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Re: Calvin on Ephesians 4:11

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  • thedatarat
    - Calvin thought it was the ministers that were given and set up by God, and speaks of rebellion against them in the same light as
    Message 1 of 734 , Sep 17, 2001
      -<br><br><br>"Calvin thought it was the ministers
      that<br>were given and set up by God, and speaks<br>of
      rebellion against them in the same light<br>as rebellion
      against the Magistrate"<br><br><br>Let's consider the
      second point first:<br><br>Once an Elder or Deacon takes
      office,<br>rebellion against him ~is~ rebellion<br>against God who
      established those<br>church offices.<br><br>You DON'T need to
      believe the Lord<br>appointed particular Elders and
      Deacons<br>to believe ~this~ !<br><br>As for the Most High
      appointing church<br>officers:<br><br>The Great Reformer
      states "church<br>government" is "no human
      contrivance"<br>but -instead- an "ordinance of Christ".<br><br>THIS
      refers to the office, and church<br>polity as a whole
      ...~not~ to selection<br>of specific individuals to hold
      church<br>office.<br><br>Next, Calvin states:<br><br>"The apostles did<br>not
      appoint themselves,<br>but were chosen by<br>Christ; and,
      at the<br>present day, true<br>pastors do not
      rashly<br>thrust themselves<br>forward by their
      own<br>judgment"<br><br>The Tulip Rodent thinks Calvin was making<br>a
      ~general~ analogy here. Doubt he meant<br>that pastors must
      be struck blind on a<br>highway and hear an audible
      voice from<br>God.<br><br>Rather: The PRINCIPLE that
      pastors don't<br>choose themselves for their own
      purposes.<br>Hence, "the ministry of the word, is not<br>a
      contrivance of men".<br><br>"Appointment" may be an
      unfortunate<br>translation here. Calvin plainly is<br>referring to calling
      (ergo: "if he<br>does not raise them up, there
      will<br>be none").<br><br>Your favorite rodent would
      argue<br>Calvin in this quote references the<br>issue of calling
      rather than selection.<br><br>In a far more detailed
      treatment of<br>the subject (Institutes, Bk. 4, Ch.
      3),<br>Dr. Calvin distinguishes between an<br>"external
      calling" and an internal,<br>"secret call" of pastors
      (Sec. 11).<br><br>The latter being "the good
      testimony<br>of our heart" seeking pastorship out<br>of desire
      for service rather than<br>"ambition" or "avarice"
      (Supra).<br><br>The Calvinist Rodent believes exactly<br>THIS is what
      your Ephesians commentary<br>quote
      references.<br><br>As to the former, ~that's~ the
      actual<br>appointment, and is made by men using<br>Scriptural criteria
      (Sec. 12).<br><br>It's NOT Jesus personally and
      directly<br>appointing pastors as He did
      with<br>Apostles.<br><br>Indeed, when Calvin addresses "by<br>whom ministers are
      to be chosen",<br>the Great Reformer states we
      can<br>NOT use the Apostles as an example<br>...that pastors
      are chosen by a<br>"somewhat different" method
      than<br>were the Apostles ! (Sec. 13)<br><br>Calvin writes
      that Apostles ~weren't~<br>chosen by "any human
      election" (Supra),<br>but that ministers "should
      be<br>designated by men" (Sec. 14).<br><br>The DataRat rests his
      case.<br><br><br><br>DR<br><br><br><br>-
    • almo_no1
      prayers are easy gmw, you ve got em.
      Message 734 of 734 , Sep 18, 2001
        prayers are easy gmw, you've got 'em.
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