Martin Lloyd Jones believed that the Old Man is dead to the believer. He
equated the "Body of Sin," with the "Old Nature." He did not hold that the
the "Old Man" and "Old Nature" are the same/synonomous. He disagreed with
Kuyper's assertion, that the believer is the Old Man's gravedigger, daily.
The Old Man is gone and crucified with Christ. Many "orthodox" Presby's hold
him in very high esteem today.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Waybright" <raging.calvinist@...>
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Prone to hate
> "there is no question that the believer still struggles with remaining
> corruption every day"
> Of what "nature" is that corruption? Is the corruption from your new
> regenerated nature?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <yakob@...>
> To: <email@example.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 6:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Prone to hate
> > Hello Jerry;
> > On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:52:57 -0500 "Jerry Waybright"
> > <raging.calvinist@...> writes:
> > > Hi Jim,
> > >
> > > While this condition is hopeless for the unconverted, yet a remnant
> > > of this sinful nature remains in the believer.
> > I guess I have heard countless folk make this claim over and over but I
> > just can't seem to find anywhere in the Bible where it is taught that a
> > true Christian has a 'sinful nature'... whatever that is. In fact I
> > find the opposite stated in many places; one of which is 2Cor 5:17 where
> > it is stated that anyone who is in Christ is a new creature, or
> > literally, a new creation. Without going into too much detail on this
> > verse here it is safe to say that this is speaking of the fact that a
> > Christian is one who is in possession of a new nature. I suspect if we
> > continue in this discussion I will be inclined to produce other passages
> > that support this idea; of which there are many.
> > This being so, we now need to be careful not to fall into the error of
> > saying that a believer actually has two natures, one sinful and one
> > righteous. Believe it or not there are folks who claim this. This view
> > leads to more complicated problems not the least of which is a false
> > dichotomy concerning the constitutional make up of a believer whom God
> > has regenerated.
> > >Remember, the
> > > question being answered in the catechism is "Canst thou keep all
> > > these things perfectly?" The answer, EVEN FOR THE CHRISTIAN, is an
> > > emphatic NO.
> > Yet the Scriptures give us an emphatic YES answer Jerry. Here it is;
> > 1Jn 3: 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath
> > not seen him, neither known him.
> > and,,,
> > 1Jn 3: 9* Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed
> > remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
> > Very strong language wouldn't you say, which is quite in opposition to
> > the catachism.
> > > And why so? Because there remains in us that sin
> > > nature which makes us prone to hate God and our neighbor.
> > I agree with Paul's assessment of the believer's struggle withy
> > corruption in Rom 7 and do not advocate sinless perfection but I just do
> > not see anywhere in Scripture where we are taught that believers still
> > have what you refer to as the 'sin nature' and that they hate God!
> > Recall how Paul in Eph 2 says that unbelievers are the children of wrath
> > *by nature*. That is because, I believe, all unsaved people do indeed
> > have sinful natures that are enmity against God and are not subject to
> > the law of God nor can they be and they are naturally God-haters, by
> > nature. But if we say that the believer still has the 'sinful nature'
> > then we will have to say that he is still like the unsaved, a child of
> > wrath by nature.
> > The idea that a believer has two natures one of which is sinful is
> > frought with problems and dilemmas Jerry. Example; when the believer
> > 'sins' which nature sinned? The sinful one, right? well... which
> > 'repents' ? Not the sinful one for it hates God and cannot repent. And
> > not the renewed nature for as John says in 1John 3 that nature cannot
> > so it needs no repentance.
> > Remember,
> > > if the law requires that we love God and our neighbor, then NOT
> > > keeping the law (be the sin ever so "slight") is an example of
> > > failing to love God and our neighbor.
> > That certainly is true yet the NT teaches that the believer not only
> > but does keep the law. I already quoted you one verse to that effect.
> > 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God,
> > and
> > keep his commandments.
> > If the believer cannot keep the law then this vs makes no sense; neither
> > the third chapter of 1 John. In fact the whold book of 1John teaches
> > that a believer is one who keeps God's law. True John also teaches that
> > a believer still sins and this is the tension that we need to come to
> > grips with and attempt to arrive at a Biblical explanation as to how a
> > believer can not sin, according to 1John 3... while at the same time he
> > must struggle with remaining corruption. The 'two natures' idea is not
> > the answer.
> > >
> > > Consider also,
> > >
> > > Westminster Larger Catechism:
> > >
> > > Q149: Is any man able perfectly to keep the commandments of God?
> > > A149: No man is able, either of himself, or by any grace
> > > received in this life, perfectly to keep the commandments of God;
> > > but doth daily break them in thought, word, and deed.
> > >
> > > 1. James 3:2; John 15:5; Rom. 8:3
> > > 2. Eccl. 7:20; I John 1:8, 10; Gal. 5:17; Rom. 7:18-19
> > > 3. Gen. 6:5, 8:21
> > > 4. Rom. 3:9-19; James 3:2-13
> > >
> > > We daily break the commandments in though, word, and deed, even as
> > > Christians.
> > >
> > > gmw.
> > As I say, there is no question that the believer still struggles with
> > remaining corruption every day. But that does not mean that he is still
> > in possession of a 'sinful nature' which inclines him to "hate God and
> > his neighbor". I cannot find anywhere in Scripture where it is ever
> > of any true child of God that he 'hates God' or his neighbor. Again I
> > find the opposite being taught un the NT... that all true believers
> > love God, and keep His commandments. If any man does not love God and
> > keep the commandments, he is no Christian.
> > Jn 21: 15 ¶ So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon,
> > [son] of
> > Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord;
> > knowest that I *love* thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
> > In truth;
> > Jim Kirby
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