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RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Questions for Bill

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  • Bill Ross
    ... ... Torah is the Hebrew. When Paul refers to it in Greek he uses the word nomia which is translated law but it really doesn t capture
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 2, 2002
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      > Isn't this precisely the language of scripture?

      <Jason>
      >>NO. Where do you find the Word torah used the way you do in Scripture?

      <Bill>
      Torah is the Hebrew. When Paul refers to it in Greek he uses the word
      "nomia" which is translated "law" but it really doesn't capture the
      flavor of the Hebrew so I prefer to just transliterate. The torah is not
      just a body of legal text.

      <Jason>
      >>Question 1.(Since you won't answer what church you attend) what is
      the name that the local congregation of believers that you assemble
      with goes by, and where is it located?

      <Bill>
      I told you that on biblical principle the practice of giving names to
      assemblies is unacceptable. What name do you gather under?

      Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name,
      there am I in the midst of them.

      <Jason>
      >>Do you know of Evan Wilson?

      <Bill>
      Sorry, I don't. (I take it he is considered a "heretic?!")

      <Jason>
      >>Do you Believe in the Trinity (with no qualifying
      statements)?

      <Bill>
      Ah! The acid test of genuine religion!

      I am all for it if it is in the scriptures. But rather than couch this
      acid test in jargon, can you please point me to the verse that I must
      concur with? What verse of scripture must I confess to rightly be an
      orthodox believer? If there is one, I can assure you that I concur.

      <Jason>
      >>Can you give firm assent to these four documents?

      <Bill>
      Not without some explanation. I have a couple of questions. Where are
      these asserted in scripture?:

      4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried; He
      descended into hell.
      9. I believe in the holy catholic church, the communion of saints,

      These?

      We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally
      begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God
      from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father.
      We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who
      proceeds from the Father and the Son.
      With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
      We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

      And most especially - since this purports the to be the true faith that
      one must believe in order to be saved, where are *any* of these
      assertions made in scripture?:

      III. The Athanasian Creed
      1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that
      he hold the catholic faith;
      2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without
      doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
      3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in
      Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
      4. Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.
      5. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and
      another of the Holy Spirit.
      6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
      is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
      7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy
      Spirit.
      8. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit
      uncreate.
      9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the
      Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
      10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit
      eternal.
      11. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
      12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three
      incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
      13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the
      Holy Spirit almighty;
      14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
      15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is
      God;
      16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
      17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy
      Spirit Lord;
      18. And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
      19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to
      acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord;
      20. so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are
      three Gods or three Lords.
      21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
      22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but
      begotten.
      23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made,
      nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
      24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three
      Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
      25. And in this Trinity none is afore, nor after another; none is
      greater, or less than another.
      26. But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal.
      27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and
      the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
      28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
      29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he
      also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
      30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord
      Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
      31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds;
      and made of the substance of His mother, born in the world.
      32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human
      flesh subsisting.
      33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the
      Father as touching His manhood.
      34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one
      Christ.
      35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking
      of the manhood into God.
      36. One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by unity
      of person.
      37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man
      is one Christ;
      38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again
      the third day from the dead;
      39. He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the
      Father, God Almighty;
      40. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
      41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
      42. And shall give account of their own works.
      43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and
      they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
      44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe
      faithfully, he cannot be saved.

      And these? Where are they asserted in scripture?

      Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach
      men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at
      once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and
      truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one
      substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same
      time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all
      respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the
      Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for
      us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer;
      one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two
      natures, without confusion, without change, without division,
      without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way
      annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature
      being preserved and coming together to form one person and
      subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one
      and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ;
      even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord
      Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has
      handed down to us.

      <Jason>
      >>Question 5. Why are you in this club (honestly)?

      <Bill>
      I would like to think that I have stimulated some people to consider the
      scriptures in ways they might not have been exposed. Honestly.

      <Jason>
      >>May God either free them from their tyrant or turn his heart

      <Bill>
      What, pray tell, is that supposed to mean? I am not a tyrant but am the
      rightful father of my children.

      Was that a personal insult? If so, seek forgiveness or God will with
      absolute certainty smite you, you whitewashed wall. If that was not just
      a reproach, please explain.

      Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written,
      The reproaches of them [Jason] that reproached thee [Bill] fell on me
      [Christ].

      Thanks,

      Bill Ross
      No Risk Software Inc
    • Susan
      (Okay, this is my third attempt to post this. First time I accidently used Tom s ID...didn t see him logged in. Second time it didn t show up. If it shows I ll
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 2, 2002
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        (Okay, this is my third attempt to post this. First time I accidently
        used Tom's ID...didn't see him logged in. Second time it didn't show
        up. If it shows I'll delete one of them.)

        <Bill>
        "I would like to think that I have
        stimulated some people to consider
        the scriptures in ways they might not
        have been exposed. Honestly."


        I'm afraid your interpretation of
        Scripture, your attitude toward
        those trying to correct you, and your
        evasion of legitimate questions
        has made your goal impossible, at
        least with me. I too hate
        denominationalism, but there is a time
        for explaining a litle more
        than, "I believe whatever Scripture
        says." After all, Mormons, JW's,
        every denomination under the sun, and
        even many in Hollywood will tell
        you that! Sadly, the Word has been so twisted that
        these days saying,
        "I believe whatever Scripture says" tells me nothing
        about what you
        actually believe. At this point, I'm not sure if you
        are a misguided,
        mistaught, misunderstanding ~believer~ as I was (and
        STILL am on many
        things), or if you are a heretic here for reasons I'm
        sure I cannot
        begin to understand.

        If the former, I hope you will change your stance, at
        least in this
        group, from one of teaching to one of learning. If you
        are the latter,
        a different course is inevitable.

        Susan
      • Jason Robert Schuiling
        ... This seems to be your approach on everything ... to ... So, let me get this straight, you can believe whatever seems fitting to you so long as you don t
        Message 3 of 3 , Dec 2, 2002
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          >....so I prefer...

          This seems to be your approach on everything


          > <Bill>
          > I told you that on biblical principle the practice of giving names
          to
          > assemblies is unacceptable.


          So, let me get this straight, you can believe whatever seems
          fitting to you so long as you don't give it a name?


          >What name do you gather under?

          Under the Name of the Triune God, Father Son and Holy
          Ghost. Though I imagine this is more what you mean--Presently I am
          attending the church that is the parent of the college I am going
          to, which goes by the name Christ Church and is a member the
          Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals, at home I am a member of the
          First Christian Reformed Church of Ripon, CA. I have formally
          professed adherence to the Three Forms of Unity-
          http://www.prca.org/literature.html and I am also in agreement with
          the Westminster standards.


          > Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my
          name,
          > there am I in the midst of them.


          OK, I will try this one more time, perhaps if I rephrase the
          question. Bill, do you only worship with you family and consider
          that your local church, or is there a larger local body of believers
          that you assemble with? Do you have any standards or statement of
          faith? Any terms of communion? Approximately how many members?


          > <Jason>
          > >>Do you Believe in the Trinity (with no qualifying
          > statements)?

          > <Jason>
          > >>Can you give firm assent to these four documents?


          These were yes or no questions. So I take it No and No ?



          > >>Question 5. Why are you in this club (honestly)?
          >
          > <Bill>
          > I would like to think that I have stimulated some people to
          consider the
          > scriptures in ways they might not have been exposed. Honestly.


          Well, stop, you haven't



          > <Jason>
          > >>May God either free them from their tyrant or turn his heart
          >
          > <Bill>
          > What, pray tell, is that supposed to mean? I am not a tyrant but
          am the
          > rightful father of my children.

          This is my sincere prayer, for I am saddened to see so many under
          such a violent head. I do not doubt that you are the rightful
          father, but rightful fathers are often tortuous tyrants such
          yourself, who tear down their own homes with pernicious,
          destructive, and false doctrine. I pray firstly that God would open
          your eyes to your most dangerous error and turn you, if he would not
          grant that I ask that the tortured subjects might be freed by your
          destruction.

          Ps 18:26-27
          With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure;
          And with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
          For thou wilt save the afflicted people;
          But wilt bring down high looks.
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