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Re: Jeff -- Covenanting

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  • scots_grey
    Alright gmw, here we go: First off, what do you mean by nations. Whether goyim in Hebrew or ethne in Greek, I don t think the writers of Scripture
    Message 1 of 734 , Sep 7, 2001
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      Alright gmw, here we go:<br><br>First off, what
      do you mean by "nations." Whether "goyim" in Hebrew
      or "ethne" in Greek, I don't think the writers of
      Scripture had anything like the contemporary nation-state
      (a very recent development, as you are aware)in
      mind. Further, I wonder if those terms aren't being
      used by you in a collective sense. Both terms were
      applied as blanket terms for all those *outside* the
      covenant community. "Peoples" might be a better rendering.
      At any rate, I don't have time to do verse-by-verse
      exegesis, but I have the <br>suspicion that you are
      committing isogesis by reading a modern notion into the
      text.<br><br>Besides that suspicion, the texts you cite don't prove
      your point. Let's take a couple of examples.<br><br>1.
      The passages from Leviticus and Deuteronomy that you
      cite say NOTHING about the moral culpability of a
      nation as a unit.<br><br>2. Psalm 9:17. First of all,
      you're prooftexting which I'm not always a big fan of.
      But I will grant you your understanding and follow
      your logic out with this text (cuz I'm that type of
      guy). All the nations that forget God will be cast into
      hell, goes your view. (BTW, what translation are you
      using? The Hebrews arguably didn't have a well-defined
      idea of heaven/hell till the exile). Anyway, let's
      look at the United States. How many people have to
      forget God before the nation is condemned?<br>51%? 75%?
      95%? Or better yet, how many people in the nation need
      to remember God to save the nation? Think about
      God's willingness to spare Sodom and Gomorrah. Now, if
      everyone has to forget God for the nation to be condemned,
      then the result is the same as if God were regarding
      the people of the nation as individuals. If some can
      remember God and the nation still be condemned, then
      either (1) those who remember God will be condemned in
      the name of the moral unity of the nation or (2) some
      will be preserved from condemnation. Here's the
      kicker. With any of the options I just explored, God is
      evaluating and judging individual people, not nations as
      wholes. For him to judge a nation as a whole means that
      either the righteous are condemned for the sake of the
      wicked, or the wicked are saved for the sake of the
      righteous.<br><br>3. Psalm 67:4. All this shows is that the divine
      government triumphs over all human
      governments.<br><br>Anyway, I think I made my point. You may yet have another
      point to make (I do think there is something to moral
      culpability as a nation), but you need to take some time and
      rethink your metaphysical and theological committments,
      and above all else your exegesis.<br><br>(cont'd)
    • almo_no1
      prayers are easy gmw, you ve got em.
      Message 734 of 734 , Sep 18, 2001
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        prayers are easy gmw, you've got 'em.
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