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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Psalm singing

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  • Jerry
    Here s a link that should get you there: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/links/Psalm_Si nging_001036164282/ If that doesn t work, try:
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 2, 2002
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      Here's a link that should get you there:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/links/Psalm_Si
      nging_001036164282/

      If that doesn't work, try:

      http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1B025252

      gmw.
    • Gary Gearon
      How bout Jam Master Jer, Jr. G and E ... From: Jerry To: Sent: Saturday,
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 2, 2002
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        How bout'

        "Jam Master Jer, Jr."

        G and E
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@...>
        To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 9:58 AM
        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Psalm singing


        >
        > Here's a link that should get you there:
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/links/Psalm_Si
        > nging_001036164282/
        >
        > If that doesn't work, try:
        >
        > http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1B025252
        >
        > gmw.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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      • solemnleague@aol.com
        Martin, I cant remember. I know I was told the place a few years ago that the Synod allowed it. I will look to find where. Paul Moore
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 3, 2002
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          Martin,
               I cant remember. I know I was told the place a few years ago that the Synod allowed it. I will look to find where.
          Paul Moore
        • Martin
          Hi Paul, Which article authorizes the use of an organ? Thanks, Martin ... From: solemnleague@aol.com To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com Sent:
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 3, 2002
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            Hi Paul,
             
            Which article authorizes the use of an organ?
             
            Thanks,
             
            Martin
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 5:07 PM
            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Psalm singing

            In a message dated 10/31/02 2:58:19 PM Central Standard Time, followerofhim2001@... writes:

            What gets me is that the reform church in this
            country, were all Psalm singing until about 1930.


            The Synod of Dort(1618-1619) had NT and Epistle hymns(both inspired) and it allowd for use of an organ.
            Paul


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          • solemnleague@aol.com
            Martin(list), I must confess that I have been looking in my faves files under Reformed stuff and I can not find this. I must offer and apology for posting
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 3, 2002
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              Martin(list),
                   I must confess that I have been looking in my "faves" files under Reformed stuff and I can not find this. I must offer and apology for posting this. I know I was told this by a Dutch Reformed minister and thought I had the quote or info.
              This minister told me that the 1618-1619 Synod of Dort allowed the use of Organs for Psalms.
              Until I find otherwise...disregard my previous assertion.
              Again....please accept my apology for posting when I didnt know what I was talking about.
              Thanks,
              Paul
            • Colin
              ... This is also the claim of the Protestant Reformed Churches of America (PRCA). They have contended that article 69 of the Synod of Dordt 1618 permits the
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 4, 2002
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                --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., solemnleague@a... wrote:
                > Martin(list),
                > I must confess that I have been looking in my "faves" files
                > under Reformed stuff and I can not find this. I must offer and
                > apology for posting this. I know I was told this by a Dutch
                > Reformed minister and thought I had the quote or info.
                > This minister told me that the 1618-1619 Synod of Dort allowed the
                > use of Organs for Psalms.

                This is also the claim of the Protestant Reformed Churches of America
                (PRCA). They have contended that article 69 of the Synod of Dordt 1618
                permits the use of organs.

                "In their public worship on the Sabbath, these churches sing only the
                Psalms (with organ accompaniment) in keeping with article 69 of the
                Church Order adopted for the Reformed Churches by the Synod of Dordt
                (1618-1619)" --Beliefs and Practices of Faith Protestant Reformed
                Church.

                This is what article 69 actually says:

                "In the churches, only the 150 Psalms of David, the Ten Commandments,
                the Lord's Prayer, the Twelve Articles of Faith, the Song of Mary,
                that of Zacharias, and that of Simeon shall be sung. It is left to
                the individual churches whether or not to use the hymn "Oh God! who
                art our Father ." All other hymns are to be excluded from the
                churches, and in those places where some have already been
                introduced, they are to be removed by the most suitable means."

                It says nothing about musical instruments.

                Note also that the Synod did not endorse exclusive psalmody per se,
                but rather exclusive inspired praise. The Synod however earlier in
                the 16th century clearly ruled out the use of organs. Though some
                would say that it was an over reaction to "popery" then prevalant in
                those times.

                The PRCA also believe that the Belgic Confession gives them the
                liberty to use instruments in worship since it is seen as a
                circumstance of worship:

                "It is not the regulative principle that there must be an express
                biblical command for everything that goes on in a worship service,
                for example, what the minister wears; whether we stand or sit to pray
                and sing; how the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper are
                distributed; whether the singing is accompanied by an organ, begun
                with a pitch-pipe, or led by a precentor, and the like.

                "Some zealots like to present the regulative principle as requiring
                biblical warrant for every detail of a worship service, but this is
                to mistake the principle. The southern Presbyterian worthy John
                Girardeau was guilty of this error. His is the dubious honor of
                having authored what may be the most violent assault upon
                instrumental accompaniment of congregational singing ever launched.
                He called the accompaniment of congregational singing by an organ or
                piano "heresy in the sphere of worship." But Girardeau brought
                instrumental accompaniment under the condemnation of the regulative
                principle by misstating the principle. He described the regulative
                principle this way: "Whatsoever in connection with the public worship
                of the church, is not commanded by Christ … in His Word, is
                forbidden" (Instrumental Music in Public Worship, 1888, repr. New
                Covenant Publication Society, 1983, p. 200; emphasis added)

                "In fact, the church has liberty "in connection with public worship"
                to arrange a great many details of her worship: what time she meets;
                how often the Supper is administered, and how; the order of worship;
                sitting or standing for prayers and songs; form prayers in
                administering the sacraments and in exercising discipline;
                instrumental accompaniment of the singing, and more.

                "There are "circumstances" attending worship, as well as the elements
                themselves, and one reduces the regulative principle to an unworkable
                principle, if not to absurdity, if he attempts to apply it to every
                detail of worship. The New Testament church has liberty in Christ to
                arrange the details of her worship, and this liberty is important.
                The Belgic Confession claims this liberty for the Reformed church. In
                the context of "the worship of God," the Confession states that "it
                is useful and beneficial that those who are rulers of the church
                institute and establish certain ordinances among themselves for
                maintaining the body of the church" (Art. 32)."

                -"Shall We Please God or (Certain Kinds of) People? or,
                The Regulative Principle of Worship (3)" by David Engelsma, Standard
                Bearer; May 15, 2000

                Colin Tayler
              • Susan
                Thanks for this post, Colin. I believe it is going to help me in another discussion I m having outside of clubs. Did you find the Synod of Dordt quote (art.
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 5, 2002
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                  Thanks for this post, Colin. I believe it is going to help me in
                  another discussion I'm having outside of clubs.

                  Did you find the Synod of Dordt quote (art. 69) online? If so, where?

                  Susan

                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Colin " <cbx292000@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., solemnleague@a... wrote:
                  > > Martin(list),
                  > > I must confess that I have been looking in my "faves" files

                  > > under Reformed stuff and I can not find this. I must offer and

                  > > apology for posting this. I know I was told this by a Dutch

                  > > Reformed minister and thought I had the quote or info.
                  > > This minister told me that the 1618-1619 Synod of Dort allowed the
                  > > use of Organs for Psalms.
                  >
                  > This is also the claim of the Protestant Reformed Churches of
                  America
                  > (PRCA). They have contended that article 69 of the Synod of Dordt
                  1618
                  > permits the use of organs.
                  >
                  > "In their public worship on the Sabbath, these churches sing only
                  the
                  > Psalms (with organ accompaniment) in keeping with article 69 of the
                  > Church Order adopted for the Reformed Churches by the Synod of Dordt
                  > (1618-1619)" --Beliefs and Practices of Faith Protestant Reformed
                  > Church.
                  >
                  > This is what article 69 actually says:
                  >
                  > "In the churches, only the 150 Psalms of David, the Ten
                  Commandments,
                  > the Lord's Prayer, the Twelve Articles of Faith, the Song of Mary,
                  > that of Zacharias, and that of Simeon shall be sung. It is left to
                  > the individual churches whether or not to use the hymn "Oh God! who
                  > art our Father ." All other hymns are to be excluded from the
                  > churches, and in those places where some have already been
                  > introduced, they are to be removed by the most suitable means."
                  >
                  > It says nothing about musical instruments.
                  >
                  > Note also that the Synod did not endorse exclusive psalmody per se,
                  > but rather exclusive inspired praise. The Synod however earlier in
                  > the 16th century clearly ruled out the use of organs. Though some
                  > would say that it was an over reaction to "popery" then prevalant in
                  > those times.
                  >
                  > The PRCA also believe that the Belgic Confession gives them the
                  > liberty to use instruments in worship since it is seen as a
                  > circumstance of worship:
                  >
                  > "It is not the regulative principle that there must be an express
                  > biblical command for everything that goes on in a worship service,
                  > for example, what the minister wears; whether we stand or sit to
                  pray
                  > and sing; how the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper are
                  > distributed; whether the singing is accompanied by an organ, begun
                  > with a pitch-pipe, or led by a precentor, and the like.
                  >
                  > "Some zealots like to present the regulative principle as requiring
                  > biblical warrant for every detail of a worship service, but this is
                  > to mistake the principle. The southern Presbyterian worthy John
                  > Girardeau was guilty of this error. His is the dubious honor of
                  > having authored what may be the most violent assault upon
                  > instrumental accompaniment of congregational singing ever launched.
                  > He called the accompaniment of congregational singing by an organ or
                  > piano "heresy in the sphere of worship." But Girardeau brought
                  > instrumental accompaniment under the condemnation of the regulative
                  > principle by misstating the principle. He described the regulative
                  > principle this way: "Whatsoever in connection with the public
                  worship
                  > of the church, is not commanded by Christ … in His Word, is
                  > forbidden" (Instrumental Music in Public Worship, 1888, repr. New
                  > Covenant Publication Society, 1983, p. 200; emphasis added)
                  >
                  > "In fact, the church has liberty "in connection with public worship"
                  > to arrange a great many details of her worship: what time she meets;
                  > how often the Supper is administered, and how; the order of worship;
                  > sitting or standing for prayers and songs; form prayers in
                  > administering the sacraments and in exercising discipline;
                  > instrumental accompaniment of the singing, and more.
                  >
                  > "There are "circumstances" attending worship, as well as the
                  elements
                  > themselves, and one reduces the regulative principle to an
                  unworkable
                  > principle, if not to absurdity, if he attempts to apply it to every
                  > detail of worship. The New Testament church has liberty in Christ to
                  > arrange the details of her worship, and this liberty is important.
                  > The Belgic Confession claims this liberty for the Reformed church.
                  In
                  > the context of "the worship of God," the Confession states that "it
                  > is useful and beneficial that those who are rulers of the church
                  > institute and establish certain ordinances among themselves for
                  > maintaining the body of the church" (Art. 32)."
                  >
                  > -"Shall We Please God or (Certain Kinds of) People? or,
                  > The Regulative Principle of Worship (3)" by David Engelsma, Standard
                  > Bearer; May 15, 2000
                  >
                  > Colin Tayler
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