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Christ in "complete isolation" from the Father???

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  • weeping_calvinist
    Joined the WestminsterShorterCatechismApplied group, just because... and here s what I found in the very first post in the group: Where was Christ before He
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 18, 2003
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      Joined the WestminsterShorterCatechismApplied group, just because...
      and here's what I found in the very first post in the group:

      "Where was Christ before He rose from the dead on the third day?
      Christ was in hell, that is, our Redeemer was in complete isolation
      from the Father."

      Now, I know the Westminster Standards define "descended into hell"
      as "continuing under the power of death for a time." And Calvin
      argues that it means that Christ was in deep soul anguish... but "in
      complete isolation from the Father" is new to me.

      gmw.
    • Dan Fraas
      Since all existence is ultimately defined and determined by Jehovah, the self-existent One, I don t think it s possible for someone to be in complete
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 18, 2003
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        Since all existence is ultimately defined and determined by Jehovah,
        the self-existent One, I don't think it's possible for someone to
        be "in complete isolation from the Father", even in hell. However
        one can be completely isolated from His blessings, which I suppose
        Jesus was for a time.

        Riley
        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "weeping_calvinist"
        <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
        > Joined the WestminsterShorterCatechismApplied group, just
        because...
        > and here's what I found in the very first post in the group:
        >
        > "Where was Christ before He rose from the dead on the third day?
        > Christ was in hell, that is, our Redeemer was in complete isolation
        > from the Father."
        >
        > Now, I know the Westminster Standards define "descended into hell"
        > as "continuing under the power of death for a time." And Calvin
        > argues that it means that Christ was in deep soul anguish...
        but "in
        > complete isolation from the Father" is new to me.
        >
        > gmw.
      • nocost2great
        ... because... ... but in ... Jerry, I have always heard that growing up in Southern Baptist circles, never from a reformed perspective... How would they
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 18, 2003
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          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "weeping_calvinist"
          <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
          > Joined the WestminsterShorterCatechismApplied group, just
          because...
          > and here's what I found in the very first post in the group:
          >
          > "Where was Christ before He rose from the dead on the third day?
          > Christ was in hell, that is, our Redeemer was in complete isolation
          > from the Father."
          >
          > Now, I know the Westminster Standards define "descended into hell"
          > as "continuing under the power of death for a time." And Calvin
          > argues that it means that Christ was in deep soul anguish...
          but "in
          > complete isolation from the Father" is new to me.
          >
          > gmw.
          Jerry,
          I have always heard that growing up in Southern Baptist circles,
          never from a reformed perspective...
          How would they reconcile Ps 139:7 and following? "Where can I go from
          Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend into
          heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are
          there." I don't know the languages but would be interested to know if
          it is the same word in both instances?
          I guess the isolation arguement is based on Jesus' words 'why hast
          thou forsaken me' but it is difficult to comprehend how the Son could
          be in TOTAL isolation from the Father since they are of the same
          substance. But then I am simple minded....

          Dee Dee
        • weeping_calvinist
          ... Exactly, Dee Dee. It is one thing to say that Christ in the atonement was subjected to a lack of the sensible presence of the Father, but I cannot see how
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 18, 2003
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            > I guess the isolation arguement is based on Jesus' words 'why hast
            > thou forsaken me' but it is difficult to comprehend how the Son
            > could be in TOTAL isolation from the Father since they are of the
            > same substance.

            Exactly, Dee Dee. It is one thing to say that Christ in the
            atonement was subjected to a lack of the sensible presence of the
            Father, but I cannot see how this can be said to be a lack of the
            ACTUAL presence of the Father, without being absurd and unbiblical.

            So, Dee Dee, are you saying that in your Southern Baptist background,
            you've heard it asserted that Christ was actually isolated from the
            Father? I've honestly never heard this.

            The Papists and the Lutherans argue that Christ actually descended
            into Hell, in a quite literal sense (the Lutherans content with
            believing even though they cannot quite explain what it means). And
            the Continental Reformed generally say the descent into Hell means to
            be overwhelmed in anguish and torment. The Presbyterians believe it
            means to be "under the power of death for a time." Yet none of them
            argue a total isolation of Christ from the Father, as far as I can
            tell. (It should be noted that while the Continental Reformed and
            the Presbies are in disagreement about what "descended into hell"
            means exactly, the CR's do not deny that Christ remained under the
            power of death for a time, and the Presbies do not deny that Christ
            suffered soul-torment -- so neither side (unless I'm blind as a bat)
            is denying the descent into hell (whether it means one thing or the
            other, both sides agree that those things happened), except to deny
            the descent into hell in the Popish and Lutheran sense.

            Anyway, thanks for the input, Dee Dee. This "complete isolation"
            stuff reminds of a while back when a guy in one of the Yahoo groups
            was saying that God the Father suspended His love of God the Son for
            a spell in an effort to support his denial of God's unconditional
            love -- the proof of this was supposedly "Why have you forsaken me?"
            What some people conclude based on one phrase.

            gmw.
          • nocost2great
            ... hast ... unbiblical. ... background, ... Yup, maybe it is just the particular congregations/pastors that I was associated with, but they also taught that
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 21, 2003
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              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "weeping_calvinist"
              <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
              > > I guess the isolation arguement is based on Jesus' words 'why
              hast
              > > thou forsaken me' but it is difficult to comprehend how the Son
              > > could be in TOTAL isolation from the Father since they are of the
              > > same substance.
              >
              > Exactly, Dee Dee. It is one thing to say that Christ in the
              > atonement was subjected to a lack of the sensible presence of the
              > Father, but I cannot see how this can be said to be a lack of the
              > ACTUAL presence of the Father, without being absurd and
              unbiblical.
              >
              > So, Dee Dee, are you saying that in your Southern Baptist
              background,
              > you've heard it asserted that Christ was actually isolated from the
              > Father? I've honestly never heard this.
              >
              Yup, maybe it is just the particular congregations/pastors that I was
              associated with, but they also taught that Jesus literally descended
              into hell (where he fought and won the battle against Satan.) They
              also taught that God the Father 'turned his face away' and totally
              forsook him during this time. I don't guess I ever heard the exact
              words total isolation, but it was definitely implied.

              Dee Dee, in total awe that the triune God called me out of the false
              teaching and complacency I had come to so enjoy
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