aroused when he
            > > heard a
            > > > Presbyterian congregation in Alabama singing in
            > > the same style as
            > > > his own Baptist church, and wondered if it had
            > > come from the white
            > > > Presbyterians. Research on the history of North
            > > Carolina showed
            > > > Highlanders had settled there in the 1700s, and
            > > anecdotal evidence
            > > > of African slaves speaking Gaelic convinced Prof
            > > Ruff he had to
            > > > visit Scotland.
            > > >
            > > > He found himself in Stornoway, listening to the
            > > precentor lead a
            > > > congregation by singing each line and having them
            > > repeat the
            > > > haunting psalm melodies.
            > > >
            > > > The idea of rhythmic black gospel music having its
            > > roots in solemn
            > > > Presbyterian Scotland is proving hard to swallow -
            > > Glasgow
            > > > University sources said it was "plausible" and
            > > "intriguing", but
            > > one
            > > > American gospel leader simply said: "Gospel music
            > > is black music."
            > > >
            > > > Prof Ruff added: "There will be Scots who are
            > > uncomfortable with
            > > the
            > > > relationship and the involvement in the slave
            > > trade. But the Scots
            > > > are like anyone, and there were many who were
            > > abolitionists and who
            > > > set up schools for black children after
            > > emancipation."
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
            > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
          • kim White
            Dear Doom, Thank you for the info and corrections in the time lines of pslams for me. It makes better since putting it into the times frames for me. I can see
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 4, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Doom,

              Thank you for the info and corrections in the time
              lines of pslams for me. It makes better since putting
              it into the times frames for me.
              I can see Luther putting more singing to the common
              man his main goal that the gospel was for everyone not
              just the priest and heirarchy of the church. I think
              Martin Luther is glad the sermon in the Catholic
              church is no longer in Latin.
              I remember the sermons in latin as I was a kid.
              Kim













              --- thebishopsdoom <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
              > kim White
              > <sewingkim@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear Dan Fraas,
              > >
              > > I thought singing in church was started by Martin
              > > Luther. The church was against singing in church
              > > Martin disagree and started to write Hymms for the
              > > congretion.
              > > I could be wrong but I saw this on a two hours
              > PBS
              > > video on Martin Luther.
              > > Kim
              > No, but I know where they got that.
              > We find our first (extraBiblical) references to
              > worship song in the
              > congregations amongst the earliest sources, around
              > the end
              > of the 1st century. Ignatius records his bringing
              > into his church the
              > form of antiphonal chanting of the Psalms, which he
              > claims to have
              > gotten the idea of from a dream he interpreted as a
              > prophetical
              > vision. The reference makes no intimation that
              > anything was new but
              > the antiphonal method of singing the Psalms.
              > From there, there are enough scattered references to
              > ascertain:
              > 1. the psalm lesson was most probably sung in the
              > churches in the
              > city of Rome at least by the third century during
              > the mass of the
              > presanctified (the portion of the service prior to
              > the introducing of
              > the preface to the Lord's Supper).
              > 2. from probably as early as the 2nd century, most
              > Christians started
              > the Lord's day and in some places (and soon
              > thereafter most places)
              > every day with either Psalm 63 or 51, and soon
              > thereafter with
              > psalms 148-150 as well. This was true in both the
              > East and the West.
              > There developed also other set psalms for various
              > occasions. These
              > fixed songs were called the cathedral or secular
              > (i.e., non-monastic)
              > office. Not that no other psalms were ever sung, but
              > other singing
              > was done on a more individual basis, people singing
              > aloud or to
              > themselves at work, etc. By the fourth century, a
              > 2nd form of
              > psalmody had developed and become popular in the
              > monasteries and
              > among many of the people outside of the monasteries,
              > which began at
              > Psalm 1 and went thru the psalms in a cycle, ending
              > at 150 and
              > starting at 1 again. Various cycles were proposed,
              > singing all 150
              > psalms either in a week, a month, or even in a day.
              > By the 5th
              > century a number of churches seem to have followed a
              > blend of the two
              > forms of office - going thru the psalter plus having
              > select psalms
              > for select occasions. These offices were in the
              > daily morning
              > prayers. In the evening, Psalm 141 was sung in some
              > places, Psalm 104
              > in others. In the (probably late) third century in
              > the east, a
              > noncanonical song called the phos hilaron was added
              > to the evening
              > office in most locations, traditionally claimed to
              > have been composed
              > by Athenogenes on the occasion of his martyrdom. In
              > the 3rd
              > century also, the Gloria in Excelsis was sung in the
              > east (possibly
              > still in the form it appears in Luke, withoutr
              > emandations), and both
              > east and west were singing Exodus 15 I think during
              > Easter season.
              > 3. In the east, gnostic hymnody and eventually arian
              > hymnody had
              > created a counter growth of anti-gnostic and
              > anti-arian hymnody.
              > While a number of scholars believe a large number of
              > these were
              > intended at first for no more than private
              > instruction or
              > edification, or to counter arian processions in the
              > streets, these
              > quickly entered the services of the churches, first
              > in Syria from
              > what I gather, and the method of hymnody spread to
              > the churches from
              > Syria eastwards (Persia, India, etc.). In the 4th
              > century, if not
              > sooner, they spread further West, though not yet
              > touching the Western
              > church itself that I am aware of, just more broadly
              > expanded in the
              > middle east and mediterranean region. It is possible
              > that nonBiblical
              > texts were sung outside of gnostic circles in Eygpt
              > in the 3rd
              > century as well, but this depends on an obscure
              > reference to
              > the "psalmody" of a certain Nepos (and whether it
              > was new songs, a
              > new form of singing psalms, or a new method of psalm
              > cycles), and
              > whether or not a certain Oxyrhynchus fragment with a
              > certain hymn on
              > it with a tune set in a musical notation that dates
              > to probably no
              > later than the late 3rd century was from an orthodox
              > Coptic source or
              > from a gnostic source. The fragment preserved leaves
              > no definitive
              > answer. There are scattered references at least in
              > the 4th century to
              > extraBiblical texts being brought into the churches
              > after people
              > claimed to receive the words in a prophetic vision
              > (e.g., the
              > Trisagion). It is unclear to what extent such
              > practices may have also
              > existed in the 3rd century or before.
              > 4. The 4th century brought the introduction of
              > doxologies at the end
              > of psalms. It also brought debates on method of
              > singing, inspired
              > versus uninspired texts, and congregational versus
              > choral or
              > individual cantor singing. Due to possibly some
              > council (Laodieca
              > perhaps), congregational singing waned through the
              > west for perhaps a
              > few decades, some churches discontinuing music
              > altogether it would
              > appear, though some have argued that it continued in
              > some country
              > churches, while the city churches tended to drop out
              > the music or at
              > least congregational singing. It was brought back to
              > the west via
              > Ambrose, via Hilary, via John Chrysostom. In the
              > churches, Ambrose
              > restored congregational psalmody to the mass, at
              > gatherings outside
              > of the mass, he also incorporated the anti-arian
              > hymnody and composed
              > some dozen and a half or so hymns of his own. The
              > practice of both
              > Psalmody and uninspired hymnody spread thru the West
              > from Ambrose's
              > diocese in Milan. The 4th century also saw the
              > growth of other
              > Biblical texts being sung, as well as the growing
              > popularity of
              > appending Biblical song texts with uninspired
              > additions (as in the
              > Gloria in Excelsis Deo). This latter practice
              > eventually developed
              > into "tropes" - antiphonally sung uninspired
              > comments interspersed
              > into Psalm texts. Psalm texts interspersed with such
              > additions are
              > called "farced Psalms." I am aware that in the
              > Ethiopic church, this
              > became (by early middle ages?) almost the exclusive
              > method of
              > Psalmody.
              > 5. Thru the middle ages, in the west at least, there
              > were differences
              > in what was sung (some places only recited the
              > doxologies but other
              > churches sung, some recited the Sanctus while others
              > sung, some
              > recited the Trisagion while others sung, some
              > recited the prayers
              > while others sung, some used more extensive
              > extraBiblical songs while
              > some rejected all songs not regarded as inspired by
              > God). But while
              > it was not universal, the emphasis of the day was on
              > choral
              > performances, and not all churches had even any
              > congregational
              > singing. By Luther's day, congregational singing had
              > far waned in
              > favour of ministers and professional choirs.
              > What Luther introduced in Germany was, or perhaps
              > rather
              > reintroduced, was congregational singing. There were
              > other
              === message truncated ===


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            • thebishopsdoom
              ... Well, it wasn t just the hierarchy per se, but the choral performances in general had weakened further the participation of the common man as anything more
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 4, 2003
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                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, kim White
                <sewingkim@y...> wrote:

                > I can see Luther putting more singing to the common
                > man his main goal that the gospel was for everyone not
                > just the priest and heirarchy of the church.
                Well, it wasn't just the hierarchy per se, but the choral
                performances in general had weakened further the participation of the
                common man as anything more than a spectator at worship. In my haste,
                I may oversimplify some things here, so bear with my infirmity here.
                One of the difficulties coming thru the middle ages, again, not
                necessarily everywhere, but a common problem, is that the average
                Christian did things on his own, but in corporate worship, he was
                heavily reliant upon others to do most everything for him. Not only
                did others offer up his praise for him (with respect to the singing;
                there was some congregational participation at least in the
                liturgical prayers surrounding the mass), but in the mass, a
                corruption had been introduced and spread whereby the eucharist was
                effectual not to the individual by faith, nor was the requirement
                something along the lines of looking thru the symbols to the cross of
                Calvary, and pledging himself thereto and requesting of God thru that
                sacrifice (at Calvary, smbolized in the bread and wine) to bestow the
                pardon of sins and sanctification of our nature. Rather,
                increasingly, the effectualness was dependent upon the "priest" and
                him alone. Furthermore, the sacrifice of the mass was increasingly
                seen as more than a symbol of the sacrifice at Calvary, but a fresh
                sacrificing of Christ, or otherwise adding something to Calvary or
                repeating Calvary again as though God needed Calvary repeated, or
                some further sacrifice for our new sins committed daily. As a result,
                the person in many churches in Europe needed only to be a spectator
                and to believe that if the minister followed the liturgical
                formulations properly, everything was already done for the average
                Christian in the congregation, so long as he remained in the
                institutional church, which (in addition to Christian souls believed
                to be in purgatory) were the objects the priest beseached the
                benefits of the sacrifice for. So there was this danger that church
                was to become a spectator sport as it were. If the minister did his
                part, and I stayed in the institutional church and didn't do anything
                to get excommunicated, I had pretty much done my part. (Of course, it
                shouldn't be denied that many souls understood outside of the
                corporate worship service their need for personal experience with God
                and private worship, but like as today many think if they attend
                church on lord's days, they've done their part for God, so too, the
                danger here was that people think that they can just relax and let
                the priest do all the work for them, as long as they try to be moral
                people, or at least, make some contribution to the church if they do
                anything immoral, in the idea that the priest would be bound to
                pronounce a sentence of assurance of absolution to them for their
                good deed, as though the mere work itself was a proof of repentance,
                which is what penance originally was for - to give evidence to the
                church that you had in fact repented by a willingness to satisfy the
                church's demands for proof of repentance). Of course, in saying all
                of this, I am speaking of common errors of that time, I am not
                claiming that these errors were absolutely universal, though the
                church in general was not absent of those things which might foster
                such errors in people's minds (the expressions used in the prayers of
                the mass, and the fact that the mass was held and widely held as
                beneficial to the people regardless of whether the people yet knew
                the latin language to know what was going on, for example, could be
                theorized to have perhaps helped to feed the idea that all that
                mattered was that the minister follow the right formulae, regardless
                of whether I have any idea what he is saying or doing, and if he does
                his job I would be granted blessings by the minister's own work, in
                and of itself).

                >I think
                > Martin Luther is glad the sermon in the Catholic
                > church is no longer in Latin.
                > I remember the sermons in latin as I was a kid.
                > Kim
                Yes, I am sure that he would. To be fair, throughout most of the
                middle ages, the better churches had attempted to teach the people
                latin. And thru the middle ages, many people as a result did in fact
                know latin as a second language. The problem is that since things
                depended predominantly on the right liturgical formulas, and the
                actions and intercession of the minister, it was common for the
                church to do worship in Latin and try to instruct the people on it
                only afterwards if at all. Since it didn't matter whether or not the
                people
                understood the words or what was going on, so long as the minister
                did his job for their benefit, the people really didn't need to know
                latin. That's why they just started everything in Latin from the very
                beginning of bringing the church into a nation, expecting new
                converts to be taught later on about what was actually being saidin
                the latin. As a result, there was less push for vernacular
                translations, and certainly less
                push for vernacular masses. There were some thru the middle ages, but
                they seem to have been in the minority. Likewise, while the church in
                better times and places did attempt to teach the people latin to
                understand what was going on and to read the common translation of
                the Scriptures, it seems apparent that by the reformation the general
                populace in much of Europe did not appear to know latin, and thus the
                popularity of vernacular translations and services at the time of the
                reformation.
                -thebishopsdoom
              • kim White
                Dear Doom, Thank you for the history lesson. It all makes sense. No wonder the middle ages was also called the dark ages too. Kim ...
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 5, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Doom,

                  Thank you for the history lesson. It all makes sense.

                  No wonder the middle ages was also called the dark
                  ages too.


                  Kim













                  --- thebishopsdoom <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                  > kim White
                  > <sewingkim@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I can see Luther putting more singing to the
                  > common
                  > > man his main goal that the gospel was for everyone
                  > not
                  > > just the priest and heirarchy of the church.
                  > Well, it wasn't just the hierarchy per se, but the
                  > choral
                  > performances in general had weakened further the
                  > participation of the
                  > common man as anything more than a spectator at
                  > worship. In my haste,
                  > I may oversimplify some things here, so bear with my
                  > infirmity here.
                  > One of the difficulties coming thru the middle ages,
                  > again, not
                  > necessarily everywhere, but a common problem, is
                  > that the average
                  > Christian did things on his own, but in corporate
                  > worship, he was
                  > heavily reliant upon others to do most everything
                  > for him. Not only
                  > did others offer up his praise for him (with respect
                  > to the singing;
                  > there was some congregational participation at least
                  > in the
                  > liturgical prayers surrounding the mass), but in the
                  > mass, a
                  > corruption had been introduced and spread whereby
                  > the eucharist was
                  > effectual not to the individual by faith, nor was
                  > the requirement
                  > something along the lines of looking thru the
                  > symbols to the cross of
                  > Calvary, and pledging himself thereto and requesting
                  > of God thru that
                  > sacrifice (at Calvary, smbolized in the bread and
                  > wine) to bestow the
                  > pardon of sins and sanctification of our nature.
                  > Rather,
                  > increasingly, the effectualness was dependent upon
                  > the "priest" and
                  > him alone. Furthermore, the sacrifice of the mass
                  > was increasingly
                  > seen as more than a symbol of the sacrifice at
                  > Calvary, but a fresh
                  > sacrificing of Christ, or otherwise adding something
                  > to Calvary or
                  > repeating Calvary again as though God needed Calvary
                  > repeated, or
                  > some further sacrifice for our new sins committed
                  > daily. As a result,
                  > the person in many churches in Europe needed only to
                  > be a spectator
                  > and to believe that if the minister followed the
                  > liturgical
                  > formulations properly, everything was already done
                  > for the average
                  > Christian in the congregation, so long as he
                  > remained in the
                  > institutional church, which (in addition to
                  > Christian souls believed
                  > to be in purgatory) were the objects the priest
                  > beseached the
                  > benefits of the sacrifice for. So there was this
                  > danger that church
                  > was to become a spectator sport as it were. If the
                  > minister did his
                  > part, and I stayed in the institutional church and
                  > didn't do anything
                  > to get excommunicated, I had pretty much done my
                  > part. (Of course, it
                  > shouldn't be denied that many souls understood
                  > outside of the
                  > corporate worship service their need for personal
                  > experience with God
                  > and private worship, but like as today many think if
                  > they attend
                  > church on lord's days, they've done their part for
                  > God, so too, the
                  > danger here was that people think that they can just
                  > relax and let
                  > the priest do all the work for them, as long as they
                  > try to be moral
                  > people, or at least, make some contribution to the
                  > church if they do
                  > anything immoral, in the idea that the priest would
                  > be bound to
                  > pronounce a sentence of assurance of absolution to
                  > them for their
                  > good deed, as though the mere work itself was a
                  > proof of repentance,
                  > which is what penance originally was for - to give
                  > evidence to the
                  > church that you had in fact repented by a
                  > willingness to satisfy the
                  > church's demands for proof of repentance). Of
                  > course, in saying all
                  > of this, I am speaking of common errors of that
                  > time, I am not
                  > claiming that these errors were absolutely
                  > universal, though the
                  > church in general was not absent of those things
                  > which might foster
                  > such errors in people's minds (the expressions used
                  > in the prayers of
                  > the mass, and the fact that the mass was held and
                  > widely held as
                  > beneficial to the people regardless of whether the
                  > people yet knew
                  > the latin language to know what was going on, for
                  > example, could be
                  > theorized to have perhaps helped to feed the idea
                  > that all that
                  > mattered was that the minister follow the right
                  > formulae, regardless
                  > of whether I have any idea what he is saying or
                  > doing, and if he does
                  > his job I would be granted blessings by the
                  > minister's own work, in
                  > and of itself).
                  >
                  > >I think
                  > > Martin Luther is glad the sermon in the Catholic
                  > > church is no longer in Latin.
                  > > I remember the sermons in latin as I was a kid.
                  > > Kim
                  > Yes, I am sure that he would. To be fair, throughout
                  > most of the
                  > middle ages, the better churches had attempted to
                  > teach the people
                  > latin. And thru the middle ages, many people as a
                  > result did in fact
                  > know latin as a second language. The problem is
                  > that since things
                  > depended predominantly on the right liturgical
                  > formulas, and the
                  > actions and intercession of the minister, it was
                  > common for the
                  > church to do worship in Latin and try to instruct
                  > the people on it
                  > only afterwards if at all. Since it didn't matter
                  > whether or not the
                  > people
                  > understood the words or what was going on, so long
                  > as the minister
                  > did his job for their benefit, the people really
                  > didn't need to know
                  > latin. That's why they just started everything in
                  > Latin from the very
                  > beginning of bringing the church into a nation,
                  > expecting new
                  > converts to be taught later on about what was
                  > actually being saidin
                  > the latin. As a result, there was less push for
                  > vernacular
                  > translations, and certainly less
                  > push for vernacular masses. There were some thru the
                  > middle ages, but
                  > they seem to have been in the minority. Likewise,
                  > while the church in
                  > better times and places did attempt to teach the
                  > people latin to
                  > understand what was going on and to read the common
                  > translation of
                  > the Scriptures, it seems apparent that by the
                  > reformation the general
                  > populace in much of Europe did not appear to know
                  > latin, and thus the
                  > popularity of vernacular translations and services
                  > at the time of the
                  > reformation.
                  > -thebishopsdoom
                  >
                  >


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