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Re: Research Question.

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  • weeping_calvinist
    Hey bro, Here s John Chrysostom awhile, but I ll dig up some more too: Homily XX. 1 Corinthians chapter 8, verse 1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols:
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 18, 2003
      Hey bro,

      Here's John Chrysostom awhile, but I'll dig up some more too:

      Homily XX.

      1 Corinthians chapter 8, verse 1 Now concerning things sacrificed to
      idols: we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but
      love edifieth.

      IT is necessary first to say what the meaning of this passage is: for
      so shall we readily comprehend the Apostle's discourse. For he that
      sees a charge brought against any one, except he first perceive the
      nature of the offence will not understand what is said. What then is
      it of which he was then accusing the Corinthians? A heavy charge and
      the cause of many evils. Well, what is it? Many among them, having
      learnt that (St. Matthew chapter 15, verse 11) "not the things which
      enter in defile the man, but the things which proceed out," and that
      idols of wood and stone, and demons, have no power to hurt or help,
      had made an immoderate use of their perfect knowledge of this to the
      harm both of others and of themselves. They had both gone in where
      idols were and had partaken of the tables there, and were producing
      thereby great and ruinous evil. For, on the one hand, those who still
      retained the fear of idols and knew not how to contemn them, took
      part in those meals, because they saw the more perfect sort doing
      this; and hence they got the greatest injury: since they did not
      touch what was set before them with the same mind as the others, but
      as things offered in sacrifice to idols; and the thing was becoming a
      way to idolatry. On the other hand, these very persons who pretended
      to be more perfect were injured in no common way, partaking in the
      tables of demons.

      This then was the subject of complaint. Now this blessed man being
      about to correct it, did not immediately begin to speak vehemently;
      for that which was done came more of folly than of wickedness:
      wherefore in the first instance there was need rather of exhortation
      than of severe rebuke and wrath. Now herein observe his good sense,
      how he immediately begins to admonish.

      "Now concerning things sacrificed to idols,we know that we all have
      knowledge." Leaving alone the weak, which he always doth, he
      discourses with the strong first. And this is what he did also in the
      Epistle to the Romans, saying, (Romans chapter 14, verse 10) "But
      thou, why dost thou judge thy brother?" for this is the sort of
      person that is able to receive rebuke also with readiness. Exactly
      the same then he doth here also.

      And first he makes void their conceit by declaring that this very
      thing which they considered as peculiar to themselves, the having
      perfect knowledge, was common to all. Thus, "we know," saith
      he, "that we all have knowledge." For if allowing them to have high
      thoughts, he had first pointed out how hurtful the thing was to
      others, he would not have done them so much good as harm. For the
      ambitious soul when it plumes itself upon any thing, even though the
      same do harm to others, yet strongly adheres to it because of the
      tyranny of vain-glory. Wherefore Paul first examines the matter
      itself by itself: just as he had done before in the case of the
      wisdom from without, demolishing it with a high hand. But in that
      case he did it as we might have expected: for the whole thing was
      altogether blameworthy and his task was very easy. Wherefore he
      signifies it to be not only useless, but even contrary to the Gospel.
      But in the present case it was not possible to do this. For what was
      done was of knowledge, and perfect knowledge. Nor was it safe to
      overthrow it, and yet in no other way was it possible to cast out the
      conceit which had resulted from it. What then doeth he? First, by
      signifying that it was common, he curbs that swelling pride of
      theirs. For they who possess something great and excellent are more
      elated, when they alone have it; but if it be made out that they
      possess it in common with others, they no longer have so much of this
      feeling. First then he makes it common property, because they
      considered it to belong to themselves alone.

      Next, having made it common, he does not make himself singly a sharer
      in it with them; for in this way too he would have rather set them
      up; for as to be the only possessor elates, so to have one partner or
      two perhaps among leading persons has this effect just as much. For
      this reason he does not mention himself but all: he said not, "I too
      have knowledge," but, "we know that we all have knowledge."

      [2.] This then is one way, and the first, by which he cast down their
      pride; the next hath greater force. What then is this? In that he
      shews that not even this thing itself was in all points complete, but
      imperfect, and extremely so. And not only imperfect, but also
      injurious, unless there were another thing joined together with it.
      For having said that" we have knowledge," he added, "Knowledge
      puffeth up, but love edifieth:" so that when it is without love, it
      lifts men up to absolute arrogance.

      "And yet not even love," you will say, "without knowledge hath any
      advantage." Well: this he did not say; but omitting it as a thing
      allowed by all, he signifies that knowledge stands in extreme need of
      love. For he who loves, inasmuch as he fulfils the commandment which
      is most absolute of all, even though he have some defects, will
      quickly be blest with knowledge because of his love; as Cornelius and
      many others. But he that hath knowledge but hath not love, not only
      shall gain nothing more, but shall also be cast out of that which he
      hath, in many cases falling into arrogance. It seems then that
      knowledge is not productive of love, but on the contrary debars from
      it him that is not on his guard, puffing him up and elating him. For
      arrogance is wont to causedivisions: but love both draws together
      andleads to knowledge. And to make this plain he saith, "But if any
      man loveth God, the same isknown of Him." So that "I forbid not
      this," saith he, "namely, your having perfect knowledge; but your
      having it with love, that I enjoin; else is it no gain, but rather
      loss."

      Do you see how he already sounds the first note of his discourse
      concerning love? For since all these evils were springing from the
      following root, i. e., not from perfect knowledge, but from their not
      greatly loving nor sparing their neighbors; whence ensued both their
      variance and their self-satisfaction, and all the rest which he had
      charged them with; both before this and after he is continually
      providing for love; so correcting the fountain of all good
      things. "Now why," saith he, "are ye puffed up about knowledge? For
      if ye have not love, ye shall even be injured thereby. For what is
      worse than boasting? But if the other be added, the first also will
      be in safety. For although you may know something more than your
      neighbor, if you love him you will not set yourself up but lead him
      also to the same." Wherefore also having said, "Knowledge puffeth
      up," he added, "but love edifieth." He did not say, "Behaveth itself
      modestly," but what is much more, and more gainful. For their
      knowledge was not only puffing them up but also distracting them. On
      this account he opposes the one to the other.

      [3.] And then he adds a third consideration, which was of force to
      set them down. What then is this? that although charity be joined
      with it, yet not even in that case is this our knowledge perfect. And
      therefore he adds,

      Ver. 2. "But if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth
      nothing yet as he ought to know." This is a mortal blow. "I dwell
      not," saith he, "on the knowledge being common to all. I say not that
      by hating your neighbor and by arrogance, you injure yourself most.
      But even though you have it by yourself alone, though you be modest,
      though you love your brother, even in this case you are imperfect in
      regard of knowledge. "For as yet thou knowest nothing as thou
      oughtest to know," Now if we possess as yet exact knowledge of
      nothing, how is it that some have rushed on to such a pitch of frenzy
      as to say that they know God with all exactness? Whereas, though we
      had an exact knowledge of all other things, not even so were it
      possible to possess this knowledge to such an extent. For how far He
      is apart from all things, it is impossible even to say.

      And mark how he pulls down their swelling pride: for he said not, "of
      the matters before us ye have not the proper knowledge," but, "about
      every thing." And he did not say, "ye," but, "no one whatever," be it
      Peter, be it Paul, be it any one else. For by this he both soothed
      them and carefully kept them under.

      Ver. 3. "But if any man love God, the same," he doth not
      say, "knoweth Him," but, "is known of Him." For we have not known
      Him, but He hath known us. And therefore did Christ say, "Ye have not
      chosen Me, but I have chosen you." And Paul elsewhere, "Then shall I
      know fully, even as also I have been known."

      Observe now, I pray, by what means he brings down their high-
      mindedness. First, he points out that not they alone knew the things
      which they knew; for "we all," he saith," have knowledge." Next, that
      the thing itself was hurtful so long as it was without love;
      for "knowledge," saith he, "puffeth up." Thirdly, that even joined
      with love it is not complete nor perfect. "For if any man thinketh
      that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing as yet as he ought to
      know," so he speaks. In addition to this, that they have not even
      this from themselves, but by gift from God. For he said not, "hath
      known God," but, "is known of Him." Again, that this very thing comes
      of love which they have not as they ought. For, "if any man," saith
      he, "love God, the same is known of Him." Having then so much at
      large allayed their irritation, he begins to speak doctrinally,
      saying thus.

      ---
      More to come,
      gmw.
    • weeping_calvinist
      Not sure how helpful he ll be, but here s John Gill: Ver. 1. Now as touching things offered unto idols, etc.] This was another of the things the Corinthians
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 18, 2003
        Not sure how helpful he'll be, but here's John Gill:

        Ver. 1. Now as touching things offered unto idols, etc.] This was
        another of the things the Corinthians wrote to the apostle about,
        desiring to have his judgment in; it was a controversy that had been
        before moved, whether it was lawful to eat things that had been
        sacrificed to idols. This was considered in the council at Jerusalem,
        (Acts 15:28,29) and it was agreed to, for the peace of the churches,
        that the Gentiles, among other things, be advised to abstain from
        them; which, it seems, the church at Corinth knew nothing of, for the
        controversy was now moved among them: some that were weak in the
        faith, and had not, at least, clear notions of Gospel liberty,
        thought it very criminal and sinful to eat them; others that had, or
        boasted they had, more knowledge, would not only eat them privately
        at home, having bought them of the Heathen priests, or in the common
        meat markets, where they were exposed to sale, and at public feasts,
        to which they were invited by their friends; but would even go into
        an idol's temple, and sit and eat them there, to the great grief and
        prejudice of weak Christians; and what they had to plead in their own
        defence was their knowledge, to which the apostle here replies:

        we know that we all have knowledge; said either affirmatively and
        seriously; and the meaning is, that the apostles and other Christians
        knew, and were conscious to themselves of their light and knowledge,
        and were assured, and might affirm with confidence, that they all, or
        the most part, only some few excepted, (see 1 Corinthians 8:7) had
        the same knowledge of Christian liberty as they had; knew that an
        idol was nothing, and that eating meats offered to them could not
        defile, or do them any hurt; for they were very sensible there was
        nothing common or unclean of itself, and yet did not think fit to
        make use of their knowledge to the grieving and wounding of their
        fellow Christians: or else this is said ironically, we are wise
        folks; you particularly are men of knowledge, and wisdom will die
        with you; you know that you know; you are very knowing in your own
        conceits, and very positive as to your knowledge. It was the saying of
        Socrates, that that this one thing he knew, that he knew nothing; but
        men wise in their own opinions know everything:

        knowledge puffeth up; not true knowledge; not that which comes from
        above, which is gentle and easy to be entreated; not sanctified
        knowledge, or that which has the grace of God going along with it;
        that makes men humble, and will not suffer them to be puffed up one
        against another; but a mere show of knowledge, knowledge in conceit,
        mere notional and speculative knowledge, that which is destitute of
        charity or love:

        but charity edifieth; that is, a man that has knowledge, joined with
        love to God, and his fellow Christians, will seek for that which
        makes for the edification of others; and without this all his
        knowledge will be of no avail, and he himself be nothing.

        Ver. 2. And if any man think that he knows anything, etc.] Whoever
        has an opinion of himself, or is conceited with his own knowledge,
        and fancies that he knows more than he does; which is always the case
        of those that are elated with their knowledge, and treat others with
        contempt, and have no regard to their peace and edification:

        he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know; if he did, he would know
        this, that he ought to consult the peace, comfort, and edification of
        his brother; and therefore whatever knowledge he may fancy he has
        attained to, or whatever he may be capable of, and hereafter obtain,
        for the present he must be put down for a man that knows nothing as
        he should do; for he knows neither his duty to God nor man; if he
        knew the former, he would know the latter.

        Ver. 3. But if any man love God, etc.] As they do, and show it, who
        love their brethren, and are careful not to grieve them; and make use
        of their superior knowledge, not for their destruction, but
        edification: the same is known of him; is taught by him, made to know
        more by him; such an one increases in spiritual knowledge, or he is
        highly approved of, esteemed, and beloved by God: he takes a special
        and particular notice of him, manifests his love to him, and will own
        and acknowledge him another day, when proud, haughty, overbearing,
        and hard hearted professors, will be rejected by him.

        ===
        Still looking for stuff... I know I have Hodge laying around here
        somewhere....

        gmw.
      • Thomas Britton
        Thanks Bro, In addition to anything on 1 Cor. 8:1b-3, I m looking for sermons or commentary on Proverbs 26:12. Tom weeping_calvinist
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 19, 2003
          Thanks Bro,
           
          In addition to anything on 1 Cor. 8:1b-3, I'm looking for sermons or commentary on Proverbs 26:12.
           
          Tom

          weeping_calvinist <raging.calvinist@...> wrote:
          Hey bro,

          Here's John Chrysostom awhile, but I'll dig up some more too:

          Homily XX.

          1 Corinthians chapter 8, verse 1 Now concerning things sacrificed to
          idols: we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but
          love edifieth.

          IT is necessary first to say what the meaning of this passage is: for
          so shall we readily comprehend the Apostle's discourse. For he that
          sees a charge brought against any one, except he first perceive the
          nature of the offence will not understand what is said. What then is
          it of which he was then accusing the Corinthians? A heavy charge and
          the cause of many evils. Well, what is it? Many among them, having
          learnt that (St. Matthew chapter 15, verse 11) "not the things which
          enter in defile the man, but the things which proceed out," and that
          idols of wood and stone, and demons, have no power to hurt or help,
          had made an immoderate use of their perfect knowledge of this to the
          harm both of others and of themselves. They had both gone in where
          idols were and had partaken of the tables there, and were producing
          thereby great and ruinous evil. For, on the one hand, those who still
          retained the fear of idols and knew not how to contemn them, took
          part in those meals, because they saw the more perfect sort doing
          this; and hence they got the greatest injury: since they did not
          touch what was set before them with the same mind as the others, but
          as things offered in sacrifice to idols; and the thing was becoming a
          way to idolatry. On the other hand, these very persons who pretended
          to be more perfect were injured in no common way, partaking in the
          tables of demons.

          This then was the subject of complaint. Now this blessed man being
          about to correct it, did not immediately begin to speak vehemently;
          for that which was done came more of folly than of wickedness:
          wherefore in the first instance there was need rather of exhortation
          than of severe rebuke and wrath. Now herein observe his good sense,
          how he immediately begins to admonish.

          "Now concerning things sacrificed to idols,we know that we all have
          knowledge." Leaving alone the weak, which he always doth, he
          discourses with the strong first. And this is what he did also in the
          Epistle to the Romans, saying, (Romans chapter 14, verse 10) "But
          thou, why dost thou judge thy brother?" for this is the sort of
          person that is able to receive rebuke also with readiness. Exactly
          the same then he doth here also.

          And first he makes void their conceit by declaring that this very
          thing which they considered as peculiar to themselves, the having
          perfect knowledge, was common to all. Thus, "we know," saith
          he, "that we all have knowledge." For if allowing them to have high
          thoughts, he had first pointed out how hurtful the thing was to
          others, he would not have done them so much good as harm. For the
          ambitious soul when it plumes itself upon any thing, even though the
          same do harm to others, yet strongly adheres to it because of the
          tyranny of vain-glory. Wherefore Paul first examines the matter
          itself by itself: just as he had done before in the case of the
          wisdom from without, demolishing it with a high hand. But in that
          case he did it as we might have expected: for the whole thing was
          altogether blameworthy and his task was very easy. Wherefore he
          signifies it to be not only useless, but even contrary to the Gospel.
          But in the present case it was not possible to do this. For what was
          done was of knowledge, and perfect knowledge. Nor was it safe to
          overthrow it, and yet in no other way was it possible to cast out the
          conceit which had resulted from it. What then doeth he? First, by
          signifying that it was common, he curbs that swelling pride of
          theirs. For they who possess something great and excellent are more
          elated, when they alone have it; but if it be made out that they
          possess it in common with others, they no longer have so much of this
          feeling. First then he makes it common property, because they
          considered it to belong to themselves alone.

          Next, having made it common, he does not make himself singly a sharer
          in it with them; for in this way too he would have rather set them
          up; for as to be the only possessor elates, so to have one partner or
          two perhaps among leading persons has this effect just as much. For
          this reason he does not mention himself but all: he said not, "I too
          have knowledge," but, "we know that we all have knowledge."

          [2.] This then is one way, and the first, by which he cast down their
          pride; the next hath greater force. What then is this? In that he
          shews that not even this thing itself was in all points complete, but
          imperfect, and extremely so. And not only imperfect, but also
          injurious, unless there were another thing joined together with it.
          For having said that" we have knowledge," he added, "Knowledge
          puffeth up, but love edifieth:" so that when it is without love, it
          lifts men up to absolute arrogance.

          "And yet not even love," you will say, "without knowledge hath any
          advantage." Well: this he did not say; but omitting it as a thing
          allowed by all, he signifies that knowledge stands in extreme need of
          love. For he who loves, inasmuch as he fulfils the commandment which
          is most absolute of all, even though he have some defects, will
          quickly be blest with knowledge because of his love; as Cornelius and
          many others. But he that hath knowledge but hath not love, not only
          shall gain nothing more, but shall also be cast out of that which he
          hath, in many cases falling into arrogance. It seems then that
          knowledge is not productive of love, but on the contrary debars from
          it him that is not on his guard, puffing him up and elating him. For
          arrogance is wont to causedivisions: but love both draws together
          andleads to knowledge. And to make this plain he saith, "But if any
          man loveth God, the same isknown of Him." So that "I forbid not
          this," saith he, "namely, your having perfect knowledge; but your
          having it with love, that I enjoin; else is it no gain, but rather
          loss."

          Do you see how he already sounds the first note of his discourse
          concerning love? For since all these evils were springing from the
          following root, i. e., not from perfect knowledge, but from their not
          greatly loving nor sparing their neighbors; whence ensued both their
          variance and their self-satisfaction, and all the rest which he had
          charged them with; both before this and after he is continually
          providing for love; so correcting the fountain of all good
          things. "Now why," saith he, "are ye puffed up about knowledge? For
          if ye have not love, ye shall even be injured thereby. For what is
          worse than boasting? But if the other be added, the first also will
          be in safety. For although you may know something more than your
          neighbor, if you love him you will not set yourself up but lead him
          also to the same." Wherefore also having said, "Knowledge puffeth
          up," he added, "but love edifieth." He did not say, "Behaveth itself
          modestly," but what is much more, and more gainful. For their
          knowledge was not only puffing them up but also distracting them. On
          this account he opposes the one to the other.

          [3.] And then he adds a third consideration, which was of force to
          set them down. What then is this? that although charity be joined
          with it, yet not even in that case is this our knowledge perfect. And
          therefore he adds,

          Ver. 2. "But if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth
          nothing yet as he ought to know." This is a mortal blow. "I dwell
          not," saith he, "on the knowledge being common to all. I say not that
          by hating your neighbor and by arrogance, you injure yourself most.
          But even though you have it by yourself alone, though you be modest,
          though you love your brother, even in this case you are imperfect in
          regard of knowledge. "For as yet thou knowest nothing as thou
          oughtest to know," Now if we possess as yet exact knowledge of
          nothing, how is it that some have rushed on to such a pitch of frenzy
          as to say that they know God with all exactness? Whereas, though we
          had an exact knowledge of all other things, not even so were it
          possible to possess this knowledge to such an extent. For how far He
          is apart from all things, it is impossible even to say.

          And mark how he pulls down their swelling pride: for he said not, "of
          the matters before us ye have not the proper knowledge," but, "about
          every thing." And he did not say, "ye," but, "no one whatever," be it
          Peter, be it Paul, be it any one else. For by this he both soothed
          them and carefully kept them under.

          Ver. 3. "But if any man love God, the same," he doth not
          say, "knoweth Him," but, "is known of Him." For we have not known
          Him, but He hath known us. And therefore did Christ say, "Ye have not
          chosen Me, but I have chosen you." And Paul elsewhere, "Then shall I
          know fully, even as also I have been known."

          Observe now, I pray, by what means he brings down their high-
          mindedness. First, he points out that not they alone knew the things
          which they knew; for "we all," he saith," have knowledge." Next, that
          the thing itself was hurtful so long as it was without love;
          for "knowledge," saith he, "puffeth up." Thirdly, that even joined
          with love it is not complete nor perfect. "For if any man thinketh
          that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing as yet as he ought to
          know," so he speaks. In addition to this, that they have not even
          this from themselves, but by gift from God. For he said not, "hath
          known God," but, "is known of Him." Again, that this very thing comes
          of love which they have not as they ought. For, "if any man," saith
          he, "love God, the same is known of Him." Having then so much at
          large allayed their irritation, he begins to speak doctrinally,
          saying thus.

          ---
          More to come,
          gmw.



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        • Deejay
          Hi, Tommy, This may be worth a look... tis too late for me to read closely but looks at least half decent at first glance. Proverbs 26:12 ~Deejay ... From:
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 19, 2003
            Hi,  Tommy,
             
            This may be worth a look... 'tis too late for me to read closely but looks at least half decent at first glance.
             
             
            ~Deejay
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 2:36 PM
            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Research Question.

            Thanks Bro,
             
            In addition to anything on 1 Cor. 8:1b-3, I'm looking for sermons or commentary on Proverbs 26:12.
             
            Tom

            weeping_calvinist <raging.calvinist@...> wrote:
            Hey bro,

            Here's John Chrysostom awhile, but I'll dig up some more too:

            Homily XX.

            1 Corinthians chapter 8, verse 1 Now concerning things sacrificed to
            idols: we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but
            love edifieth.

            IT is necessary first to say what the meaning of this passage is: for
            so shall we readily comprehend the Apostle's discourse. For he that
            sees a charge brought against any one, except he first perceive the
            nature of the offence will not understand what is said. What then is
            it of which he was then accusing the Corinthians? A heavy charge and
            the cause of many evils. Well, what is it? Many among them, having
            learnt that (St. Matthew chapter 15, verse 11) "not the things which
            enter in defile the man, but the things which proceed out," and that
            idols of wood and stone, and demons, have no power to hurt or help,
            had made an immoderate use of their perfect knowledge of this to the
            harm both of others and of themselves. They had both gone in where
            idols were and had partaken of the tables there, and were producing
            thereby great and ruinous evil. For, on the one hand, those who still
            retained the fear of idols and knew not how to contemn them, took
            part in those meals, because they saw the more perfect sort doing
            this; and hence they got the greatest injury: since they did not
            touch what was set before them with the same mind as the others, but
            as things offered in sacrifice to idols; and the thing was becoming a
            way to idolatry. On the other hand, these very persons who pretended
            to be more perfect were injured in no common way, partaking in the
            tables of demons.

            This then was the subject of complaint. Now this blessed man being
            about to correct it, did not immediately begin to speak vehemently;
            for that which was done came more of folly than of wickedness:
            wherefore in the first instance there was need rather of exhortation
            than of severe rebuke and wrath. Now herein observe his good sense,
            how he immediately begins to admonish.

            "Now concerning things sacrificed to idols,we know that we all have
            knowledge." Leaving alone the weak, which he always doth, he
            discourses with the strong first. And this is what he did also in the
            Epistle to the Romans, saying, (Romans chapter 14, verse 10) "But
            thou, why dost thou judge thy brother?" for this is the sort of
            person that is able to receive rebuke also with readiness. Exactly
            the same then he doth here also.

            And first he makes void their conceit by declaring that this very
            thing which they considered as peculiar to themselves, the having
            perfect knowledge, was common to all. Thus, "we know," saith
            he, "that we all have knowledge." For if allowing them to have high
            thoughts, he had first pointed out how hurtful the thing was to
            others, he would not have done them so much good as harm. For the
            ambitious soul when it plumes itself upon any thing, even though the
            same do harm to others, yet strongly adheres to it because of the
            tyranny of vain-glory. Wherefore Paul first examines the matter
            itself by itself: just as he had done before in the case of the
            wisdom from without, demolishing it with a high hand. But in that
            case he did it as we might have expected: for the whole thing was
            altogether blameworthy and his task was very easy. Wherefore he
            signifies it to be not only useless, but even contrary to the Gospel.
            But in the present case it was not possible to do this. For what was
            done was of knowledge, and perfect knowledge. Nor was it safe to
            overthrow it, and yet in no other way was it possible to cast out the
            conceit which had resulted from it. What then doeth he? First, by
            signifying that it was common, he curbs that swelling pride of
            theirs. For they who possess something great and excellent are more
            elated, when they alone have it; but if it be made out that they
            possess it in common with others, they no longer have so much of this
            feeling. First then he makes it common property, because they
            considered it to belong to themselves alone.

            Next, having made it common, he does not make himself singly a sharer
            in it with them; for in this way too he would have rather set them
            up; for as to be the only possessor elates, so to have one partner or
            two perhaps among leading persons has this effect just as much. For
            this reason he does not mention himself but all: he said not, "I too
            have knowledge," but, "we know that we all have knowledge."

            [2.] This then is one way, and the first, by which he cast down their
            pride; the next hath greater force. What then is this? In that he
            shews that not even this thing itself was in all points complete, but
            imperfect, and extremely so. And not only imperfect, but also
            injurious, unless there were another thing joined together with it.
            For having said that" we have knowledge," he added, "Knowledge
            puffeth up, but love edifieth:" so that when it is without love, it
            lifts men up to absolute arrogance.

            "And yet not even love," you will say, "without knowledge hath any
            advantage." Well: this he did not say; but omitting it as a thing
            allowed by all, he signifies that knowledge stands in extreme need of
            love. For he who loves, inasmuch as he fulfils the commandment which
            is most absolute of all, even though he have some defects, will
            quickly be blest with knowledge because of his love; as Cornelius and
            many others. But he that hath knowledge but hath not love, not only
            shall gain nothing more, but shall also be cast out of that which he
            hath, in many cases falling into arrogance. It seems then that
            knowledge is not productive of love, but on the contrary debars from
            it him that is not on his guard, puffing him up and elating him. For
            arrogance is wont to causedivisions: but love both draws together
            andleads to knowledge. And to make this plain he saith, "But if any
            man loveth God, the same isknown of Him." So that "I forbid not
            this," saith he, "namely, your having perfect knowledge; but your
            having it with love, that I enjoin; else is it no gain, but rather
            loss."

            Do you see how he already sounds the first note of his discourse
            concerning love? For since all these evils were springing from the
            following root, i. e., not from perfect knowledge, but from their not
            greatly loving nor sparing their neighbors; whence ensued both their
            variance and their self-satisfaction, and all the rest which he had
            charged them with; both before this and after he is continually
            providing for love; so correcting the fountain of all good
            things. "Now why," saith he, "are ye puffed up about knowledge? For
            if ye have not love, ye shall even be injured thereby. For what is
            worse than boasting? But if the other be added, the first also will
            be in safety. For although you may know something more than your
            neighbor, if you love him you will not set yourself up but lead him
            also to the same." Wherefore also having said, "Knowledge puffeth
            up," he added, "but love edifieth." He did not say, "Behaveth itself
            modestly," but what is much more, and more gainful. For their
            knowledge was not only puffing them up but also distracting them. On
            this account he opposes the one to the other.

            [3.] And then he adds a third consideration, which was of force to
            set them down. What then is this? that although charity be joined
            with it, yet not even in that case is this our knowledge perfect. And
            therefore he adds,

            Ver. 2. "But if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth
            nothing yet as he ought to know." This is a mortal blow. "I dwell
            not," saith he, "on the knowledge being common to all. I say not that
            by hating your neighbor and by arrogance, you injure yourself most.
            But even though you have it by yourself alone, though you be modest,
            though you love your brother, even in this case you are imperfect in
            regard of knowledge. "For as yet thou knowest nothing as thou
            oughtest to know," Now if we possess as yet exact knowledge of
            nothing, how is it that some have rushed on to such a pitch of frenzy
            as to say that they know God with all exactness? Whereas, though we
            had an exact knowledge of all other things, not even so were it
            possible to possess this knowledge to such an extent. For how far He
            is apart from all things, it is impossible even to say.

            And mark how he pulls down their swelling pride: for he said not, "of
            the matters before us ye have not the proper knowledge," but, "about
            every thing." And he did not say, "ye," but, "no one whatever," be it
            Peter, be it Paul, be it any one else. For by this he both soothed
            them and carefully kept them under.

            Ver. 3. "But if any man love God, the same," he doth not
            say, "knoweth Him," but, "is known of Him." For we have not known
            Him, but He hath known us. And therefore did Christ say, "Ye have not
            chosen Me, but I have chosen you." And Paul elsewhere, "Then shall I
            know fully, even as also I have been known."

            Observe now, I pray, by what means he brings down their high-
            mindedness. First, he points out that not they alone knew the things
            which they knew; for "we all," he saith," have knowledge." Next, that
            the thing itself was hurtful so long as it was without love;
            for "knowledge," saith he, "puffeth up." Thirdly, that even joined
            with love it is not complete nor perfect. "For if any man thinketh
            that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing as yet as he ought to
            know," so he speaks. In addition to this, that they have not even
            this from themselves, but by gift from God. For he said not, "hath
            known God," but, "is known of Him." Again, that this very thing comes
            of love which they have not as they ought. For, "if any man," saith
            he, "love God, the same is known of Him." Having then so much at
            large allayed their irritation, he begins to speak doctrinally,
            saying thus.

            ---
            More to come,
            gmw.



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          • weeping_calvinist
            Ok, I found Charles Hodge on 1 Corinthians 8:1-3: 1. Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 21, 2003
              Ok, I found Charles Hodge on 1 Corinthians 8:1-3:

              1. Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have
              knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

              The idolatry of the Greeks and Romans pervaded their whole life. Their
              social intercourse, their feasts, the administration of justice, the
              public amusements, the offices and honors of the government, were all
              more or less connected with religious services. Christians,
              therefore, were constantly exposed to the danger of being involved in
              some idolatrous homage without even knowing it. This gave rise to
              numerous and perplexing questions of conscience, which were often
              decided differently by different classes of Christians. One of the
              most perplexing of these questions related to the use of things
              offered to idols. Some had no scruples on this point; others thought
              it sinful to eat of such sacrifices under any circumstances. This was
              a question which it was necessary to have authoritatively settled,
              because it came up every day for decision.

              The victims offered in sacrifices were usually divided into three
              parts. One was consumed on the altar, another was given to the
              priest, and a third was retained by the offerer. The portion given to
              the priest, if not needed for himself, was sent to the market. The
              portion retained by the offerer was either eaten at his own table, or
              within the precincts of the temple. The Christians, therefore, if
              they bought meat in the market, or if invited to the houses of their
              heathen friends, or to the festivals in the temples, were
              liable to have these sacrifices placed before them. The two grounds on
              which the more liberal of them defended the use of such meat, were,
              first, that the idols were nothing, they were not really gods; and
              secondly, that meat cannot commend us to God. Both these principles
              are true, and therefore the apostle concedes them, but at the same
              time corrects the practical inferences which the Gentile converts
              drew from them. There were really two distinct questions relating to
              this subject. The first was, whether eating such sacrifices was
              lawful? the other, whether it was lawful to eat them within the
              precincts of the temple? The apostle does not distinguish these
              questions until the tenth chapter. Here he speaks of the
              subject only in its general aspects.

              Now as touching things offered unto idols. Literally, But, concerning
              idol-sacrifices. The particle (de>,) but, serves to introduce a new
              topic. As the fourth verse begins, concerning therefore the eating
              things offered to idols, the intervening words are a logical
              parenthesis. This parenthesis may begin immediately after the word
              idols, or after the word knowledge, so that the first two clauses of
              the verse are connected. "But concerning idol-sacrifices, we know we
              all have knowledge." This claim to knowledge, though a claim of the
              Corinthians, and the ground on which they defended the eating of
              those sacrifices, is not put forward as a point to be contested.
              The apostle adopts it, or makes it his own, and then proceeds to
              qualify and limit it, precisely as he did with the aphorism, "All
              things are lawful," in 6:12; see also 10:23. The subject of the two
              verbs know and have in this verse are not necessarily the same. The
              sense may be: `I know we all have knowledge.' The knowledge intended
              is determined by the context.

              It is the knowledge concerning idols. In this verse Paul says, "We
              all have knowledge;" but in v. 7, he says, "This knowledge is not in
              all." This apparent contradiction may be explained by supposing, what
              is perfectly natural, that the apostle has reference to different
              classes of persons in the two passages. In v. 1 he may intend himself
              and his followers. We all, that is, all the stronger or more
              enlightened class of believers. Whereas, in v. 7, he may refer to
              Christians generally, including the strong and weak. `This
              knowledge is not in all, for the weak have it not.' Or the
              distinction may be between theoretical and practical knowledge. All
              Christians admit, as a matter of theory, that an idol is nothing, but
              this knowledge is not in all believers practical and controlling.
              This also is natural and satisfactory. It is analogous to the
              statements of this same apostle in reference to the heathen. In
              Romans 1:23, he says, `They know God,' but in 1 Corinthians 1:21, he
              says, they `know not God.' These statements are perfectly consistent,
              because the word know has different senses. There is a sense in which
              all men know God; they all, from the constitution of their nature,
              and from the works of God, know that there is a being on whom
              they are dependent, and to whom they are responsible. But this is not
              the knowledge of God which is said to be "eternal life." It is
              therefore perfectly consistent to attribute the former knowledge to
              the heathen, though he denies to them the latter. So here it is
              consistent to say that all Christians have a theoretical knowledge of
              the truth that there is but one God, and that idols are nothing, and
              yet say that this knowledge is not practical and controlling in all.
              It is one of the great beauties of the Scriptures, that the sacred
              writers in the calm consciousness of truth, in the use of popular, as
              distinguished from philosophical language, affirm and deny the same
              verbal proposition, assured that the consistency and intent of their
              statements will make their way to the heart and conscience. That the
              apostle is here speaking of theoretical, as distinguished from true,
              practical knowledge, is plain from what he says of it. It puffeth up.
              The Greek word here used (fusio>w,) is, in the New Testament,
              employed in the sense of the word (fusa>w,) which means to blow, to
              fill with wind, to inflate, and then, to render vain and conceited.
              Mere theoretical or speculative knowledge, that is, knowledge
              divorced from love, tends to inflate the mind, i.e. renders it vain
              and conceited. It is a great mistake, therefore, to suppose that
              there knowledge, without religion, elevates and refines men, or can
              purify society. It is essential, but it is insufficient.

              Charity edifieth. Charity is an inadequate and unhappy translation of
              the Greek word (agape), because, agreeably to its Latin derivation,
              it properly means the feeling which arises from the perception of the
              wants and sufferings of others, and the consequent desire to relieve
              them. Love (agape, a word peculiar to Hellenistic Greek,) is much more
              comprehensive than this, not only because it may have God for its
              object, but also because, when exercised towards men it includes
              complacency and delight as well as benevolence. It is of this
              comprehensive virtue the apostle treats at length in the thirteenth
              chapter of this epistle, and of which he here says, it edifies. It
              does not terminate on itself, as knowledge does, but goes out of
              itself, and seeks it happiness in another, and lives and
              acts for others. It is, therefore, something incomparably higher than
              knowledge, when the two are separated and distinguished.

              2. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing
              yet as he ought to know.

              The knowledge which puffs up is not true knowledge. One is constantly
              astonished at the profound remarks which every where occur in the
              sacred writings; remarks which do not directly refer to the mysteries
              of the gospel, but philosophical remarks; that is, such as reveal the
              deepest insight into the nature of man and the workings of his
              constitution. Philosophy and theology are inseparably connected. The
              former is an element of the latter. A system of philosophy might be
              constructed by collecting and classifying the aphorisms of the Bible.
              And the reason why the philosophy which underlies Augustinianism has
              stood as a rock in the ocean, while other systems rise and fall like
              waves around it, is, that it is derived from the word of God, and not
              from the speculations of men. The relation between the cognitive and
              emotional faculties is one of the most difficult problems in
              philosophy. In many systems they are regarded as distinct. Paul here
              teaches, that with regard to a large class of objects, knowledge
              without feeling is nothing; it supposes the most essential
              characteristics of the object to be unperceived. And in the following
              verse he teaches that love is the highest form of knowledge. To know
              God is to love him; and to love him is to know him. Love is
              intelligent, and knowledge is emotional. Hence the apostle says, If a
              man thinketh that he knoweth any thing; that is, if he is proud or
              conceited, he is ignorant. He does not apprehend the true nature of
              the objects which he pretends to know. He does not see their
              vastness, their complexity, their majesty and excellence. These are
              the attributes of religious truths which are the most essential, and
              without the apprehension of which they cannot be known.

              3. But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

              To love is to know and to be known. Compare 1 John 4:7, 8, "Every one
              that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God; he that loveth not,
              knoweth not God, for God is love." This is the precise sentiment of
              the text. Love is essential to knowledge. He that loves God, knows
              God. The apostle in this connection interchanges love of the brethren
              and the love of God, because the love of the brethren is only one of
              the forms in which the love of God manifests itself. When he
              said, "Love edifieth," he meant love to the brethren, and without
              that love, he says, there can be no true knowledge; but if a man love
              God, (which includes love to the brethren,) the same is known of him.
              What is meant by this last expression, is not easy to determine. To
              be known of God may, according to scriptural usage, mean,

              1. To be selected or approved by him, <023312>Exodus 33:12, 17. Nahum
              1:7. Matthew 7:23.

              2. To be recognized as belonging to a particular class. So here, the
              sense may be, `Is recognized by him as one of his disciples, or as
              one of his children,

              3. To be the object of God's knowledge; but what this can mean in this
              connection, unless it include the idea of approbation, it is not easy
              to see.

              4. According to others, the word (e]gnwstai) is to be taken in a
              Hophal sense —'has been caused to know.' `If any man loves God, the
              same has by him been brought to the true knowledge.' This view
              certainly suits the context. `If a man is without love, he has not
              true knowledge; but if he love God, he has the right kind of
              knowledge.'

              The later grammarians deny that the passive form of Greek verbs ever
              has a causative sense analogous to the Hophal of Hebrew verbs. But as
              intransitive verbs in Greek often have a causative signification,
              (see Matthew 5:45; 28:19; 2 Corinthians 2:14,) it is not unreasonable
              that the passive form should be so used, if the context require it.
              In Galatians 4:9, Paul says, "If after that ye have known God, or
              rather are known of God;" where the sense may be, `or rather have
              been taught of God.' Whether the general principle be admitted or
              not, that the passive of Greek verbs can have this causative force,
              it is not improbable that Paul assumed that the particular verb
              ginw>skein might mean cognoscere facere, (i.e. to teach,) a sense
              attributed to it by Stephanus in his Thesaurus; and if so,
              the passive as here used may mean, was taught. It is to be noticed,
              that it is only this verb that he appears to use in this way. If,
              however, this interpretation be rejected, as is done by the majority
              of modern commentators, as contrary to Greek usage, the first
              explanation given above gives a good sense. `If any love God, the
              same is approved of him, i.e. is recognized as having the right kind
              of knowledge.'
              ---
              (end Hodge)

              Hope this is helpful,

              gmw.
            • weeping_calvinist
              By the way, The subject matter you seem to be looking into is important for all of us to note. Knowledge apart from love, is destructive, because men, in
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 21, 2003
                By the way,

                The subject matter you seem to be looking into is important for all
                of us to note. Knowledge apart from love, is destructive, because
                men, in their sin, use it to build themselves up to the detriment of
                others. But the knowledge we receive when we are taught of God, is
                used to edify others, and this is because of "love."

                Love is what the Bible holds forth a main fruit of the Christians.
                Do you love God (by keeping His commandments)? Do you love the
                brethren (in the keeping of the commandments)? The commandments are
                summed up by "Love the Lord thy God..., and love thy neighbor as
                thyself." Love, according to knowledge, but never knowledge without
                love.

                If you haven't read Luther's sermon on Christian love, you may want
                to do so. If you have read it, you may wish to read it again (the
                first time we read it, the tendency may be to think "Hey! This
                unloving S.O.B. Luther's describing sounds like someone I know!"
                This time, read it and ask, "Is this unloving jerk me?").

                http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_love.html

                gmw.
              • Thomas Britton
                I ll read Luther, but I can already tell you the answer is an emphatic Yes. BTW, Have a gander at what Jonathan Edwards says concerning when knowlege puffs up:
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 21, 2003
                  I'll read Luther, but I can already tell you the answer is an emphatic Yes.
                   
                  BTW, Have a gander at what Jonathan Edwards says concerning when knowlege puffs up:
                   
                  Undetected Spiritual Pride One Cause of Failure in Times of Great Revival
                   
                  I appreciate y'all helping me think through this,
                   
                  Tom

                  weeping_calvinist <raging.calvinist@...> wrote:
                  By the way,

                  The subject matter you seem to be looking into is important for all
                  of us to note.  Knowledge apart from love, is destructive, because
                  men, in their sin, use it to build themselves up to the detriment of
                  others.  But the knowledge we receive when we are taught of God, is
                  used to edify others, and this is because of "love."

                  Love is what the Bible holds forth a main fruit of the Christians. 
                  Do you love God (by keeping His commandments)?  Do you love the
                  brethren (in the keeping of the commandments)?  The commandments are
                  summed up by "Love the Lord thy God..., and love thy neighbor as
                  thyself."  Love, according to knowledge, but never knowledge without
                  love.

                  If you haven't read Luther's sermon on Christian love, you may want
                  to do so.  If you have read it, you may wish to read it again (the
                  first time we read it, the tendency may be to think "Hey!  This
                  unloving S.O.B. Luther's describing sounds like someone I know!" 
                  This time, read it and ask, "Is this unloving jerk me?").

                  http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_love.html

                  gmw.



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