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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony

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  • Gary Gearon
    Hello Brian, The RPNA maintains the following as part of the subordinate standards to the Scriptures. In Christ, Gary Q. 139. What are the sins forbidden in
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 1, 2003
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      Hello Brian,
       
       
      The RPNA maintains the following as part of the subordinate standards to the Scriptures.
       
      In Christ,
       
      Gary
       
       
      Q. 139. What are the sins forbidden in the seventh commandment?
      A. The sins forbidden in the seventh commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required,[792] are, adultery, fornication,[793] rape, incest,[794] sodomy, and all unnatural lusts;[795] all unclean imaginations, thoughts, purposes, and affections;[796] all corrupt or filthy communications, or listening thereunto;[797] wanton looks,[798] impudent or light behaviour, immodest apparel;[799] prohibiting of lawful,[800] and dispensing with unlawful marriages;[801] allowing, tolerating, keeping of stews, and resorting to them;[802] entangling vows of single life,[803] undue delay of marriage,[804] having more wives or husbands than one at the same time;[805] unjust divorce,[806] or desertion;[807] idleness, gluttony, drunkenness,[808] unchaste company;[809] lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays;[810] and all other provocations to, or acts of uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.[811]
       

      [810] Ephesians 5:4. Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. Romans 13:13. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 1 Peter 4:3. For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries. See Ezekiel 23:14-16; Isaiah 3:16; 23:15-17; Mark 6:22.

      ****************************************************************************************************************************************************

      Page 98, 2nd Para., ADT on "Stage-Plays" below:

      Not to insist further in enumerating particulars, the presbytery finally, testily, against church and state, for their negligence to suppress impiety vice, and superstitious observance of holy days, &c. The civil powers herein acting directly contrary to the nature and perverting the very ends of the magistrate’s office, which is to be custos et vindex utriusque tablae; the minister of God, a revenger, to execute wrath on him that doeth evil. Transgressors of the first table of the law may now sin openly with impunity; and, while the religious observation of the sabbath is not regarded, the superstitious observation of holy days, even in Scotland, is so much authorized, that on some of them the most considerable courts of justice are discharged to sit. Stage-plays, masquerades, balls, assemblies, and promiscuous dancings, the very nurseries of impiety and wickedness, are not only tolerated, but even countenanced by law. And as these, with other evils, are permitted by the civil powers; so this church seems to have lost all zeal against sin. No suitable endeavors are used to prevent the growth of atheism, idolatry and superstition: and though prelacy, as well as popery, is growing apace in the lands, and organs publicly used in that superstitious worship; yet no testimony is given against them, but new modes introduced into the worship of God, for carnal ends, as a gradual advance toward that superstition. Yea, so unconcerned about suppressing vice and extravagent vanity, &c., that not only are the forementioned nurseries of sin frequented by ministers’ children, but ministers themselves have countenanced them by their presence, to the great scandal of their office, and manifest encouragement of these seminaries of immorality. And notwithstanding that by the late proclamation the penal laws against vice and profanity seem to be revived (which is in itself so far good), yet this cannot supersede or remove the ground of the presbytery’s testimony against church and state complexly, on the above account, or even against the thing itself, in the manner that it is gone about. For besides that, notwithstanding of all former endeavors of this kind, since the overthrow of our scriptural and covenanted reformation, immorality and wickedness have still increased and overflowed all these banks; partly, because, after all their pretenses, the laws were not vigorously put in execution (and as good, no law nor penalty, as no exception) and partly, because these law-makers, being also themselves the law-breakers, have entrusted the execution to such as are generally ringleaders in a variety of gross immoralities; it is not likely, that ever God will countenance and bless such attempts, whereby (contrary to scripture and all good order) the ecclesiastical power is subjected to the civil and ministers made the bare inspectors of men’s manners, and informers to inferior judges, without having it in the r power to oblige such transgressors (if obstinate) to compear before church judicatories, and conform and submit to the laws of Christ’s house. Nay, so far will God be from approving such Erastian methods of reformation, that he will certainly visit for this, among all other iniquities, and in his own due time make a breach upon us, because we sought him not in the due order. Wherefore, and for all these grounds, the presbytery testify against both church and state, as in their constitutions Erastian and anti-scriptural, including the substitution and acknowledgment of another head and governor over the church than Christ, as may be sufficiently evident; from proofs above adduced. And particular because the British united constitution is such as involves the whole land, and all ranks therein, in the dreadful guilt of idolatry, communicating with idolators, apostasy, perjury, &c.[see HERE] They declare they can have no communion therewith; but that is such an association as that God’s call to his people, concerning it, is, "Come out from among them. Be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you, saith the Lord."

       
       
    • Gary Gearon
      Oh, and btw, so do the Pa. covenanters hold to these as Subordinate to the Scriptures... ... From: Gary Gearon To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 1, 2003
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        Oh, and btw, so do the Pa. covenanters hold to these as Subordinate to the Scriptures...
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 1:02 PM
        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony

        Hello Brian,
         
         
        The RPNA maintains the following as part of the subordinate standards to the Scriptures.
         
        In Christ,
         
        Gary
         
         
        Q. 139. What are the sins forbidden in the seventh commandment?
        A. The sins forbidden in the seventh commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required,[792] are, adultery, fornication,[793] rape, incest,[794] sodomy, and all unnatural lusts;[795] all unclean imaginations, thoughts, purposes, and affections;[796] all corrupt or filthy communications, or listening thereunto;[797] wanton looks,[798] impudent or light behaviour, immodest apparel;[799] prohibiting of lawful,[800] and dispensing with unlawful marriages;[801] allowing, tolerating, keeping of stews, and resorting to them;[802] entangling vows of single life,[803] undue delay of marriage,[804] having more wives or husbands than one at the same time;[805] unjust divorce,[806] or desertion;[807] idleness, gluttony, drunkenness,[808] unchaste company;[809] lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays;[810] and all other provocations to, or acts of uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.[811]
         

        [810] Ephesians 5:4. Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. Romans 13:13. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 1 Peter 4:3. For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries. See Ezekiel 23:14-16; Isaiah 3:16; 23:15-17; Mark 6:22.

        ****************************************************************************************************************************************************

        Page 98, 2nd Para., ADT on "Stage-Plays" below:

        Not to insist further in enumerating particulars, the presbytery finally, testily, against church and state, for their negligence to suppress impiety vice, and superstitious observance of holy days, &c. The civil powers herein acting directly contrary to the nature and perverting the very ends of the magistrate’s office, which is to be custos et vindex utriusque tablae; the minister of God, a revenger, to execute wrath on him that doeth evil. Transgressors of the first table of the law may now sin openly with impunity; and, while the religious observation of the sabbath is not regarded, the superstitious observation of holy days, even in Scotland, is so much authorized, that on some of them the most considerable courts of justice are discharged to sit. Stage-plays, masquerades, balls, assemblies, and promiscuous dancings, the very nurseries of impiety and wickedness, are not only tolerated, but even countenanced by law. And as these, with other evils, are permitted by the civil powers; so this church seems to have lost all zeal against sin. No suitable endeavors are used to prevent the growth of atheism, idolatry and superstition: and though prelacy, as well as popery, is growing apace in the lands, and organs publicly used in that superstitious worship; yet no testimony is given against them, but new modes introduced into the worship of God, for carnal ends, as a gradual advance toward that superstition. Yea, so unconcerned about suppressing vice and extravagent vanity, &c., that not only are the forementioned nurseries of sin frequented by ministers’ children, but ministers themselves have countenanced them by their presence, to the great scandal of their office, and manifest encouragement of these seminaries of immorality. And notwithstanding that by the late proclamation the penal laws against vice and profanity seem to be revived (which is in itself so far good), yet this cannot supersede or remove the ground of the presbytery’s testimony against church and state complexly, on the above account, or even against the thing itself, in the manner that it is gone about. For besides that, notwithstanding of all former endeavors of this kind, since the overthrow of our scriptural and covenanted reformation, immorality and wickedness have still increased and overflowed all these banks; partly, because, after all their pretenses, the laws were not vigorously put in execution (and as good, no law nor penalty, as no exception) and partly, because these law-makers, being also themselves the law-breakers, have entrusted the execution to such as are generally ringleaders in a variety of gross immoralities; it is not likely, that ever God will countenance and bless such attempts, whereby (contrary to scripture and all good order) the ecclesiastical power is subjected to the civil and ministers made the bare inspectors of men’s manners, and informers to inferior judges, without having it in the r power to oblige such transgressors (if obstinate) to compear before church judicatories, and conform and submit to the laws of Christ’s house. Nay, so far will God be from approving such Erastian methods of reformation, that he will certainly visit for this, among all other iniquities, and in his own due time make a breach upon us, because we sought him not in the due order. Wherefore, and for all these grounds, the presbytery testify against both church and state, as in their constitutions Erastian and anti-scriptural, including the substitution and acknowledgment of another head and governor over the church than Christ, as may be sufficiently evident; from proofs above adduced. And particular because the British united constitution is such as involves the whole land, and all ranks therein, in the dreadful guilt of idolatry, communicating with idolators, apostasy, perjury, &c.[see HERE] They declare they can have no communion therewith; but that is such an association as that God’s call to his people, concerning it, is, "Come out from among them. Be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you, saith the Lord."

         
         


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      • Martin
        ;[807] idleness, gluttony, drunkenness,[808] unchaste company;[809] lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays;[810] and all other provocations
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 1, 2003
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          ;[807] idleness, gluttony, drunkenness,[808] unchaste company;[809] lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays;[810] and all other provocations to, or acts of uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.[811]
           
           
          Hmmm, books too eh?  Or perhaps "lascivious" modifies the context of the following items?  Heheh, I can't help but chuckle at the thought of the Westminster divines being unqualifiedly against books.
           
          Martin
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 11:02 AM
          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony

          Hello Brian,
           
           
          The RPNA maintains the following as part of the subordinate standards to the Scriptures.
           
          In Christ,
           
          Gary
           
           
          Q. 139. What are the sins forbidden in the seventh commandment?
          A. The sins forbidden in the seventh commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required,[792] are, adultery, fornication,[793] rape, incest,[794] sodomy, and all unnatural lusts;[795] all unclean imaginations, thoughts, purposes, and affections;[796] all corrupt or filthy communications, or listening thereunto;[797] wanton looks,[798] impudent or light behaviour, immodest apparel;[799] prohibiting of lawful,[800] and dispensing with unlawful marriages;[801] allowing, tolerating, keeping of stews, and resorting to them;[802] entangling vows of single life,[803] undue delay of marriage,[804] having more wives or husbands than one at the same time;[805] unjust divorce,[806] or desertion;[807] idleness, gluttony, drunkenness,[808] unchaste company;[809] lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays;[810] and all other provocations to, or acts of uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.[811]
           

          [810] Ephesians 5:4. Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. Romans 13:13. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 1 Peter 4:3. For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries. See Ezekiel 23:14-16; Isaiah 3:16; 23:15-17; Mark 6:22.

          ****************************************************************************************************************************************************

          Page 98, 2nd Para., ADT on "Stage-Plays" below:

          Not to insist further in enumerating particulars, the presbytery finally, testily, against church and state, for their negligence to suppress impiety vice, and superstitious observance of holy days, &c. The civil powers herein acting directly contrary to the nature and perverting the very ends of the magistrate’s office, which is to be custos et vindex utriusque tablae; the minister of God, a revenger, to execute wrath on him that doeth evil. Transgressors of the first table of the law may now sin openly with impunity; and, while the religious observation of the sabbath is not regarded, the superstitious observation of holy days, even in Scotland, is so much authorized, that on some of them the most considerable courts of justice are discharged to sit. Stage-plays, masquerades, balls, assemblies, and promiscuous dancings, the very nurseries of impiety and wickedness, are not only tolerated, but even countenanced by law. And as these, with other evils, are permitted by the civil powers; so this church seems to have lost all zeal against sin. No suitable endeavors are used to prevent the growth of atheism, idolatry and superstition: and though prelacy, as well as popery, is growing apace in the lands, and organs publicly used in that superstitious worship; yet no testimony is given against them, but new modes introduced into the worship of God, for carnal ends, as a gradual advance toward that superstition. Yea, so unconcerned about suppressing vice and extravagent vanity, &c., that not only are the forementioned nurseries of sin frequented by ministers’ children, but ministers themselves have countenanced them by their presence, to the great scandal of their office, and manifest encouragement of these seminaries of immorality. And notwithstanding that by the late proclamation the penal laws against vice and profanity seem to be revived (which is in itself so far good), yet this cannot supersede or remove the ground of the presbytery’s testimony against church and state complexly, on the above account, or even against the thing itself, in the manner that it is gone about. For besides that, notwithstanding of all former endeavors of this kind, since the overthrow of our scriptural and covenanted reformation, immorality and wickedness have still increased and overflowed all these banks; partly, because, after all their pretenses, the laws were not vigorously put in execution (and as good, no law nor penalty, as no exception) and partly, because these law-makers, being also themselves the law-breakers, have entrusted the execution to such as are generally ringleaders in a variety of gross immoralities; it is not likely, that ever God will countenance and bless such attempts, whereby (contrary to scripture and all good order) the ecclesiastical power is subjected to the civil and ministers made the bare inspectors of men’s manners, and informers to inferior judges, without having it in the r power to oblige such transgressors (if obstinate) to compear before church judicatories, and conform and submit to the laws of Christ’s house. Nay, so far will God be from approving such Erastian methods of reformation, that he will certainly visit for this, among all other iniquities, and in his own due time make a breach upon us, because we sought him not in the due order. Wherefore, and for all these grounds, the presbytery testify against both church and state, as in their constitutions Erastian and anti-scriptural, including the substitution and acknowledgment of another head and governor over the church than Christ, as may be sufficiently evident; from proofs above adduced. And particular because the British united constitution is such as involves the whole land, and all ranks therein, in the dreadful guilt of idolatry, communicating with idolators, apostasy, perjury, &c.[see HERE] They declare they can have no communion therewith; but that is such an association as that God’s call to his people, concerning it, is, "Come out from among them. Be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you, saith the Lord."

           
           


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          covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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        • Ginny Dohms
          Martin, Your observation is right. You can see by placement of the semi-colon that lascivious not only modifies the songs, and books, but includes pictures,
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 1, 2003
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            Martin,
             
            Your observation is right. You can see by placement of the semi-colon that lascivious not only modifies the songs, and books, but includes pictures, dancing and stage plays.  (e.g. Taking pictures of our kids to send to the grandparents is not what is forbidden here.)  It is talking about lascivious pictures, lascivious dancing, and lascivious stage plays.  Thomas Ridgeley supports this observation in his Commentary on the Larger Catechism.
             
            Ginny
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Martin
            Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 11:55 PM
            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony

             
            ;[807] idleness, gluttony, drunkenness,[808] unchaste company;[809] lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays;[810] and all other provocations to, or acts of uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.[811]
             
             
            Hmmm, books too eh?  Or perhaps "lascivious" modifies the context of the following items?  Heheh, I can't help but chuckle at the thought of the Westminster divines being unqualifiedly against books.
             
            Martin
             
          • raging_calvinist <raging.calvinist@veriz
            For arguments regarding theater attendance that go a bit beyond the placement of semi-colons, see: Samuel Miller on Theatre Attendance
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 2, 2003
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              For arguments regarding theater attendance that go a bit beyond the
              placement of semi-colons, see:

              Samuel Miller on Theatre Attendance
              (http://www.covenanter.org/SMiller/millertheatre.htm)

              Increase Mather on Stage-Plays
              (http://www.covenanter.org/IMather/increasemathertestimony.htm#theatre
              )

              Augustin's observations on the Stage (
              http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-01/npnf1-01-11.htm#P440_131676 ,
              starting at #2, and also make sure to look at footnote #1)

              gmw.
            • Martin
              Do you dispute that the term lascivious pertains to the books mentioned in that article of the WCF? Martin ... From: To:
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 2, 2003
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                Do you dispute that the term "lascivious" pertains to the books mentioned in
                that article of the WCF?

                Martin

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <raging.calvinist@...>
                To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 6:16 PM
                Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony


                > For arguments regarding theater attendance that go a bit beyond the
                > placement of semi-colons, see:
                >
                > Samuel Miller on Theatre Attendance
                > (http://www.covenanter.org/SMiller/millertheatre.htm)
                >
                > Increase Mather on Stage-Plays
                > (http://www.covenanter.org/IMather/increasemathertestimony.htm#theatre
                > )
                >
                > Augustin's observations on the Stage (
                > http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-01/npnf1-01-11.htm#P440_131676 ,
                > starting at #2, and also make sure to look at footnote #1)
                >
                > gmw.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
              • Martin
                Er, WLC. :-) ... From: Martin To: Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: Re:
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 2, 2003
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                  Er, WLC. :-)
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Martin" <paleopuritan@...>
                  To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 6:55 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony


                  > Do you dispute that the term "lascivious" pertains to the books mentioned
                  in
                  > that article of the WCF?
                  >
                  > Martin
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: <raging.calvinist@...>
                  > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 6:16 PM
                  > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony
                  >
                  >
                  > > For arguments regarding theater attendance that go a bit beyond the
                  > > placement of semi-colons, see:
                  > >
                  > > Samuel Miller on Theatre Attendance
                  > > (http://www.covenanter.org/SMiller/millertheatre.htm)
                  > >
                  > > Increase Mather on Stage-Plays
                  > > (http://www.covenanter.org/IMather/increasemathertestimony.htm#theatre
                  > > )
                  > >
                  > > Augustin's observations on the Stage (
                  > > http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-01/npnf1-01-11.htm#P440_131676 ,
                  > > starting at #2, and also make sure to look at footnote #1)
                  > >
                  > > gmw.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                • Jerry Waybright
                  No I do not. gmw. ... From: Martin To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 8:55 PM Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re:
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 2, 2003
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                    No I do not.
                     
                    gmw.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Martin
                    Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 8:55 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony

                    Do you dispute that the term "lascivious" pertains to the books mentioned in
                    that article of the WCF?

                    Martin

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <raging.calvinist@...>
                    To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 6:16 PM
                    Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony


                    > For arguments regarding theater attendance that go a bit beyond the
                    > placement of semi-colons, see:
                    >
                    > Samuel Miller on Theatre Attendance
                    > (http://www.covenanter.org/SMiller/millertheatre.htm)
                    >
                    > Increase Mather on Stage-Plays
                    > (http://www.covenanter.org/IMather/increasemathertestimony.htm#theatre
                    > )
                    >
                    > Augustin's observations on the Stage (
                    > http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-01/npnf1-01-11.htm#P440_131676 ,
                    > starting at #2, and also make sure to look at footnote #1)
                    >
                    > gmw.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >


                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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                  • Gary Gearon
                    Me neither friend. ... From: Jerry Waybright To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [Covenanted
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 3, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Me neither friend.
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 9:13 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony

                      No I do not.
                       
                      gmw.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Martin
                      Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 8:55 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony

                      Do you dispute that the term "lascivious" pertains to the books mentioned in
                      that article of the WCF?

                      Martin

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <raging.calvinist@...>
                      To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 6:16 PM
                      Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony


                      > For arguments regarding theater attendance that go a bit beyond the
                      > placement of semi-colons, see:
                      >
                      > Samuel Miller on Theatre Attendance
                      > (http://www.covenanter.org/SMiller/millertheatre.htm)
                      >
                      > Increase Mather on Stage-Plays
                      > (http://www.covenanter.org/IMather/increasemathertestimony.htm#theatre
                      > )
                      >
                      > Augustin's observations on the Stage (
                      > http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-01/npnf1-01-11.htm#P440_131676 ,
                      > starting at #2, and also make sure to look at footnote #1)
                      >
                      > gmw.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >


                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    • Soles
                      Dear Jer, I ve taken the time to read over the three links you gave below....I thought the first by Samuel Miller very balanced and I am going to re-post it at
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 6, 2003
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                        Dear Jer,

                        I've taken the time to read over the three links you gave below....I thought
                        the first by Samuel Miller very balanced and I am going to re-post it at
                        covenanters egroup.

                        The second, I found Mather rather superstitious....example...[that one would
                        be in
                        danger of picking up a devil, while attending].... in his treatment of
                        stageplays, though I liked what Mather had to say further down in the
                        article against *Christ-mass*

                        And Augustin, how interesting that he came to view as he didof plays at the
                        age of 17-18...and his judgement of his emotions about such.

                        Thanks for giving out the links.

                        ~cis~


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <raging.calvinist@...>
                        To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 5:16 PM
                        Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony


                        > For arguments regarding theater attendance that go a bit beyond the
                        > placement of semi-colons, see:
                        >
                        > Samuel Miller on Theatre Attendance
                        > (http://www.covenanter.org/SMiller/millertheatre.htm)
                        >
                        > Increase Mather on Stage-Plays
                        > (http://www.covenanter.org/IMather/increasemathertestimony.htm#theatre
                        > )
                        >
                        > Augustin's observations on the Stage (
                        > http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-01/npnf1-01-11.htm#P440_131676 ,
                        > starting at #2, and also make sure to look at footnote #1)
                        >
                        > gmw.
                      • Gary Gearon
                        Hi Cathie, How is it superstitious to believe that one can be accosted by the forces of evil that the Christian is said to wrestle against, in Scripture? Are
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 6, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Cathie,

                          How is it "superstitious" to believe that one can be accosted by the forces
                          of evil that the Christian is said to wrestle against, in Scripture? Are you
                          sure you want to use this word?


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Soles" <dsranch@...>
                          To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 5:09 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony


                          > Dear Jer,
                          >
                          > I've taken the time to read over the three links you gave below....I
                          thought
                          > the first by Samuel Miller very balanced and I am going to re-post it at
                          > covenanters egroup.
                          >
                          > The second, I found Mather rather superstitious....example...[that one
                          would
                          > be in
                          > danger of picking up a devil, while attending].... in his treatment of
                          > stageplays, though I liked what Mather had to say further down in the
                          > article against *Christ-mass*
                          >
                          > And Augustin, how interesting that he came to view as he didof plays at
                          the
                          > age of 17-18...and his judgement of his emotions about such.
                          >
                          > Thanks for giving out the links.
                          >
                          > ~cis~
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: <raging.calvinist@...>
                          > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 5:16 PM
                          > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony
                          >
                          >
                          > > For arguments regarding theater attendance that go a bit beyond the
                          > > placement of semi-colons, see:
                          > >
                          > > Samuel Miller on Theatre Attendance
                          > > (http://www.covenanter.org/SMiller/millertheatre.htm)
                          > >
                          > > Increase Mather on Stage-Plays
                          > > (http://www.covenanter.org/IMather/increasemathertestimony.htm#theatre
                          > > )
                          > >
                          > > Augustin's observations on the Stage (
                          > > http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-01/npnf1-01-11.htm#P440_131676 ,
                          > > starting at #2, and also make sure to look at footnote #1)
                          > >
                          > > gmw.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------
                          > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Pike Online, Inc.]
                          >
                          >

                          ------------------------------------------------------
                          [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Pike Online, Inc.]
                        • Soles
                          Hello Gary; What word do you think is more correct? No person being indwelt by Christ, can also be indwelt by an evil spirit? though I understand there is a
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 7, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Gary;

                            What word do you think is more correct? No person being indwelt by Christ,
                            can also be indwelt by an evil spirit? though I understand there is a
                            movement among evanglicals that teach otherwise and even have camp
                            ministeries where folks are supposedly promised that many demons will be
                            removed at a price of course.

                            ~cis~
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Gary Gearon" <GGearon@...>
                            To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:30 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony


                            > Hi Cathie,
                            >
                            > How is it "superstitious" to believe that one can be accosted by the
                            forces
                            > of evil that the Christian is said to wrestle against, in Scripture? Are
                            you
                            > sure you want to use this word?
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Soles" <dsranch@...>
                            > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 5:09 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony
                            >
                            >
                            > > Dear Jer,
                            > >
                            > > I've taken the time to read over the three links you gave below....I
                            > thought
                            > > the first by Samuel Miller very balanced and I am going to re-post it at
                            > > covenanters egroup.
                            > >
                            > > The second, I found Mather rather superstitious....example...[that one
                            > would
                            > > be in
                            > > danger of picking up a devil, while attending].... in his treatment of
                            > > stageplays, though I liked what Mather had to say further down in the
                            > > article against *Christ-mass*
                            > >
                            > > And Augustin, how interesting that he came to view as he didof plays at
                            > the
                            > > age of 17-18...and his judgement of his emotions about such.
                            > >
                            > > Thanks for giving out the links.
                            > >
                            > > ~cis~
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: <raging.calvinist@...>
                            > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 5:16 PM
                            > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > For arguments regarding theater attendance that go a bit beyond the
                            > > > placement of semi-colons, see:
                            > > >
                            > > > Samuel Miller on Theatre Attendance
                            > > > (http://www.covenanter.org/SMiller/millertheatre.htm)
                            > > >
                            > > > Increase Mather on Stage-Plays
                            > > > (http://www.covenanter.org/IMather/increasemathertestimony.htm#theatre
                            > > > )
                            > > >
                            > > > Augustin's observations on the Stage (
                            > > > http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-01/npnf1-01-11.htm#P440_131676 ,
                            > > > starting at #2, and also make sure to look at footnote #1)
                            > > >
                            > > > gmw.
                          • Gary Gearon
                            Forgive me, but I may not have communicated my intention, as well as I should have. Do you believe that picking up a devil, as Mather said it, is the same as
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 8, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Forgive me, but I may not have communicated my intention, as well as I
                              should have. Do you believe that "picking up a devil," as Mather said it, is
                              the same as being possessed bodily? I may be mistaken, but I do not believe
                              Mather would think in the terms you described (for a believer) in his phrase
                              "pick up a devil." I do not think that he regarded it the same as being
                              indwelt by a fallen angel, but only tempted and tried by one. I am willing
                              to discuss it with you and your husband, if you like.
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Soles" <dsranch@...>
                              To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 12:22 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony


                              > Hello Gary;
                              >
                              > What word do you think is more correct? No person being indwelt by Christ,
                              > can also be indwelt by an evil spirit? though I understand there is a
                              > movement among evanglicals that teach otherwise and even have camp
                              > ministeries where folks are supposedly promised that many demons will be
                              > removed at a price of course.
                              >
                              > ~cis~
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Gary Gearon" <GGearon@...>
                              > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:30 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony
                              >
                              >
                              > > Hi Cathie,
                              > >
                              > > How is it "superstitious" to believe that one can be accosted by the
                              > forces
                              > > of evil that the Christian is said to wrestle against, in Scripture? Are
                              > you
                              > > sure you want to use this word?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: "Soles" <dsranch@...>
                              > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 5:09 PM
                              > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > Dear Jer,
                              > > >
                              > > > I've taken the time to read over the three links you gave below....I
                              > > thought
                              > > > the first by Samuel Miller very balanced and I am going to re-post it
                              at
                              > > > covenanters egroup.
                              > > >
                              > > > The second, I found Mather rather superstitious....example...[that one
                              > > would
                              > > > be in
                              > > > danger of picking up a devil, while attending].... in his treatment of
                              > > > stageplays, though I liked what Mather had to say further down in the
                              > > > article against *Christ-mass*
                              > > >
                              > > > And Augustin, how interesting that he came to view as he didof plays
                              at
                              > > the
                              > > > age of 17-18...and his judgement of his emotions about such.
                              > > >
                              > > > Thanks for giving out the links.
                              > > >
                              > > > ~cis~
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: <raging.calvinist@...>
                              > > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 5:16 PM
                              > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > > For arguments regarding theater attendance that go a bit beyond the
                              > > > > placement of semi-colons, see:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Samuel Miller on Theatre Attendance
                              > > > > (http://www.covenanter.org/SMiller/millertheatre.htm)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Increase Mather on Stage-Plays
                              > > > >
                              (http://www.covenanter.org/IMather/increasemathertestimony.htm#theatre
                              > > > > )
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Augustin's observations on the Stage (
                              > > > > http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-01/npnf1-01-11.htm#P440_131676 ,
                              > > > > starting at #2, and also make sure to look at footnote #1)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > gmw.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------------------------
                              > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Pike Online, Inc.]
                              >
                              >

                              ------------------------------------------------------
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                            • Gary Gearon
                              Here is a quote from Mather: Tertullian in his Book de Spectaculis, Cap. 26. speaks of a Woman, that upon her going to see a Stage Play was immediately
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 8, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Here is a quote from Mather:
                                 
                                Tertullian in his Book de Spectaculis,
                                          Cap. 26. speaks of a Woman, that upon her going to see a Stage Play was
                                          immediately possessed with the Devil, and the Evil Spirit being in a way of
                                          Exorcism Expostulated with, for Entering into one that professed Christianity, he
                                          answered that he had just cause to do it, for said he, In meo Inveni, I found her in
                                          my own Ground, where I have Dominion.
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Soles" <dsranch@...>
                                Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 12:22 AM
                                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony

                                > Hello Gary;
                                >
                                > What word do you think is more correct?
                                No person being indwelt by Christ,
                                > can also be indwelt by an evil
                                spirit? though I understand there is a
                                > movement among evanglicals that
                                teach otherwise and even have camp
                                > ministeries where folks are
                                supposedly promised that many demons will be
                                > removed at a price of
                                course.
                                >
                                > ~cis~
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                >
                                From: "Gary Gearon" <
                                GGearon@...>
                                > To: <
                                href="mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com">covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:30 PM
                                > Subject: Re:
                                [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony
                                >
                                >
                                > > Hi Cathie,
                                > >
                                > > How is it "superstitious" to
                                believe that one can be accosted by the
                                > forces
                                > > of evil that
                                the Christian is said to wrestle against, in Scripture? Are
                                > you
                                > > sure you want to use this word?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: "Soles" <
                                dsranch@...>
                                > > To: <
                                covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 5:09 PM
                                > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > Dear Jer,
                                > > >
                                > > > I've taken the time to read over the three links you gave below....I
                                > > thought
                                > > > the first by Samuel Miller very balanced and I am going to re-post it at
                                > > > covenanters egroup.
                                > > >
                                > > > The second, I found Mather rather superstitious....example...[that one
                                > > would
                                > > > be in
                                > > > danger of picking up a devil, while attending].... in his treatment of
                                > > > stageplays, though I liked what Mather had to say further down in the
                                > > > article against *Christ-mass*
                                > > >
                                > > > And Augustin, how interesting that he came to view as he didof plays at
                                > > the
                                > > > age of 17-18...and his judgement of his emotions about such.
                                > > >
                                > > > Thanks for giving out the links.
                                > > >
                                > > > ~cis~
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > From: <
                                raging.calvinist@...>
                                > > > To: <
                                covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 5:16 PM
                                > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Act Declaration and Testimony
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > > For arguments regarding theater attendance that go a bit beyond the
                                > > > > placement of semi-colons, see:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Samuel Miller on Theatre Attendance
                                > > > > (
                                http://www.covenanter.org/SMiller/millertheatre.htm)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Increase Mather on Stage-Plays
                                > > > > (
                                http://www.covenanter.org/IMather/increasemathertestimony.htm#theatre
                                > > > > )
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Augustin's observations on the Stage (
                                > > > >
                                http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-01/npnf1-01-11.htm#P440_131676 ,
                                > > > > starting at #2, and also make sure to look at footnote #1)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > gmw.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                >
                                covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                >  
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
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