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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Hello

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  • Thomas Roche
    How do you go about ascertaining the existence of error in the WCF? If someone suggests X point therein is erroneous, who gets to judge, and on what basis?
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 31, 2003
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      How do you go about ascertaining the existence of
      error in the WCF? If someone suggests X point therein
      is erroneous, who gets to judge, and on what basis?

      --- Susan <susan_wilkinson@...> wrote:
      > Hi again, MwM.
      >
      > I don't know a soul who believes the WCF is equal to
      > the Bible! That
      > would be bad. I also don't know of any Presbyterian
      > Churches that use
      > the WCF as their "rule of worship." That would be
      > bad too. No, the WCF
      > is not, "inspired and equal to Holy writ." And
      > finally, yes the WCF
      > could be in error.
      >
      > Now, all that said, that doesn't mean that we
      > believe that the WCF IS
      > in error or that it ISN'T a faithful summary of what
      > the Scriptures
      > teach. The Divines believed that the WCF did indeed
      > correctly
      > summarize the main doctrines of Scripture. Some of
      > us just happen to
      > agree with them. Just because we believe it agrees
      > with Scripture
      > doesn't mean we worship the document or put it
      > over/above Scripture.
      >
      > Hope that makes sense.
      > Susan
      >
      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
      > milkyway_man1961
      > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > One other thing I had forgotten to ask, do those
      > here in this group
      > > believe the Westminster Confession of faith to be
      > equal to the Bible
      > > or is it just a man ordained document that the
      > Presbyterian Church
      > > uses as it's rule of worship?
      > >
      > > In other words is the WMCOF inspired and equal to
      > Holy writ? Would
      > > like to know how others feel. Can the WMCOF be in
      > error or is it
      > > perfect with out fault?
      > > Learning new things every day.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Thanks.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > MwM
      >
      >


      =====
      Dr. Thomas P. Roche
      Librarian
      The Marvelwood School
      476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001
      Kent, CT 06757
      tertullianus_2000@...
      (my opinions do not reflect those of my employer)

      __________________________________________________
      Do you Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
      http://platinum.yahoo.com
    • Susan
      Well, wouldn t that depend on whether or not you believe that Presbyterial Church Government is of Divine Right or not? Everyone has a confession, whether it s
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 31, 2003
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        Well, wouldn't that depend on whether or not you believe that
        Presbyterial Church Government is of Divine Right or not?

        Everyone has a confession, whether it's written or not. How does
        anyone go about ascertaining the existence of error in
        another's confession? Who gets to judge and on what basis? It's too
        easy to say "on the basis of the Word of God" because the
        interpretation of that is exactly what's in question, is it not?

        Susan

        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Roche
        <tertullianus_2000@y...> wrote:
        > How do you go about ascertaining the existence of
        > error in the WCF? If someone suggests X point therein
        > is erroneous, who gets to judge, and on what basis?
        >
        > --- Susan <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
        > > Hi again, MwM.
        > >
        > > I don't know a soul who believes the WCF is equal to
        > > the Bible! That
        > > would be bad. I also don't know of any Presbyterian
        > > Churches that use
        > > the WCF as their "rule of worship." That would be
        > > bad too. No, the WCF
        > > is not, "inspired and equal to Holy writ." And
        > > finally, yes the WCF
        > > could be in error.
        > >
        > > Now, all that said, that doesn't mean that we
        > > believe that the WCF IS
        > > in error or that it ISN'T a faithful summary of what
        > > the Scriptures
        > > teach. The Divines believed that the WCF did indeed
        > > correctly
        > > summarize the main doctrines of Scripture. Some of
        > > us just happen to
        > > agree with them. Just because we believe it agrees
        > > with Scripture
        > > doesn't mean we worship the document or put it
        > > over/above Scripture.
        > >
        > > Hope that makes sense.
        > > Susan
        > >
        > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
        > > milkyway_man1961
        > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > > One other thing I had forgotten to ask, do those
        > > here in this group
        > > > believe the Westminster Confession of faith to be
        > > equal to the Bible
        > > > or is it just a man ordained document that the
        > > Presbyterian Church
        > > > uses as it's rule of worship?
        > > >
        > > > In other words is the WMCOF inspired and equal to
        > > Holy writ? Would
        > > > like to know how others feel. Can the WMCOF be in
        > > error or is it
        > > > perfect with out fault?
        > > > Learning new things every day.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Thanks.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > MwM
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > =====
        > Dr. Thomas P. Roche
        > Librarian
        > The Marvelwood School
        > 476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001
        > Kent, CT 06757
        > tertullianus_2000@y...
        > (my opinions do not reflect those of my employer)
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your
        desktop!
        > http://platinum.yahoo.com
      • Dan Fraas
        Jesus Christ is the judge and has the right to determine which, if any, parts of the WCF are in error. Until we meet Him face to face we will never know for
        Message 3 of 30 , Mar 31, 2003
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          Jesus Christ is the judge and has the right to determine which, if
          any, parts of the WCF are in error. Until we meet Him face to face
          we will never know for sure. We must admit it might contain errors
          since we interpret the Holy Scriptures as mere fallible men. I think
          this all sister Susan meant. As far as who has the authority to
          revise or alter a confession of faith, that legal authority would
          rest with a lawful General Assembly or General Synod. We may have
          disgreements over what constitutes a lawful General Assembly.

          For Christ's Crown and Covenant!

          Riley
          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
          <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
          > Well, wouldn't that depend on whether or not you believe that
          > Presbyterial Church Government is of Divine Right or not?
          >
          > Everyone has a confession, whether it's written or not. How does
          > anyone go about ascertaining the existence of error in
          > another's confession? Who gets to judge and on what basis? It's too
          > easy to say "on the basis of the Word of God" because the
          > interpretation of that is exactly what's in question, is it not?
          >
          > Susan
          >
          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Roche
          > <tertullianus_2000@y...> wrote:
          > > How do you go about ascertaining the existence of
          > > error in the WCF? If someone suggests X point therein
          > > is erroneous, who gets to judge, and on what basis?
          > >
          > > --- Susan <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
          > > > Hi again, MwM.
          > > >
          > > > I don't know a soul who believes the WCF is equal to
          > > > the Bible! That
          > > > would be bad. I also don't know of any Presbyterian
          > > > Churches that use
          > > > the WCF as their "rule of worship." That would be
          > > > bad too. No, the WCF
          > > > is not, "inspired and equal to Holy writ." And
          > > > finally, yes the WCF
          > > > could be in error.
          > > >
          > > > Now, all that said, that doesn't mean that we
          > > > believe that the WCF IS
          > > > in error or that it ISN'T a faithful summary of what
          > > > the Scriptures
          > > > teach. The Divines believed that the WCF did indeed
          > > > correctly
          > > > summarize the main doctrines of Scripture. Some of
          > > > us just happen to
          > > > agree with them. Just because we believe it agrees
          > > > with Scripture
          > > > doesn't mean we worship the document or put it
          > > > over/above Scripture.
          > > >
          > > > Hope that makes sense.
          > > > Susan
          > > >
          > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
          > > > milkyway_man1961
          > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > > > One other thing I had forgotten to ask, do those
          > > > here in this group
          > > > > believe the Westminster Confession of faith to be
          > > > equal to the Bible
          > > > > or is it just a man ordained document that the
          > > > Presbyterian Church
          > > > > uses as it's rule of worship?
          > > > >
          > > > > In other words is the WMCOF inspired and equal to
          > > > Holy writ? Would
          > > > > like to know how others feel. Can the WMCOF be in
          > > > error or is it
          > > > > perfect with out fault?
          > > > > Learning new things every day.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > MwM
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > =====
          > > Dr. Thomas P. Roche
          > > Librarian
          > > The Marvelwood School
          > > 476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001
          > > Kent, CT 06757
          > > tertullianus_2000@y...
          > > (my opinions do not reflect those of my employer)
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do you Yahoo!?
          > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your
          > desktop!
          > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
        • Susan
          Yeah, that. :) Thanks, Riley. Susan ... think ... too
          Message 4 of 30 , Mar 31, 2003
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            Yeah, that. :)

            Thanks, Riley.

            Susan

            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
            <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
            > Jesus Christ is the judge and has the right to determine which, if
            > any, parts of the WCF are in error. Until we meet Him face to face
            > we will never know for sure. We must admit it might contain errors
            > since we interpret the Holy Scriptures as mere fallible men. I
            think
            > this all sister Susan meant. As far as who has the authority to
            > revise or alter a confession of faith, that legal authority would
            > rest with a lawful General Assembly or General Synod. We may have
            > disgreements over what constitutes a lawful General Assembly.
            >
            > For Christ's Crown and Covenant!
            >
            > Riley
            > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
            > <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
            > > Well, wouldn't that depend on whether or not you believe that
            > > Presbyterial Church Government is of Divine Right or not?
            > >
            > > Everyone has a confession, whether it's written or not. How does
            > > anyone go about ascertaining the existence of error in
            > > another's confession? Who gets to judge and on what basis? It's
            too
            > > easy to say "on the basis of the Word of God" because the
            > > interpretation of that is exactly what's in question, is it not?
            > >
            > > Susan
            > >
            > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Roche
            > > <tertullianus_2000@y...> wrote:
            > > > How do you go about ascertaining the existence of
            > > > error in the WCF? If someone suggests X point therein
            > > > is erroneous, who gets to judge, and on what basis?
            > > >
            > > > --- Susan <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
            > > > > Hi again, MwM.
            > > > >
            > > > > I don't know a soul who believes the WCF is equal to
            > > > > the Bible! That
            > > > > would be bad. I also don't know of any Presbyterian
            > > > > Churches that use
            > > > > the WCF as their "rule of worship." That would be
            > > > > bad too. No, the WCF
            > > > > is not, "inspired and equal to Holy writ." And
            > > > > finally, yes the WCF
            > > > > could be in error.
            > > > >
            > > > > Now, all that said, that doesn't mean that we
            > > > > believe that the WCF IS
            > > > > in error or that it ISN'T a faithful summary of what
            > > > > the Scriptures
            > > > > teach. The Divines believed that the WCF did indeed
            > > > > correctly
            > > > > summarize the main doctrines of Scripture. Some of
            > > > > us just happen to
            > > > > agree with them. Just because we believe it agrees
            > > > > with Scripture
            > > > > doesn't mean we worship the document or put it
            > > > > over/above Scripture.
            > > > >
            > > > > Hope that makes sense.
            > > > > Susan
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
            > > > > milkyway_man1961
            > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > > > > > One other thing I had forgotten to ask, do those
            > > > > here in this group
            > > > > > believe the Westminster Confession of faith to be
            > > > > equal to the Bible
            > > > > > or is it just a man ordained document that the
            > > > > Presbyterian Church
            > > > > > uses as it's rule of worship?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > In other words is the WMCOF inspired and equal to
            > > > > Holy writ? Would
            > > > > > like to know how others feel. Can the WMCOF be in
            > > > > error or is it
            > > > > > perfect with out fault?
            > > > > > Learning new things every day.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Thanks.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > MwM
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > =====
            > > > Dr. Thomas P. Roche
            > > > Librarian
            > > > The Marvelwood School
            > > > 476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001
            > > > Kent, CT 06757
            > > > tertullianus_2000@y...
            > > > (my opinions do not reflect those of my employer)
            > > >
            > > > __________________________________________________
            > > > Do you Yahoo!?
            > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your
            > > desktop!
            > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
          • Thomas Roche
            What is a lawful General Assembly or a lawful General Synod? We have to know these things before we can speak not only of existing WCF doctrines/ their
            Message 5 of 30 , Mar 31, 2003
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              What is a lawful General Assembly or a lawful General
              Synod? We have to know these things before we can
              speak not only of existing WCF doctrines/ their
              accuracy, but of any future doctrinal pronouncements
              that might be made by the church?

              --- Dan Fraas <fraasrd@...> wrote:
              > Jesus Christ is the judge and has the right to
              > determine which, if
              > any, parts of the WCF are in error. Until we meet
              > Him face to face
              > we will never know for sure. We must admit it might
              > contain errors
              > since we interpret the Holy Scriptures as mere
              > fallible men. I think
              > this all sister Susan meant. As far as who has the
              > authority to
              > revise or alter a confession of faith, that legal
              > authority would
              > rest with a lawful General Assembly or General
              > Synod. We may have
              > disgreements over what constitutes a lawful General
              > Assembly.
              >
              > For Christ's Crown and Covenant!
              >
              > Riley
              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
              > "Susan"
              > <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
              > > Well, wouldn't that depend on whether or not you
              > believe that
              > > Presbyterial Church Government is of Divine Right
              > or not?
              > >
              > > Everyone has a confession, whether it's written or
              > not. How does
              > > anyone go about ascertaining the existence of
              > error in
              > > another's confession? Who gets to judge and on
              > what basis? It's too
              > > easy to say "on the basis of the Word of God"
              > because the
              > > interpretation of that is exactly what's in
              > question, is it not?
              > >
              > > Susan
              > >
              > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
              > Thomas Roche
              > > <tertullianus_2000@y...> wrote:
              > > > How do you go about ascertaining the existence
              > of
              > > > error in the WCF? If someone suggests X point
              > therein
              > > > is erroneous, who gets to judge, and on what
              > basis?
              > > >
              > > > --- Susan <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
              > > > > Hi again, MwM.
              > > > >
              > > > > I don't know a soul who believes the WCF is
              > equal to
              > > > > the Bible! That
              > > > > would be bad. I also don't know of any
              > Presbyterian
              > > > > Churches that use
              > > > > the WCF as their "rule of worship." That would
              > be
              > > > > bad too. No, the WCF
              > > > > is not, "inspired and equal to Holy writ." And
              > > > > finally, yes the WCF
              > > > > could be in error.
              > > > >
              > > > > Now, all that said, that doesn't mean that we
              > > > > believe that the WCF IS
              > > > > in error or that it ISN'T a faithful summary
              > of what
              > > > > the Scriptures
              > > > > teach. The Divines believed that the WCF did
              > indeed
              > > > > correctly
              > > > > summarize the main doctrines of Scripture.
              > Some of
              > > > > us just happen to
              > > > > agree with them. Just because we believe it
              > agrees
              > > > > with Scripture
              > > > > doesn't mean we worship the document or put it
              > > > > over/above Scripture.
              > > > >
              > > > > Hope that makes sense.
              > > > > Susan
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In
              > covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
              > > > > milkyway_man1961
              > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > > > > > One other thing I had forgotten to ask, do
              > those
              > > > > here in this group
              > > > > > believe the Westminster Confession of faith
              > to be
              > > > > equal to the Bible
              > > > > > or is it just a man ordained document that
              > the
              > > > > Presbyterian Church
              > > > > > uses as it's rule of worship?
              > > > > >
              > > > > > In other words is the WMCOF inspired and
              > equal to
              > > > > Holy writ? Would
              > > > > > like to know how others feel. Can the WMCOF
              > be in
              > > > > error or is it
              > > > > > perfect with out fault?
              > > > > > Learning new things every day.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Thanks.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > MwM
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > =====
              > > > Dr. Thomas P. Roche
              > > > Librarian
              > > > The Marvelwood School
              > > > 476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001
              > > > Kent, CT 06757
              > > > tertullianus_2000@y...
              > > > (my opinions do not reflect those of my
              > employer)
              > > >
              > > >
              > __________________________________________________
              > > > Do you Yahoo!?
              > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,
              > live on your
              > > desktop!
              > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
              >
              >


              =====
              Dr. Thomas P. Roche
              Librarian
              The Marvelwood School
              476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001
              Kent, CT 06757
              tertullianus_2000@...
              (my opinions do not reflect those of my employer)

              __________________________________________________
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
              http://platinum.yahoo.com
            • milkyway_man1961
              What is the opinion here of the WMCOF in modern English? I mean trying to read the whole Confession in it s original language, English 1600 s? can be tedious
              Message 6 of 30 , Mar 31, 2003
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                What is the opinion here of the WMCOF in modern English? I mean
                trying to read the whole Confession in it's original language,
                English 1600's? can be tedious to say the least.

                Is there a modern language version of the Confession? I know there
                are plenty of modern versions of the Bible on the market. It would
                make reading/understanding it a lot easier.
              • Deejay
                The only one I have seen and have a copy of tho only dip into it n ow and then and not read all through, is G.I. Wilkinson s study version. ~Deejay In
                Message 7 of 30 , Mar 31, 2003
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                  The only one I have seen and have a copy of tho only dip into it n
                  ow and then and not read all through, is G.I. Wilkinson's study
                  version.

                  ~Deejay

                  In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, milkyway_man1961
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > What is the opinion here of the WMCOF in modern English? I mean
                  > trying to read the whole Confession in it's original language,
                  > English 1600's? can be tedious to say the least.
                  >
                  > Is there a modern language version of the Confession? I know there
                  > are plenty of modern versions of the Bible on the market. It would
                  > make reading/understanding it a lot easier.
                • Deejay
                  My parents, for instance, are Reformed Baptists... Hey!! Reformed Baptists are kewl donchaknow. ;-) ~Deejay In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                  Message 8 of 30 , Mar 31, 2003
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                    "My parents, for instance, are Reformed Baptists..."

                    Hey!! Reformed Baptists are kewl donchaknow. ;-)

                    ~Deejay

                    In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                    <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
                    > Hi MwM, welcome. You sound very familiar. Have we met online
                    before?
                    > :)
                    >
                    > To answer you (as much as I'm able anyway):
                    >
                    > I am a Reformed Presbyterian and I believe in EP because I believe
                    it
                    > is the correct adherence to the Regulative Principle of
                    > Worship--to which I also hold. Lots of reformed folks don't
                    believe
                    > this though. My parents, for instance, are Reformed Baptists who
                    > believe in the RPW, but who believe it is rightly adhered to with
                    > Hymns included. They believe they have the "freedom in Christ" to
                    sing
                    > Hymns, whereas I don't believe I have that "freedom." I don't know
                    > whether they think I am breaking the Second Commandment by not
                    singing
                    > hymns or not; I've never asked them. They were here for lunch
                    > recently though so I suppose it's not coming between us too badly,
                    eh?
                    >
                    > We have discussed EP in this club many times. If you do a search
                    of
                    > the archives you should come up with some interesting stuff esp.
                    if
                    > you read posts by raging_calvinist and thebishopsdoom (and I'm
                    sure
                    > others, but I can't think of who they are at the moment).
                    >
                    > I can't speak for others, but I believe anyone who is a true
                    believer
                    > in Christ should be considered "Reformed" in the sense that any
                    true
                    > believer is being sanctified in the whole man, and is therefore,
                    > reforming. I have many friends in many different denominations.
                    The
                    > one thing that connects them all is a true love of Christ and a
                    desire
                    > to know Him and obey Him more and more. What else can we ask of
                    > anyone? That's the most any of us can really hope for, isn't it?
                    >
                    > Susan
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, milkyway_man1961
                    > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > > Was wondering if any here could tell me what exactly do those in
                    the
                    > > Reformed Presbyterian Church believe concerning the singing of
                    hymns
                    > > in public worship and if it is considered a form of idolatry by
                    > those
                    > > in that denomination.
                    > > Have heard a lot of things from different groups and wanted to
                    know
                    > > if the allegations were true, and if so why. Does the Bible it
                    self
                    > > teach that any other songs sung in worship besides Psalms is
                    > > forbidden, or is that just some thing that some have read into
                    the
                    > > scriptures without warrant?
                    > > If the singing of hymns is wrong and those who do sing them are
                    > > committing idolatry, should those who are in those churches then
                    > > leave and find a more reformed Church that does subscribe to
                    > psalmody?
                    > > Not too many churches around that sing only psalms.
                    > > Also, are those who are not part of the Reformed Presbyterian
                    Church
                    >
                    > > considered less then reformed, like those who are members of the
                    > PCA,
                    > > reformed baptist, OPC, etc,etc,etc. Do you consider them to be
                    > > reformed 'lite'? or deformed in their theology? and if so does
                    that
                    > > mean that they have no right to call themselves reformed?
                    > > Just wondering what others thought. looking forward to any
                    replies.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > MwM
                  • Matt O'Bryant
                    ... believe the Westminster Confession of faith to be equal to the Bible or is it just a man ordained document that the Presbyterian Church uses as it s rule
                    Message 9 of 30 , Mar 31, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      >do those here in this group
                      believe the Westminster Confession of faith to be equal to the Bible
                      or is it just a man ordained document that the Presbyterian Church
                      uses as it's rule of worship?

                      MattO:No, and neither does any Presbyterian I know think of the WCF as
                      equal to the Holy Scriptures. What we do think, if I may speak for
                      others, is that the WCF is among the finest and most sound summaries of
                      the doctrines of God revealed in His written word.

                      It is put together by man, good men of the faith who in precision and
                      detail, put forth a Confession which is sound and consistent. That does
                      not mean that the men were infallible, nor that the document is
                      inspired.

                      Matt O'Bryant
                    • Dan Fraas
                      What is a lawful General Assembly or a lawful General ... I don t know. I m not sure. Riley ... desktop!
                      Message 10 of 30 , Apr 1, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        "What is a lawful General Assembly or a lawful General
                        > Synod?"

                        I don't know. I'm not sure.

                        Riley
                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Roche
                        <tertullianus_2000@y...> wrote:
                        > What is a lawful General Assembly or a lawful General
                        > Synod? We have to know these things before we can
                        > speak not only of existing WCF doctrines/ their
                        > accuracy, but of any future doctrinal pronouncements
                        > that might be made by the church?
                        >
                        > --- Dan Fraas <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
                        > > Jesus Christ is the judge and has the right to
                        > > determine which, if
                        > > any, parts of the WCF are in error. Until we meet
                        > > Him face to face
                        > > we will never know for sure. We must admit it might
                        > > contain errors
                        > > since we interpret the Holy Scriptures as mere
                        > > fallible men. I think
                        > > this all sister Susan meant. As far as who has the
                        > > authority to
                        > > revise or alter a confession of faith, that legal
                        > > authority would
                        > > rest with a lawful General Assembly or General
                        > > Synod. We may have
                        > > disgreements over what constitutes a lawful General
                        > > Assembly.
                        > >
                        > > For Christ's Crown and Covenant!
                        > >
                        > > Riley
                        > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                        > > "Susan"
                        > > <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
                        > > > Well, wouldn't that depend on whether or not you
                        > > believe that
                        > > > Presbyterial Church Government is of Divine Right
                        > > or not?
                        > > >
                        > > > Everyone has a confession, whether it's written or
                        > > not. How does
                        > > > anyone go about ascertaining the existence of
                        > > error in
                        > > > another's confession? Who gets to judge and on
                        > > what basis? It's too
                        > > > easy to say "on the basis of the Word of God"
                        > > because the
                        > > > interpretation of that is exactly what's in
                        > > question, is it not?
                        > > >
                        > > > Susan
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                        > > Thomas Roche
                        > > > <tertullianus_2000@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > How do you go about ascertaining the existence
                        > > of
                        > > > > error in the WCF? If someone suggests X point
                        > > therein
                        > > > > is erroneous, who gets to judge, and on what
                        > > basis?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- Susan <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
                        > > > > > Hi again, MwM.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I don't know a soul who believes the WCF is
                        > > equal to
                        > > > > > the Bible! That
                        > > > > > would be bad. I also don't know of any
                        > > Presbyterian
                        > > > > > Churches that use
                        > > > > > the WCF as their "rule of worship." That would
                        > > be
                        > > > > > bad too. No, the WCF
                        > > > > > is not, "inspired and equal to Holy writ." And
                        > > > > > finally, yes the WCF
                        > > > > > could be in error.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Now, all that said, that doesn't mean that we
                        > > > > > believe that the WCF IS
                        > > > > > in error or that it ISN'T a faithful summary
                        > > of what
                        > > > > > the Scriptures
                        > > > > > teach. The Divines believed that the WCF did
                        > > indeed
                        > > > > > correctly
                        > > > > > summarize the main doctrines of Scripture.
                        > > Some of
                        > > > > > us just happen to
                        > > > > > agree with them. Just because we believe it
                        > > agrees
                        > > > > > with Scripture
                        > > > > > doesn't mean we worship the document or put it
                        > > > > > over/above Scripture.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Hope that makes sense.
                        > > > > > Susan
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In
                        > > covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                        > > > > > milkyway_man1961
                        > > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > > > One other thing I had forgotten to ask, do
                        > > those
                        > > > > > here in this group
                        > > > > > > believe the Westminster Confession of faith
                        > > to be
                        > > > > > equal to the Bible
                        > > > > > > or is it just a man ordained document that
                        > > the
                        > > > > > Presbyterian Church
                        > > > > > > uses as it's rule of worship?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > In other words is the WMCOF inspired and
                        > > equal to
                        > > > > > Holy writ? Would
                        > > > > > > like to know how others feel. Can the WMCOF
                        > > be in
                        > > > > > error or is it
                        > > > > > > perfect with out fault?
                        > > > > > > Learning new things every day.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Thanks.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > MwM
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > =====
                        > > > > Dr. Thomas P. Roche
                        > > > > Librarian
                        > > > > The Marvelwood School
                        > > > > 476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001
                        > > > > Kent, CT 06757
                        > > > > tertullianus_2000@y...
                        > > > > (my opinions do not reflect those of my
                        > > employer)
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > __________________________________________________
                        > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,
                        > > live on your
                        > > > desktop!
                        > > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > =====
                        > Dr. Thomas P. Roche
                        > Librarian
                        > The Marvelwood School
                        > 476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001
                        > Kent, CT 06757
                        > tertullianus_2000@y...
                        > (my opinions do not reflect those of my employer)
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your
                        desktop!
                        > http://platinum.yahoo.com
                      • Thomas Britton
                        If you believe that the Holy Ghost was at work at Westminster, or at Dordt like he was in Acts 15, what type of changes would you expect to see in a future
                        Message 11 of 30 , Apr 1, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          If you believe that the Holy Ghost was at work at Westminster, or at
                          Dordt like he was in Acts 15, what type of changes would you expect to
                          see in a future General Council?

                          "Oops, we made a mistake, there are actually 2 persons in the
                          Trinity."? Which would be *different* light. "My son . . . meddle
                          not with them that are given to change: For their calamity shall rise
                          suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?" Prov. 24:21,22. This
                          is the kind of change we saw in the American revision of 1788: "Oops,
                          the Pope isn't the anti-christ, and God DOES want us to tolerate false
                          religions." Another example of church councils erring is the
                          Anti-iconoclastic Councils, "Umm, God says its ok to worship using
                          images."

                          Or wouldn't (or shouldn't) we expect to see increased light, for
                          example comparing the Apostles Creed to the 3 Forms of Unity.
                          "But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more
                          and more unto the perfect day." Proverbs 4:18

                          Determinations of synods and councils decisions, if consonant to the
                          Word of God, are to be received with reverence and submission, not
                          only for their agreement with the Word, but also for the power whereby
                          they are made, as being an ORDINANCE of GOD appointed thereunto in his
                          Word.(cf. Cap.31 sec. 3)

                          Anyone up for a discussion of whether or not Presbyterial Church
                          Government is of Divine Right? Once that issue is settle, alot of
                          these questions become moot. (moot! Moot! MOOT! Gooooooo Team :-)


                          Tom

                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
                          <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
                          > "What is a lawful General Assembly or a lawful General
                          > > Synod?"
                          >
                          > I don't know. I'm not sure.
                          >
                          > Riley
                          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Roche
                          > <tertullianus_2000@y...> wrote:
                          > > What is a lawful General Assembly or a lawful General
                          > > Synod? We have to know these things before we can
                          > > speak not only of existing WCF doctrines/ their
                          > > accuracy, but of any future doctrinal pronouncements
                          > > that might be made by the church?
                          > >
                          > > --- Dan Fraas <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
                          > > > Jesus Christ is the judge and has the right to
                          > > > determine which, if
                          > > > any, parts of the WCF are in error. Until we meet
                          > > > Him face to face
                          > > > we will never know for sure. We must admit it might
                          > > > contain errors
                          > > > since we interpret the Holy Scriptures as mere
                          > > > fallible men. I think
                          > > > this all sister Susan meant. As far as who has the
                          > > > authority to
                          > > > revise or alter a confession of faith, that legal
                          > > > authority would
                          > > > rest with a lawful General Assembly or General
                          > > > Synod. We may have
                          > > > disgreements over what constitutes a lawful General
                          > > > Assembly.
                          > > >
                          > > > For Christ's Crown and Covenant!
                          > > >
                          > > > Riley
                          > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                          > > > "Susan"
                          > > > <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
                          > > > > Well, wouldn't that depend on whether or not you
                          > > > believe that
                          > > > > Presbyterial Church Government is of Divine Right
                          > > > or not?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Everyone has a confession, whether it's written or
                          > > > not. How does
                          > > > > anyone go about ascertaining the existence of
                          > > > error in
                          > > > > another's confession? Who gets to judge and on
                          > > > what basis? It's too
                          > > > > easy to say "on the basis of the Word of God"
                          > > > because the
                          > > > > interpretation of that is exactly what's in
                          > > > question, is it not?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Susan
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                          > > > Thomas Roche
                          > > > > <tertullianus_2000@y...> wrote:
                          > > > > > How do you go about ascertaining the existence
                          > > > of
                          > > > > > error in the WCF? If someone suggests X point
                          > > > therein
                          > > > > > is erroneous, who gets to judge, and on what
                          > > > basis?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- Susan <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > Hi again, MwM.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I don't know a soul who believes the WCF is
                          > > > equal to
                          > > > > > > the Bible! That
                          > > > > > > would be bad. I also don't know of any
                          > > > Presbyterian
                          > > > > > > Churches that use
                          > > > > > > the WCF as their "rule of worship." That would
                          > > > be
                          > > > > > > bad too. No, the WCF
                          > > > > > > is not, "inspired and equal to Holy writ." And
                          > > > > > > finally, yes the WCF
                          > > > > > > could be in error.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Now, all that said, that doesn't mean that we
                          > > > > > > believe that the WCF IS
                          > > > > > > in error or that it ISN'T a faithful summary
                          > > > of what
                          > > > > > > the Scriptures
                          > > > > > > teach. The Divines believed that the WCF did
                          > > > indeed
                          > > > > > > correctly
                          > > > > > > summarize the main doctrines of Scripture.
                          > > > Some of
                          > > > > > > us just happen to
                          > > > > > > agree with them. Just because we believe it
                          > > > agrees
                          > > > > > > with Scripture
                          > > > > > > doesn't mean we worship the document or put it
                          > > > > > > over/above Scripture.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Hope that makes sense.
                          > > > > > > Susan
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- In
                          > > > covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                          > > > > > > milkyway_man1961
                          > > > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > > One other thing I had forgotten to ask, do
                          > > > those
                          > > > > > > here in this group
                          > > > > > > > believe the Westminster Confession of faith
                          > > > to be
                          > > > > > > equal to the Bible
                          > > > > > > > or is it just a man ordained document that
                          > > > the
                          > > > > > > Presbyterian Church
                          > > > > > > > uses as it's rule of worship?
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > In other words is the WMCOF inspired and
                          > > > equal to
                          > > > > > > Holy writ? Would
                          > > > > > > > like to know how others feel. Can the WMCOF
                          > > > be in
                          > > > > > > error or is it
                          > > > > > > > perfect with out fault?
                          > > > > > > > Learning new things every day.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Thanks.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > MwM
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > =====
                          > > > > > Dr. Thomas P. Roche
                          > > > > > Librarian
                          > > > > > The Marvelwood School
                          > > > > > 476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001
                          > > > > > Kent, CT 06757
                          > > > > > tertullianus_2000@y...
                          > > > > > (my opinions do not reflect those of my
                          > > > employer)
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > __________________________________________________
                          > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > > > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,
                          > > > live on your
                          > > > > desktop!
                          > > > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > =====
                          > > Dr. Thomas P. Roche
                          > > Librarian
                          > > The Marvelwood School
                          > > 476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001
                          > > Kent, CT 06757
                          > > tertullianus_2000@y...
                          > > (my opinions do not reflect those of my employer)
                          > >
                          > > __________________________________________________
                          > > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your
                          > desktop!
                          > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
                        • beth ellen nagle
                          Tom, ( or anyone who knows)... Is their a difference between the WCF of 1647 and 1648? Also, I do not find the reference in the WCF of 1647 that states that
                          Message 12 of 30 , Apr 1, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Tom, ( or anyone who knows)...




                            Is their a difference between the WCF of 1647 and 1648?




                            Also, I do not find the reference in the WCF of 1647 that states that
                            the Pope is THE anti-christ. ?




                            Beth Ellen






                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Britton"
                            <bander1643@y...> wrote:


                            > If you believe that the Holy Ghost was at work at Westminster, or at


                            > Dordt like he was in Acts 15, what type of changes would you expect
                            to


                            > see in a future General Council?


                            >


                            > "Oops, we made a mistake, there are actually 2 persons in the


                            > Trinity."? Which would be *different* light. "My son . . . meddle


                            > not with them that are given to change: For their calamity shall
                            rise


                            > suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?" Prov. 24:21,22.
                            This


                            > is the kind of change we saw in the American revision of 1788:
                            "Oops,


                            > the Pope isn't the anti-christ, and God DOES want us to tolerate
                            false


                            > religions." Another example of church councils erring is the


                            > Anti-iconoclastic Councils, "Umm, God says its ok to worship using


                            > images."


                            >


                            > Or wouldn't (or shouldn't) we expect to see increased light, for


                            > example comparing the Apostles Creed to the 3 Forms of Unity.


                            > "But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more


                            > and more unto the perfect day." Proverbs 4:18


                            >


                            > Determinations of synods and councils decisions, if consonant to the


                            > Word of God, are to be received with reverence and submission, not


                            > only for their agreement with the Word, but also for the power
                            whereby


                            > they are made, as being an ORDINANCE of GOD appointed thereunto in
                            his


                            > Word.(cf. Cap.31 sec. 3)


                            >


                            > Anyone up for a discussion of whether or not Presbyterial Church


                            > Government is of Divine Right? Once that issue is settle, alot of


                            > these questions become moot. (moot! Moot! MOOT! Gooooooo Team :-)


                            >


                            >


                            > Tom


                            >


                            > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"


                            > <fraasrd@y...> wrote:


                            > > "What is a lawful General Assembly or a lawful General


                            > > > Synod?"


                            > >


                            > > I don't know. I'm not sure.


                            > >


                            > > Riley


                            > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Roche


                            > > <tertullianus_2000@y...> wrote:


                            > > > What is a lawful General Assembly or a lawful General


                            > > > Synod? We have to know these things before we can


                            > > > speak not only of existing WCF doctrines/ their


                            > > > accuracy, but of any future doctrinal pronouncements


                            > > > that might be made by the church?


                            > > >


                            > > > --- Dan Fraas <fraasrd@y...> wrote:


                            > > > > Jesus Christ is the judge and has the right to


                            > > > > determine which, if


                            > > > > any, parts of the WCF are in error. Until we meet


                            > > > > Him face to face


                            > > > > we will never know for sure. We must admit it might


                            > > > > contain errors


                            > > > > since we interpret the Holy Scriptures as mere


                            > > > > fallible men. I think


                            > > > > this all sister Susan meant. As far as who has the


                            > > > > authority to


                            > > > > revise or alter a confession of faith, that legal


                            > > > > authority would


                            > > > > rest with a lawful General Assembly or General


                            > > > > Synod. We may have


                            > > > > disgreements over what constitutes a lawful General


                            > > > > Assembly.


                            > > > >


                            > > > > For Christ's Crown and Covenant!


                            > > > >


                            > > > > Riley


                            > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,


                            > > > > "Susan"


                            > > > > <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:


                            > > > > > Well, wouldn't that depend on whether or not you


                            > > > > believe that


                            > > > > > Presbyterial Church Government is of Divine Right


                            > > > > or not?


                            > > > > >


                            > > > > > Everyone has a confession, whether it's written or


                            > > > > not. How does


                            > > > > > anyone go about ascertaining the existence of


                            > > > > error in


                            > > > > > another's confession? Who gets to judge and on


                            > > > > what basis? It's too


                            > > > > > easy to say "on the basis of the Word of God"


                            > > > > because the


                            > > > > > interpretation of that is exactly what's in


                            > > > > question, is it not?


                            > > > > >


                            > > > > > Susan


                            > > > > >


                            > > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,


                            > > > > Thomas Roche


                            > > > > > <tertullianus_2000@y...> wrote:


                            > > > > > > How do you go about ascertaining the existence


                            > > > > of


                            > > > > > > error in the WCF? If someone suggests X point


                            > > > > therein


                            > > > > > > is erroneous, who gets to judge, and on what


                            > > > > basis?


                            > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > --- Susan <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:


                            > > > > > > > Hi again, MwM.


                            > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > I don't know a soul who believes the WCF is


                            > > > > equal to


                            > > > > > > > the Bible! That


                            > > > > > > > would be bad. I also don't know of any


                            > > > > Presbyterian


                            > > > > > > > Churches that use


                            > > > > > > > the WCF as their "rule of worship." That would


                            > > > > be


                            > > > > > > > bad too. No, the WCF


                            > > > > > > > is not, "inspired and equal to Holy writ." And


                            > > > > > > > finally, yes the WCF


                            > > > > > > > could be in error.


                            > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > Now, all that said, that doesn't mean that we


                            > > > > > > > believe that the WCF IS


                            > > > > > > > in error or that it ISN'T a faithful summary


                            > > > > of what


                            > > > > > > > the Scriptures


                            > > > > > > > teach. The Divines believed that the WCF did


                            > > > > indeed


                            > > > > > > > correctly


                            > > > > > > > summarize the main doctrines of Scripture.


                            > > > > Some of


                            > > > > > > > us just happen to


                            > > > > > > > agree with them. Just because we believe it


                            > > > > agrees


                            > > > > > > > with Scripture


                            > > > > > > > doesn't mean we worship the document or put it


                            > > > > > > > over/above Scripture.


                            > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > Hope that makes sense.


                            > > > > > > > Susan


                            > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > --- In


                            > > > > covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,


                            > > > > > > > milkyway_man1961


                            > > > > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:


                            > > > > > > > > One other thing I had forgotten to ask, do


                            > > > > those


                            > > > > > > > here in this group


                            > > > > > > > > believe the Westminster Confession of faith


                            > > > > to be


                            > > > > > > > equal to the Bible


                            > > > > > > > > or is it just a man ordained document that


                            > > > > the


                            > > > > > > > Presbyterian Church


                            > > > > > > > > uses as it's rule of worship?


                            > > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > > In other words is the WMCOF inspired and


                            > > > > equal to


                            > > > > > > > Holy writ? Would


                            > > > > > > > > like to know how others feel. Can the WMCOF


                            > > > > be in


                            > > > > > > > error or is it


                            > > > > > > > > perfect with out fault?


                            > > > > > > > > Learning new things every day.


                            > > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > > Thanks.


                            > > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > > > MwM


                            > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > >


                            > > > > > >


                            > > > > > >


                            > > > > > > =====


                            > > > > > > Dr. Thomas P. Roche


                            > > > > > > Librarian


                            > > > > > > The Marvelwood School


                            > > > > > > 476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001


                            > > > > > > Kent, CT 06757


                            > > > > > > tertullianus_2000@y...


                            > > > > > > (my opinions do not reflect those of my


                            > > > > employer)


                            > > > > > >


                            > > > > > >


                            > > > > __________________________________________________


                            > > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?


                            > > > > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,


                            > > > > live on your


                            > > > > > desktop!


                            > > > > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com


                            > > > >


                            > > > >


                            > > >


                            > > >


                            > > > =====


                            > > > Dr. Thomas P. Roche


                            > > > Librarian


                            > > > The Marvelwood School


                            > > > 476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001


                            > > > Kent, CT 06757


                            > > > tertullianus_2000@y...


                            > > > (my opinions do not reflect those of my employer)


                            > > >


                            > > > __________________________________________________


                            > > > Do you Yahoo!?


                            > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your


                            > > desktop!


                            > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
                          • Martin
                            Chapter XXV VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist,
                            Message 13 of 30 , Apr 1, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Chapter XXV

                              VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can
                              the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that
                              man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against
                              Christ, and all that is called God.


                              Martin
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "beth ellen nagle" <bethelmundi@...>
                              To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 11:00 AM
                              Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Hello


                              > Tom, ( or anyone who knows)...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Is their a difference between the WCF of 1647 and 1648?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Also, I do not find the reference in the WCF of 1647 that states that
                              > the Pope is THE anti-christ. ?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Beth Ellen
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Britton"
                              > <bander1643@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > > If you believe that the Holy Ghost was at work at Westminster, or at
                              >
                              >
                              > > Dordt like he was in Acts 15, what type of changes would you expect
                              > to
                              >
                              >
                              > > see in a future General Council?
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > "Oops, we made a mistake, there are actually 2 persons in the
                              >
                              >
                              > > Trinity."? Which would be *different* light. "My son . . . meddle
                              >
                              >
                              > > not with them that are given to change: For their calamity shall
                              > rise
                              >
                              >
                              > > suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?" Prov. 24:21,22.
                              > This
                              >
                              >
                              > > is the kind of change we saw in the American revision of 1788:
                              > "Oops,
                              >
                              >
                              > > the Pope isn't the anti-christ, and God DOES want us to tolerate
                              > false
                              >
                              >
                              > > religions." Another example of church councils erring is the
                              >
                              >
                              > > Anti-iconoclastic Councils, "Umm, God says its ok to worship using
                              >
                              >
                              > > images."
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > Or wouldn't (or shouldn't) we expect to see increased light, for
                              >
                              >
                              > > example comparing the Apostles Creed to the 3 Forms of Unity.
                              >
                              >
                              > > "But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more
                              >
                              >
                              > > and more unto the perfect day." Proverbs 4:18
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > Determinations of synods and councils decisions, if consonant to the
                              >
                              >
                              > > Word of God, are to be received with reverence and submission, not
                              >
                              >
                              > > only for their agreement with the Word, but also for the power
                              > whereby
                              >
                              >
                              > > they are made, as being an ORDINANCE of GOD appointed thereunto in
                              > his
                              >
                              >
                              > > Word.(cf. Cap.31 sec. 3)
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > Anyone up for a discussion of whether or not Presbyterial Church
                              >
                              >
                              > > Government is of Divine Right? Once that issue is settle, alot of
                              >
                              >
                              > > these questions become moot. (moot! Moot! MOOT! Gooooooo Team :-)
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > Tom
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
                              >
                              >
                              > > <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > > > "What is a lawful General Assembly or a lawful General
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > Synod?"
                              >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > I don't know. I'm not sure.
                              >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > Riley
                              >
                              >
                              > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Roche
                              >
                              >
                              > > > <tertullianus_2000@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > What is a lawful General Assembly or a lawful General
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > Synod? We have to know these things before we can
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > speak not only of existing WCF doctrines/ their
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > accuracy, but of any future doctrinal pronouncements
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > that might be made by the church?
                              >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > --- Dan Fraas <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > Jesus Christ is the judge and has the right to
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > determine which, if
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > any, parts of the WCF are in error. Until we meet
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > Him face to face
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > we will never know for sure. We must admit it might
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > contain errors
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > since we interpret the Holy Scriptures as mere
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > fallible men. I think
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > this all sister Susan meant. As far as who has the
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > authority to
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > revise or alter a confession of faith, that legal
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > authority would
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > rest with a lawful General Assembly or General
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > Synod. We may have
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > disgreements over what constitutes a lawful General
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > Assembly.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > For Christ's Crown and Covenant!
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > Riley
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > "Susan"
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > Well, wouldn't that depend on whether or not you
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > believe that
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > Presbyterial Church Government is of Divine Right
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > or not?
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > Everyone has a confession, whether it's written or
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > not. How does
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > anyone go about ascertaining the existence of
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > error in
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > another's confession? Who gets to judge and on
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > what basis? It's too
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > easy to say "on the basis of the Word of God"
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > because the
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > interpretation of that is exactly what's in
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > question, is it not?
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > Susan
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > Thomas Roche
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > <tertullianus_2000@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > How do you go about ascertaining the existence
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > of
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > error in the WCF? If someone suggests X point
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > therein
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > is erroneous, who gets to judge, and on what
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > basis?
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > --- Susan <susan_wilkinson@q...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > Hi again, MwM.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > I don't know a soul who believes the WCF is
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > equal to
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > the Bible! That
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > would be bad. I also don't know of any
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > Presbyterian
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > Churches that use
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > the WCF as their "rule of worship." That would
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > be
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > bad too. No, the WCF
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > is not, "inspired and equal to Holy writ." And
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > finally, yes the WCF
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > could be in error.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > Now, all that said, that doesn't mean that we
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > believe that the WCF IS
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > in error or that it ISN'T a faithful summary
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > of what
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > the Scriptures
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > teach. The Divines believed that the WCF did
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > indeed
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > correctly
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > summarize the main doctrines of Scripture.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > Some of
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > us just happen to
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > agree with them. Just because we believe it
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > agrees
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > with Scripture
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > doesn't mean we worship the document or put it
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > over/above Scripture.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > Hope that makes sense.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > Susan
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > --- In
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > milkyway_man1961
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > > One other thing I had forgotten to ask, do
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > those
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > here in this group
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > > believe the Westminster Confession of faith
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > to be
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > equal to the Bible
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > > or is it just a man ordained document that
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > the
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > Presbyterian Church
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > > uses as it's rule of worship?
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > > In other words is the WMCOF inspired and
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > equal to
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > Holy writ? Would
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > > like to know how others feel. Can the WMCOF
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > be in
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > error or is it
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > > perfect with out fault?
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > > Learning new things every day.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > > Thanks.
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > > > MwM
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > =====
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > Dr. Thomas P. Roche
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > Librarian
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > The Marvelwood School
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > 476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > Kent, CT 06757
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > tertullianus_2000@y...
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > (my opinions do not reflect those of my
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > employer)
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > __________________________________________________
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > live on your
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > desktop!
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > =====
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > Dr. Thomas P. Roche
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > Librarian
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > The Marvelwood School
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > 476 Skiff Mtn. Rd.-- PO Box 3001
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > Kent, CT 06757
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > tertullianus_2000@y...
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > (my opinions do not reflect those of my employer)
                              >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > __________________________________________________
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your
                              >
                              >
                              > > > desktop!
                              >
                              >
                              > > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Deejay
                              Sorry, I ve just come in to correct my error last nite: The only one I have seen and have a copy of tho only dip into it n ... Of course I meant G.I.
                              Message 14 of 30 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                Sorry, I've just come in to correct my error last nite:

                                The only one I have seen and have a copy of tho only dip into it n
                                > ow and then and not read all through, is G.I. Wilkinson's study
                                > version.


                                Of course I meant G.I. Williamson.

                                ~Deejay



                                In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Deejay" <groups@f...>
                                wrote:
                                > The only one I have seen and have a copy of tho only dip into it n
                                > ow and then and not read all through, is G.I. Wilkinson's study
                                > version.
                                >
                                > ~Deejay
                                >
                                > In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, milkyway_man1961
                                > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                > > What is the opinion here of the WMCOF in modern English? I mean
                                > > trying to read the whole Confession in it's original language,
                                > > English 1600's? can be tedious to say the least.
                                > >
                                > > Is there a modern language version of the Confession? I know
                                there
                                > > are plenty of modern versions of the Bible on the market. It
                                would
                                > > make reading/understanding it a lot easier.
                              • Thomas Britton
                                ... If there is, it is not in substance, I m guessing it was the addition of the scripture proofs ... Chapter 25 Section 6, Of the Church: There is no other
                                Message 15 of 30 , Apr 1, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "beth ellen nagle"
                                  <bethelmundi@c...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Is their a difference between the WCF of 1647 and 1648?

                                  If there is, it is not in substance, I'm guessing it was the addition
                                  of the scripture proofs
                                  >
                                  > Also, I do not find the reference in the WCF of 1647 that states that
                                  > the Pope is THE anti-christ. ?

                                  Chapter 25 Section 6, Of the Church: There is no other head of the
                                  Church, but the Lord Jesus Christ [That's right all you non501c3
                                  churches & all other Erastians]; nor can the Pope of Rome, in any
                                  sense, be head thereof; but is that AntiChrist, that man of sin, and
                                  son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church, against Christ
                                  and all that is called God.


                                  Let King Jesus reign, and ALL his enemies be scattered.

                                  Tom
                                • s.padbury@tiscali.co.uk
                                  ... but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that AntiChrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Apr 2, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    >Chapter 25 Section 6, Of the Church: There is no other head of the Church,
                                    but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head
                                    thereof; but is that AntiChrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition,
                                    that exalteth himself in the Church, against Christ and all that is called
                                    God.

                                    So, pah! to the idea that the Westminster Standards allow semi-preterism.

                                    >Let King Jesus reign, and ALL his enemies be scattered.
                                    >
                                    >Tom

                                    Amen. Couldn't have said it better myself!
                                  • Colin
                                    ... I ve addressed this section of the WCF previously. I had said that I, as a orthodox preterist, agree with the statement that the Pope is that antichrist
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Apr 2, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                                      s.padbury@t... wrote:
                                      > >Chapter 25 Section 6, Of the Church: There is no other head
                                      > >of the Church, but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of
                                      > >Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that AntiChrist,
                                      > >that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in
                                      > > the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.
                                      >
                                      > So, pah! to the idea that the Westminster Standards allow
                                      > semi-preterism.

                                      I've addressed this section of the WCF previously. I had said that
                                      I, as a orthodox preterist, agree with the statement that the Pope
                                      is that "antichrist" and that "man of sin". This, I remind you is in a
                                      chapter on ecclesiology and not eschatology. There is nothing
                                      anti-preterist in the eschatological portions of the WCF (XXXII an
                                      XXXIII) and chapter XXV:6 can be interpreted as speaking
                                      *ethically* rather than eschatologically.

                                      Also, the statement about describing the Pope as that Antichrist,
                                      etc. is spoken as a hyperbole and is therefore not an essential to
                                      the topic of section 6, which is about the exclusive headship of
                                      Christ.

                                      BTW the original chapter XXV:6 statement would imply in our day,
                                      that while it specifically rules out the Pope as head of the church,
                                      it does not specifically rule out other attempted usurpers to the
                                      title. So in the context of 17th century Britian and Europe, it was
                                      correct in focusing on the Pope of Rome, but since that time,
                                      other antichrists have arisen throughout the world.

                                      Also, recall the words of John Newton who had said, "I have read
                                      of many wicked popes, but the worst pope I read of is pope self".

                                      > >Let King Jesus reign, and ALL his enemies be scattered.
                                      > >
                                      > >Tom
                                      >
                                      > Amen. Couldn't have said it better myself!

                                      Does that include orthodox preterists as "enemies"?

                                      Colin
                                    • Thomas Britton
                                      ... No, that actually wasn t what I had in mind. HTH, Tom
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                        > Does that include orthodox preterists as "enemies"?
                                        >
                                        > Colin

                                        No, that actually wasn't what I had in mind.


                                        HTH,

                                        Tom
                                      • s.padbury@tiscali.co.uk
                                        Hello Colin, ... the Pope is that antichrist and that man of sin . This, I remind you is in a chapter on ecclesiology and not eschatology. There is nothing
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Apr 3, 2003
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                                          Hello Colin,

                                          >--- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                                          >s.padbury@t... wrote:
                                          >> >Chapter 25 Section 6, Of the Church: There is no other head
                                          >> >of the Church, but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of
                                          >> >Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that ,
                                          >> >that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in
                                          >> > the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.
                                          >>
                                          >> So, pah! to the idea that the Westminster Standards allow
                                          >> semi-preterism.
                                          >

                                          >>I had said that I, as a orthodox preterist, agree with the statement that
                                          the Pope is that "antichrist" and that "man of sin". This, I remind you
                                          is in a chapter on ecclesiology and not eschatology. There is nothing anti-preterist
                                          in the eschatological portions of the WCF (XXXII an XXXIII) and chapter
                                          XXV:6 can be interpreted as speaking *ethically* rather than eschatologically.

                                          "AntiChrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself
                                          in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God." These phrases
                                          are directly lifted out of the Scripture. It is clear that the authors intended
                                          to say exactly what they did say: "AntiChrist, that man of sin, and son
                                          of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church, against Christ and all
                                          that is called God." Deliberately chosen words these. You have no grounds
                                          whatever for saying that these are not intended eschatologically as well
                                          as ethically. There are a definite pointing of the Westminster Assembly's
                                          collective finger at "*that* Antichrist, *that* man of sin." Namely, THAT
                                          very same one as the Scriptires speak of.

                                          > but since that time, other antichrists have arisen throughout the world.

                                          But none so obviously the head of the false church, Babylon the great, "that
                                          exalteth himself in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God."

                                          And God will scatter all his enemies anyhow.

                                          >>>> Amen. Couldn't have said it better myself!
                                          >>Does that include orthodox preterists as "enemies"?

                                          Not necessarily.

                                          And I no not accept that preterism is orthodox.

                                          Simon.
                                        • Colin
                                          ... Yet, the WCF does not cite 1 or 2 John which are the only places where antichrist is actually mentioned in the Bible. Clearly they could not escape the
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Apr 8, 2003
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                                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, s.padbury@t...
                                            wrote:
                                            > Hello Colin,
                                            >
                                            > >--- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                                            > >s.padbury@t... wrote:
                                            > >> >Chapter 25 Section 6, Of the Church: There is no other head
                                            > >> >of the Church, but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of
                                            > >> >Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that ,
                                            > >> >that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself
                                            > >> >in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> So, pah! to the idea that the Westminster Standards allow
                                            > >> semi-preterism.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > [Colin wrote]:
                                            > >>I had said that I, as a orthodox preterist, agree with the
                                            > statement that the Pope is that "antichrist" and that "man of sin".
                                            > This, I remind you is in a chapter on ecclesiology and not
                                            > eschatology. There is nothing anti-preterist in the eschatological
                                            > portions of the WCF (XXXII an XXXIII) and chapter XXV:6 can be
                                            > interpreted as speaking *ethically* rather than eschatologically.
                                            >
                                            > [Simon wrote]:

                                            > "AntiChrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth
                                            > himself in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God."
                                            > These phrases are directly lifted out of the Scripture.

                                            Yet, the WCF does not cite 1 or 2 John which are the only places
                                            where "antichrist" is actually mentioned in the Bible. Clearly they
                                            could not escape the obvious 1st century AD focus of John's Epistles.
                                            Instead, the WCF relies on proof texts such as Rev 13:6 and 2 Thess 2
                                            on the assumption that Paul's "man of sin" was John's "antichrist".
                                            Yet the description of the two do not match. Neither does the
                                            description of John's "Beast" of Revelation match John's description
                                            of "antichrist" even though both are contemporary to John's day.

                                            > It is clear that the authors intended to say exactly what they did
                                            > say: "AntiChrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that
                                            > exalteth himself in the Church, against Christ and all that is
                                            > called God." Deliberately chosen words these. You have no grounds
                                            > whatever for saying that these are not intended eschatologically as
                                            > well as ethically. There are a definite pointing of the Westminster
                                            > Assembly's collective finger at "*that* Antichrist, *that* man of
                                            > sin." Namely, THAT very same one as the Scriptires speak of.

                                            I never said that the framers did not intend to have their
                                            interpretation taken eschatologically. They did believe in the
                                            ongoing eschatological fulfillment of antichrist and Man of sin in
                                            history even up to their own time. But that was a *mistaken* belief
                                            on their part which only reveals their own fallibility. Surely you
                                            believe that the puritans were fallible men and that they sometimes
                                            made mistakes in interpretation? This does not in anyway undermine
                                            the value of the puritans anymore than the recorded mistakes of Moses
                                            or King David undermine their value too.

                                            So while I can agree with the ethical and ecclesiastical
                                            interpretation of the WCF XXV:6 in pointing their finger at Rome, I
                                            am not bound to follow the Framer's mistakes in eschatological
                                            methodology when they were clearly wrong on that. The WCF is not the
                                            inerrant Bible. It is just a book like all other human books and is
                                            subject to editorial revision when and where it is scripturally
                                            required.

                                            What is interesting to me is that it seems that had the original WCF
                                            been explicitly preterist from the beginning, then those who think
                                            that the WCF is without error would vigorously oppose any historicist
                                            interpretation put on it simply because that method dared to disagree
                                            with the WCF and its hypothetical preterism.

                                            Ultimately the issue with orthodox preterism is to be settled on
                                            scriptural grounds and not subordinate confessional grounds.

                                            > > but since that time, other antichrists have arisen throughout the
                                            > > world.
                                            >
                                            > But none so obviously the head of the false church, Babylon the
                                            > great, "that exalteth himself in the Church, against Christ and all
                                            > that is called God."
                                            >

                                            There is no mention of "Babylon the great" in chapter XXV:6 or in the
                                            later eschatological chapters of the WCF. And the assumption
                                            that "Babylon the great" existed in the 17th century or even today is
                                            just a mere assumption, the latter being of paranoid dimensions. The
                                            internal and external evidence points more clearly to the 1st century
                                            AD.

                                            > And I no not accept that preterism is orthodox.
                                            >

                                            The phrase "orthodox" preterism refers to a commitment to creedal
                                            orthodoxy of the early church (Nicene Creed, Athanasian creed, etc).
                                            This is necessary in order to distinguish it from the heretical copy
                                            cat version known as Hyper-Preterism that rejects the early creeds of
                                            the church. Thus, in the correct sense of the word, Orthodox
                                            preterism is indeed very orthodox despite its disagreement with the
                                            fallible puritan method of prophetic interpretation which leads to
                                            endless speculation, date setting and paranoia over the "antichrist"
                                            and the endtimes.

                                            Colin
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