RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Questions for Bill
> Isn't this precisely the language of scripture?<Jason>
>>NO. Where do you find the Word torah used the way you do in Scripture?<Bill>
Torah is the Hebrew. When Paul refers to it in Greek he uses the word
"nomia" which is translated "law" but it really doesn't capture the
flavor of the Hebrew so I prefer to just transliterate. The torah is not
just a body of legal text.
>>Question 1.(Since you won't answer what church you attend) what isthe name that the local congregation of believers that you assemble
with goes by, and where is it located?
I told you that on biblical principle the practice of giving names to
assemblies is unacceptable. What name do you gather under?
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name,
there am I in the midst of them.
>>Do you know of Evan Wilson?<Bill>
Sorry, I don't. (I take it he is considered a "heretic?!")
>>Do you Believe in the Trinity (with no qualifyingstatements)?
Ah! The acid test of genuine religion!
I am all for it if it is in the scriptures. But rather than couch this
acid test in jargon, can you please point me to the verse that I must
concur with? What verse of scripture must I confess to rightly be an
orthodox believer? If there is one, I can assure you that I concur.
>>Can you give firm assent to these four documents?<Bill>
Not without some explanation. I have a couple of questions. Where are
these asserted in scripture?:
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried; He
descended into hell.
9. I believe in the holy catholic church, the communion of saints,
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally
begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God
from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who
proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
And most especially - since this purports the to be the true faith that
one must believe in order to be saved, where are *any* of these
assertions made in scripture?:
III. The Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that
he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without
doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in
Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and
another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy
8. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the
Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit
11. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three
incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the
Holy Spirit almighty;
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy
18. And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to
acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are
three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made,
nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three
Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore, nor after another; none is
greater, or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and
the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he
also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds;
and made of the substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the
Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking
of the manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by unity
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man
is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again
the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the
Father, God Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. And shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and
they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe
faithfully, he cannot be saved.
And these? Where are they asserted in scripture?
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach
men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at
once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and
truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one
substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same
time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all
respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the
Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for
us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer;
one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two
natures, without confusion, without change, without division,
without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way
annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature
being preserved and coming together to form one person and
subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one
and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ;
even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord
Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has
handed down to us.
>>Question 5. Why are you in this club (honestly)?<Bill>
I would like to think that I have stimulated some people to consider the
scriptures in ways they might not have been exposed. Honestly.
>>May God either free them from their tyrant or turn his heart<Bill>
What, pray tell, is that supposed to mean? I am not a tyrant but am the
rightful father of my children.
Was that a personal insult? If so, seek forgiveness or God will with
absolute certainty smite you, you whitewashed wall. If that was not just
a reproach, please explain.
Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written,
The reproaches of them [Jason] that reproached thee [Bill] fell on me
No Risk Software Inc
- (Okay, this is my third attempt to post this. First time I accidently
used Tom's ID...didn't see him logged in. Second time it didn't show
up. If it shows I'll delete one of them.)
"I would like to think that I have
stimulated some people to consider
the scriptures in ways they might not
have been exposed. Honestly."
I'm afraid your interpretation of
Scripture, your attitude toward
those trying to correct you, and your
evasion of legitimate questions
has made your goal impossible, at
least with me. I too hate
denominationalism, but there is a time
for explaining a litle more
than, "I believe whatever Scripture
says." After all, Mormons, JW's,
every denomination under the sun, and
even many in Hollywood will tell
you that! Sadly, the Word has been so twisted that
these days saying,
"I believe whatever Scripture says" tells me nothing
about what you
actually believe. At this point, I'm not sure if you
are a misguided,
mistaught, misunderstanding ~believer~ as I was (and
STILL am on many
things), or if you are a heretic here for reasons I'm
sure I cannot
begin to understand.
If the former, I hope you will change your stance, at
least in this
group, from one of teaching to one of learning. If you
are the latter,
a different course is inevitable.
>....so I prefer...This seems to be your approach on everything
> I told you that on biblical principle the practice of giving names
> assemblies is unacceptable.So, let me get this straight, you can believe whatever seems
fitting to you so long as you don't give it a name?
>What name do you gather under?Under the Name of the Triune God, Father Son and Holy
Ghost. Though I imagine this is more what you mean--Presently I am
attending the church that is the parent of the college I am going
to, which goes by the name Christ Church and is a member the
Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals, at home I am a member of the
First Christian Reformed Church of Ripon, CA. I have formally
professed adherence to the Three Forms of Unity-
http://www.prca.org/literature.html and I am also in agreement with
the Westminster standards.
> Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in myname,
> there am I in the midst of them.OK, I will try this one more time, perhaps if I rephrase the
question. Bill, do you only worship with you family and consider
that your local church, or is there a larger local body of believers
that you assemble with? Do you have any standards or statement of
faith? Any terms of communion? Approximately how many members?
> <Jason>These were yes or no questions. So I take it No and No ?
> >>Do you Believe in the Trinity (with no qualifying
> >>Can you give firm assent to these four documents?
> >>Question 5. Why are you in this club (honestly)?consider the
> I would like to think that I have stimulated some people to
> scriptures in ways they might not have been exposed. Honestly.Well, stop, you haven't
> <Jason>am the
> >>May God either free them from their tyrant or turn his heart
> What, pray tell, is that supposed to mean? I am not a tyrant but
> rightful father of my children.This is my sincere prayer, for I am saddened to see so many under
such a violent head. I do not doubt that you are the rightful
father, but rightful fathers are often tortuous tyrants such
yourself, who tear down their own homes with pernicious,
destructive, and false doctrine. I pray firstly that God would open
your eyes to your most dangerous error and turn you, if he would not
grant that I ask that the tortured subjects might be freed by your
With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure;
And with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
For thou wilt save the afflicted people;
But wilt bring down high looks.