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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?

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  • John Felso
    Gary, Actually, the person Christ Jesus does have two wills. (Of course that is of no help to our Sabellian friends.) Monotheletism, the opinion that He has
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 4, 2002
      Gary,

      Actually, the person Christ Jesus does have two wills. (Of course that is of
      no help to our Sabellian friends.) Monotheletism, the opinion that He has
      only one will, was condemned as heretical by the third counsel of
      Constantinople in 680. The orthodox opinion is that Christ has two wills,
      one belonging to his human nature and one belonging to his divine nature,
      with His human will being in submission to the divine will. You might want
      to read up on this. As I recall, it's a very interesting topic.

      My favorite proof text to refute the Sabellians is the following:

      John 15:26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from
      the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he
      shall testify of me:

      From a modalist point of view, that verse is completely nonsensical.

      John

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Gary Gearon" <GGearon@...>
      To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 5:43 PM
      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?


      > Yup, he might just say one...
      >
      > Good prooftext from Scripture for him is:
      >
      > "I have not come to do My will, but the will of Him who sent me."
      >
      > Two wills can't be coming from one person...
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@...>
      > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 4:37 PM
      > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
      >
      >
      > > Hmm... may explain Joel's awkward silence when I quoted the Shorter
      > > Catechism on "How many persons are there in the Godhead?"
      > >
      > > gmw.
      > >
      > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Gary Gearon" <GGearon@p...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > Some deny the Trinity, too. They believe in One God, but he
      > > expresses himself in different modes or forms, yet as one person,
      > > alone (modalism). I've got a great book on the snake handling
      > > variety; some of the accounts describe the tragic death of a couple
      > > of the men from snake bites. Yikes.
      > > >
      > > > Gary
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: Cheryl
      > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@y...
      > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:14 PM
      > > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Forgot to mention that some holiness churches (at least here in
      > > Canada) come from the Pentecostal movement as well.
      > > >
      > > > Cheryl
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: Jerry
      > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@y...
      > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:50 PM
      > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hey James,
      > > >
      > > > The Holiness movement is kind of a spin off from the
      > > Methodists.
      > > > Both the Holiness guys and the Methodists trace themselves back
      > > to
      > > > the Wesleys.
      > > >
      > > > The Holiness church that Joel was ordained in, spent plenty of
      > > time
      > > > making sure Joel understood the evils of smoking, but didn't
      > > once ask
      > > > him if he was a trinitarian, or if he believed in justification
      > > by
      > > > faith alone, etc. Absurd.
      > > >
      > > > gmw.
      > > >
      > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "James Allen Dodson"
      > > > <jamescovie@y...> wrote:
      > > > > Hey everbody
      > > > > I was kind of wondering what a Holiness Church is? If any one
      > > has
      > > > an
      > > > > answer it would be greatly appreciated!!!
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks
      > > > > James
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@y...
      > > >
      > > >
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    • thebishopsdoom
      ... ???!?!?!?!?!??!!!!!???!!!???!??!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!? ...how is it that you, who confess and affirm two natures in Christ, devise a
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 5, 2002
        --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Gary Gearon" <GGearon@p...>
        wrote:
        > Good prooftext from Scripture for him is:
        >
        > "I have not come to do My will, but the will of Him who sent me."
        >
        > Two wills can't be coming from one person...

        ???!?!?!?!?!??!!!!!???!!!???!??!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?

        "...how is it that you, who confess and affirm two natures in Christ,
        devise a single will in him?" (John of Damascus, volunt. 28).

        "We dare not declare either of the natures in Christ after his
        economy to be without will or action." (3rd Council of Constantinople)

        "The doctrine of two wills was likewise a corollary of the doctrine
        of two natures. The Council at Constantinople, having recited the
        orthodox Chalcedonian faith, asserted that there were 'two natural
        wills' in Christ, but not 'two natural wills that are contrary to one
        another. God forbid!' Rather the human will of Christ's human nature
        was completely subject to the direction of the divine and omnipotent
        will of his divine nature. If there were two natures, there had to be
        two wills. Specifically, the only difference between the human nature
        of Christ and our human nature lay in 'the novel mode of his
        genesis,' the virginal conception. In every other way, it was a
        nature like ours, hence one that had a will. When Christ was hungry
        or thirsty, it was his human will that desired food or drink, which
        his divine nature did not need. To make the doctrine of two natural
        wills coherent, certain distinctions were necessary. It was helpful
        to make a distinction in the human nature of Christ between the
        natural will which was ontologically distinct from the divine will,
        and the deliberative will, which was functionally identical with the
        divine will. In addition to this distinction, which 'constitutes one
        of the most important contributions of [Maximus] the Confessor to the
        elaboration of the Christian tradition' (although he himself gave
        credit for it to an unnamed monk), there was a related distinction
        between the will as a natural psychological faculty, and the will
        as 'that which is willed, that which is subject to the will' faculty.
        These distinctions enabled the theologian to posit two natural wills
        without even having to entertain the unthinkable possibility that
        there would be a conflict between them in their objects. The question
        of conflict was, in any case, 'not a matter of number,' whether one
        or two, but of 'opposition.' THE PRAYER OF CHRIST IN GETHSEMANE
        MEANT, 'NOT MY HUMAN WILL [BE DONE], BUT THY WILL, THAT WHICH IS
        COMMON TO ME THE LOGOS AND TO THEE [THE FATHER].'" (Jarislav Pelikan,
        The Christian Tradition, vol. 2, p 74 [emphasis added])

        "As there was one action for the Trinity, so there was also a single
        will, 'one natural will of the three hypostases,... wherefore the
        three hypostases are not three gods, but one God.' [John of Damascus,
        volunt. 24] Action and will belonged, then, not to the hypostasis of
        the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, but to the nature that was common to
        the three; those who had 'one nature also have one will and one
        action.' [Constantine IV Pogonatus, Edict] And where, on the other
        hand, there were two natures, there had to be two wills and two
        actions, one for each nature. IF THERE WERE A SINGLE ACTION AND
        SINGLE WILL IN CHRIST, THIS WOULD REQUIRE THAT WILL AND ACTION BELONG
        TO THE HYPOSTASIS; APPLIED TO THE TRINITY, THIS MEANT THAT "THREE
        DIVINE HYPOSTASES ***WOULD SUPPOSE THREE DEITIES*** AND THREE
        ENERGIES." (Pelikan, ibid. p 78 [emphasis added]).
        -thebishopsdoom
      • Jerry
        I vote we stone Gary for his heretical views! Who s in with me? (show of hands) ... gmw. ... that is of ... He has ... wills, ... nature, ... might want ...
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 5, 2002
          I vote we stone Gary for his heretical views! Who's in with me?

          (show of hands)

          :)

          gmw.

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "John Felso" <john@f...> wrote:
          > Gary,
          >
          > Actually, the person Christ Jesus does have two wills. (Of course
          that is of
          > no help to our Sabellian friends.) Monotheletism, the opinion that
          He has
          > only one will, was condemned as heretical by the third counsel of
          > Constantinople in 680. The orthodox opinion is that Christ has two
          wills,
          > one belonging to his human nature and one belonging to his divine
          nature,
          > with His human will being in submission to the divine will. You
          might want
          > to read up on this. As I recall, it's a very interesting topic.
          >
          > My favorite proof text to refute the Sabellians is the following:
          >
          > John 15:26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto
          you from
          > the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the
          Father, he
          > shall testify of me:
          >
          > From a modalist point of view, that verse is completely nonsensical.
          >
          > John
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Gary Gearon" <GGearon@p...>
          > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
          > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 5:43 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
          >
          >
          > > Yup, he might just say one...
          > >
          > > Good prooftext from Scripture for him is:
          > >
          > > "I have not come to do My will, but the will of Him who sent me."
          > >
          > > Two wills can't be coming from one person...
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@c...>
          > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
          > > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 4:37 PM
          > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
          > >
          > >
          > > > Hmm... may explain Joel's awkward silence when I quoted the
          Shorter
          > > > Catechism on "How many persons are there in the Godhead?"
          > > >
          > > > gmw.
          > > >
          > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Gary Gearon"
          <GGearon@p...>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > > Some deny the Trinity, too. They believe in One God, but he
          > > > expresses himself in different modes or forms, yet as one
          person,
          > > > alone (modalism). I've got a great book on the snake handling
          > > > variety; some of the accounts describe the tragic death of a
          couple
          > > > of the men from snake bites. Yikes.
          > > > >
          > > > > Gary
          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > > From: Cheryl
          > > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@y...
          > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:14 PM
          > > > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Forgot to mention that some holiness churches (at least
          here in
          > > > Canada) come from the Pentecostal movement as well.
          > > > >
          > > > > Cheryl
          > > > >
          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > > From: Jerry
          > > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@y...
          > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:50 PM
          > > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Hey James,
          > > > >
          > > > > The Holiness movement is kind of a spin off from the
          > > > Methodists.
          > > > > Both the Holiness guys and the Methodists trace
          themselves back
          > > > to
          > > > > the Wesleys.
          > > > >
          > > > > The Holiness church that Joel was ordained in, spent
          plenty of
          > > > time
          > > > > making sure Joel understood the evils of smoking, but
          didn't
          > > > once ask
          > > > > him if he was a trinitarian, or if he believed in
          justification
          > > > by
          > > > > faith alone, etc. Absurd.
          > > > >
          > > > > gmw.
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "James Allen
          Dodson"
          > > > > <jamescovie@y...> wrote:
          > > > > > Hey everbody
          > > > > > I was kind of wondering what a Holiness Church is? If
          any one
          > > > has
          > > > > an
          > > > > > answer it would be greatly appreciated!!!
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Thanks
          > > > > > James
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@y...
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
          of
          > > > Service.
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          > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
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          > > >
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        • John Felso
          Even Michael Servetus was given a chance to repent. Perhaps we should see whether he repents before we consign him to the flames. ... From: Jerry
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 5, 2002
            Even Michael Servetus was given a chance to repent. Perhaps we should see
            whether he repents before we consign him to the flames.

            :)

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@...>
            To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 8:55 AM
            Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?


            I vote we stone Gary for his heretical views! Who's in with me?

            (show of hands)

            :)

            gmw.

            --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "John Felso" <john@f...> wrote:
            > Gary,
            >
            > Actually, the person Christ Jesus does have two wills. (Of course
            that is of
            > no help to our Sabellian friends.) Monotheletism, the opinion that
            He has
            > only one will, was condemned as heretical by the third counsel of
            > Constantinople in 680. The orthodox opinion is that Christ has two
            wills,
            > one belonging to his human nature and one belonging to his divine
            nature,
            > with His human will being in submission to the divine will. You
            might want
            > to read up on this. As I recall, it's a very interesting topic.
            >
            > My favorite proof text to refute the Sabellians is the following:
            >
            > John 15:26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto
            you from
            > the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the
            Father, he
            > shall testify of me:
            >
            > From a modalist point of view, that verse is completely nonsensical.
            >
            > John
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Gary Gearon" <GGearon@p...>
            > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
            > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 5:43 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
            >
            >
            > > Yup, he might just say one...
            > >
            > > Good prooftext from Scripture for him is:
            > >
            > > "I have not come to do My will, but the will of Him who sent me."
            > >
            > > Two wills can't be coming from one person...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@c...>
            > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
            > > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 4:37 PM
            > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
            > >
            > >
            > > > Hmm... may explain Joel's awkward silence when I quoted the
            Shorter
            > > > Catechism on "How many persons are there in the Godhead?"
            > > >
            > > > gmw.
            > > >
            > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Gary Gearon"
            <GGearon@p...>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > > Some deny the Trinity, too. They believe in One God, but he
            > > > expresses himself in different modes or forms, yet as one
            person,
            > > > alone (modalism). I've got a great book on the snake handling
            > > > variety; some of the accounts describe the tragic death of a
            couple
            > > > of the men from snake bites. Yikes.
            > > > >
            > > > > Gary
            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > > From: Cheryl
            > > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@y...
            > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:14 PM
            > > > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Forgot to mention that some holiness churches (at least
            here in
            > > > Canada) come from the Pentecostal movement as well.
            > > > >
            > > > > Cheryl
            > > > >
            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > > From: Jerry
            > > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@y...
            > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:50 PM
            > > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Hey James,
            > > > >
            > > > > The Holiness movement is kind of a spin off from the
            > > > Methodists.
            > > > > Both the Holiness guys and the Methodists trace
            themselves back
            > > > to
            > > > > the Wesleys.
            > > > >
            > > > > The Holiness church that Joel was ordained in, spent
            plenty of
            > > > time
            > > > > making sure Joel understood the evils of smoking, but
            didn't
            > > > once ask
            > > > > him if he was a trinitarian, or if he believed in
            justification
            > > > by
            > > > > faith alone, etc. Absurd.
            > > > >
            > > > > gmw.
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "James Allen
            Dodson"
            > > > > <jamescovie@y...> wrote:
            > > > > > Hey everbody
            > > > > > I was kind of wondering what a Holiness Church is? If
            any one
            > > > has
            > > > > an
            > > > > > answer it would be greatly appreciated!!!
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Thanks
            > > > > > James
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@y...
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
            of
            > > > Service.
            > > > >
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            > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
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            > > > >
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          • Jerry
            How bout we use really tiny rocks so it just stings slightly. That ll learn him. gmw. ... should see ... nonsensical. ... me. ... of ...
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 5, 2002
              How 'bout we use really tiny rocks so it just stings slightly.
              That'll learn him.

              gmw.

              --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "John Felso" <john@f...> wrote:
              > Even Michael Servetus was given a chance to repent. Perhaps we
              should see
              > whether he repents before we consign him to the flames.
              >
              > :)
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@c...>
              > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
              > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 8:55 AM
              > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
              >
              >
              > I vote we stone Gary for his heretical views! Who's in with me?
              >
              > (show of hands)
              >
              > :)
              >
              > gmw.
              >
              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "John Felso" <john@f...>
              wrote:
              > > Gary,
              > >
              > > Actually, the person Christ Jesus does have two wills. (Of course
              > that is of
              > > no help to our Sabellian friends.) Monotheletism, the opinion that
              > He has
              > > only one will, was condemned as heretical by the third counsel of
              > > Constantinople in 680. The orthodox opinion is that Christ has two
              > wills,
              > > one belonging to his human nature and one belonging to his divine
              > nature,
              > > with His human will being in submission to the divine will. You
              > might want
              > > to read up on this. As I recall, it's a very interesting topic.
              > >
              > > My favorite proof text to refute the Sabellians is the following:
              > >
              > > John 15:26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto
              > you from
              > > the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the
              > Father, he
              > > shall testify of me:
              > >
              > > From a modalist point of view, that verse is completely
              nonsensical.
              > >
              > > John
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Gary Gearon" <GGearon@p...>
              > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
              > > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 5:43 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
              > >
              > >
              > > > Yup, he might just say one...
              > > >
              > > > Good prooftext from Scripture for him is:
              > > >
              > > > "I have not come to do My will, but the will of Him who sent
              me."
              > > >
              > > > Two wills can't be coming from one person...
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@c...>
              > > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
              > > > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 4:37 PM
              > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > > Hmm... may explain Joel's awkward silence when I quoted the
              > Shorter
              > > > > Catechism on "How many persons are there in the Godhead?"
              > > > >
              > > > > gmw.
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Gary Gearon"
              > <GGearon@p...>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > Some deny the Trinity, too. They believe in One God, but he
              > > > > expresses himself in different modes or forms, yet as one
              > person,
              > > > > alone (modalism). I've got a great book on the snake handling
              > > > > variety; some of the accounts describe the tragic death of a
              > couple
              > > > > of the men from snake bites. Yikes.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Gary
              > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > > > From: Cheryl
              > > > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@y...
              > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:14 PM
              > > > > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Forgot to mention that some holiness churches (at least
              > here in
              > > > > Canada) come from the Pentecostal movement as well.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Cheryl
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > > > From: Jerry
              > > > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@y...
              > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:50 PM
              > > > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Hey James,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > The Holiness movement is kind of a spin off from the
              > > > > Methodists.
              > > > > > Both the Holiness guys and the Methodists trace
              > themselves back
              > > > > to
              > > > > > the Wesleys.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > The Holiness church that Joel was ordained in, spent
              > plenty of
              > > > > time
              > > > > > making sure Joel understood the evils of smoking, but
              > didn't
              > > > > once ask
              > > > > > him if he was a trinitarian, or if he believed in
              > justification
              > > > > by
              > > > > > faith alone, etc. Absurd.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > gmw.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "James Allen
              > Dodson"
              > > > > > <jamescovie@y...> wrote:
              > > > > > > Hey everbody
              > > > > > > I was kind of wondering what a Holiness Church is? If
              > any one
              > > > > has
              > > > > > an
              > > > > > > answer it would be greatly appreciated!!!
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Thanks
              > > > > > > James
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@y...
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
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            • deejay_39
              How bout we use really tiny rocks so it just stings slightly. That ll learn him. gmw ... Yeah, well as I mentioned elsewhere, I watched the first part of
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 5, 2002
                How 'bout we use really tiny rocks so it just stings slightly. 
                That'll learn him.

                gmw
                 
                 

                 
                Yeah, well as I mentioned elsewhere, I watched the first part of Braveheart last night.  And Mel Gibson did some damage with little rocks.
                 
                ~Deejay<--never be a covie but always felt welcome
              • deejay_39
                ~Deejay
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 5, 2002
                  ~Deejay<--never be a covie but always felt welcome
                   

                   
                   
                  Sorry, that wasn't meant as having a dig at covies.  Just different ideas I guess.  
                   
                  ~Deejay
                   


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                • timmopussycat
                  ... ideas I guess. ... Hi Deejay For what its worth, I don t think your remark would would have been interpreted as a dig at covies by anyone on this list.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 5, 2002
                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "deejay_39" <deejay_39@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > ~Deejay<--never be a covie but always felt welcome
                    >
                    >
                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    ------------
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Sorry, that wasn't meant as having a dig at covies. Just different
                    ideas I guess.
                    >
                    > ~Deejay
                    >
                    >
                    -----------

                    Hi Deejay

                    For what its worth, I don't think your remark would would have been
                    interpreted as a dig at covies by anyone on this list. This group has
                    the highest charity level of any Christian discussion group I have
                    yet seen - and most of these folks know I'm not a covie either.

                    From some things I have seen in various places recently, I know you
                    are concerned about the "Phantom Poster" affair and the poster's
                    identity. I can't help much to resolve that incident except to
                    commend "forthelordsglory" for correctly noticing that such postings
                    are not my style. Nor are they Susanandcrew's, but I think you
                    already know that.

                    Meow

                    Tp

                    Timmopussycat
                  • timmopussycat
                    ... Tp The predestined persian has been spending the summer and fall settling himself and his wife into new jobs in new fields, a somewhat stressful and time
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 6, 2002
                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Susan " <susanandcrew@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > Hey Timmo! Where ya been?

                      Tp

                      The predestined persian has been spending the summer and fall
                      settling himself and his wife into new jobs in new fields, a somewhat
                      stressful and time consuming endeavour which has thrown off my
                      writing schedule - to say nothing of web surfing.

                      > And thank you for believing the best about me, that is in short
                      order these days.

                      Tp

                      Deeply sorry to hear that and I must say I don't see why that should
                      be. Anybody who has followed groups long enough to know that you
                      might want to respond to CL would also know that you have longer
                      standing and better reasons to make DR your target and that you would
                      do in an upfront way. Since DR was not the target I knew, even before
                      making a stylistic analysis of the postings, that you were a most
                      unlikely candidate for the role of "phantom poster." Having now made
                      such an analysis the odds against yau being the phantom have
                      increased by a couple of orders of magnitude.

                      Meow

                      Tim
                    • S.P.Padbury
                      Dear all, You folk have been having fun while I was away! I ve just been catching up on your Holiness Church posts. We have them over here too. Only here
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 7, 2002
                        Dear all,

                        You folk have been having fun while I was away! I've just been
                        catching up on your Holiness Church posts.

                        We have them over here too. Only here they're called Church of the
                        Nazarene. They are essentially Wesleyan, and I understood that
                        the Pentecostalists (partly) grew out our of them, not the other way
                        round.

                        Due to a strange quirk of history, the Presbyterian church that my
                        wife and I are seeking to migrate toward meet in an old Sunday
                        School building of what was a Congregationalist Church (still has
                        this name in the stonework above the door). The Congregationalists
                        were what some of the English Presbyterians became, presumably
                        through the influence of men like John Owen. Others became
                        Uniterians (how the mighty have fallen!). Others moved on to New
                        England, and compiled the Bay Psalm Book.

                        Simon.

                        PS (or should it be Prrrrrr?) Predestined Persians are kewl.
                        Greetings from England!
                      • timmopussycat
                        ... Tp Yes they are. But I m a crossbreed. The other half is Baptist byssinian. Meow Tp
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 7, 2002
                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "S.P.Padbury" <S.Padbury@s...>
                          wrote:

                          > PS (or should it be Prrrrrr?) Predestined Persians are kewl.
                          > Greetings from England!

                          Tp

                          Yes they are. But I'm a crossbreed. The other half is
                          Baptist 'byssinian.

                          Meow

                          Tp
                        • S.P.Padbury
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 7, 2002
                          • Gary Gearon
                            I see I made a mistake. Thanks for all the excellent commentary. I appreciate it. I git this originally out of a book on teh Trinity by Ankerberg. I believe I
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 10, 2002
                              I see I made a mistake. Thanks for all the excellent commentary. I
                              appreciate it. I git this originally out of a book on teh Trinity by
                              Ankerberg. I believe I misread what he was trying to say in defense of the
                              Trinity. I do not have the bookwith me as I am down in N'awlins.

                              Talk to you later, the Lord willing,

                              Gary



                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "thebishopsdoom" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                              To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 3:05 AM
                              Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Holiness Church?


                              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Gary Gearon" <GGearon@p...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > Good prooftext from Scripture for him is:
                              > >
                              > > "I have not come to do My will, but the will of Him who sent me."
                              > >
                              > > Two wills can't be coming from one person...
                              >
                              > ???!?!?!?!?!??!!!!!???!!!???!??!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?
                              >
                              > "...how is it that you, who confess and affirm two natures in Christ,
                              > devise a single will in him?" (John of Damascus, volunt. 28).
                              >
                              > "We dare not declare either of the natures in Christ after his
                              > economy to be without will or action." (3rd Council of Constantinople)
                              >
                              > "The doctrine of two wills was likewise a corollary of the doctrine
                              > of two natures. The Council at Constantinople, having recited the
                              > orthodox Chalcedonian faith, asserted that there were 'two natural
                              > wills' in Christ, but not 'two natural wills that are contrary to one
                              > another. God forbid!' Rather the human will of Christ's human nature
                              > was completely subject to the direction of the divine and omnipotent
                              > will of his divine nature. If there were two natures, there had to be
                              > two wills. Specifically, the only difference between the human nature
                              > of Christ and our human nature lay in 'the novel mode of his
                              > genesis,' the virginal conception. In every other way, it was a
                              > nature like ours, hence one that had a will. When Christ was hungry
                              > or thirsty, it was his human will that desired food or drink, which
                              > his divine nature did not need. To make the doctrine of two natural
                              > wills coherent, certain distinctions were necessary. It was helpful
                              > to make a distinction in the human nature of Christ between the
                              > natural will which was ontologically distinct from the divine will,
                              > and the deliberative will, which was functionally identical with the
                              > divine will. In addition to this distinction, which 'constitutes one
                              > of the most important contributions of [Maximus] the Confessor to the
                              > elaboration of the Christian tradition' (although he himself gave
                              > credit for it to an unnamed monk), there was a related distinction
                              > between the will as a natural psychological faculty, and the will
                              > as 'that which is willed, that which is subject to the will' faculty.
                              > These distinctions enabled the theologian to posit two natural wills
                              > without even having to entertain the unthinkable possibility that
                              > there would be a conflict between them in their objects. The question
                              > of conflict was, in any case, 'not a matter of number,' whether one
                              > or two, but of 'opposition.' THE PRAYER OF CHRIST IN GETHSEMANE
                              > MEANT, 'NOT MY HUMAN WILL [BE DONE], BUT THY WILL, THAT WHICH IS
                              > COMMON TO ME THE LOGOS AND TO THEE [THE FATHER].'" (Jarislav Pelikan,
                              > The Christian Tradition, vol. 2, p 74 [emphasis added])
                              >
                              > "As there was one action for the Trinity, so there was also a single
                              > will, 'one natural will of the three hypostases,... wherefore the
                              > three hypostases are not three gods, but one God.' [John of Damascus,
                              > volunt. 24] Action and will belonged, then, not to the hypostasis of
                              > the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, but to the nature that was common to
                              > the three; those who had 'one nature also have one will and one
                              > action.' [Constantine IV Pogonatus, Edict] And where, on the other
                              > hand, there were two natures, there had to be two wills and two
                              > actions, one for each nature. IF THERE WERE A SINGLE ACTION AND
                              > SINGLE WILL IN CHRIST, THIS WOULD REQUIRE THAT WILL AND ACTION BELONG
                              > TO THE HYPOSTASIS; APPLIED TO THE TRINITY, THIS MEANT THAT "THREE
                              > DIVINE HYPOSTASES ***WOULD SUPPOSE THREE DEITIES*** AND THREE
                              > ENERGIES." (Pelikan, ibid. p 78 [emphasis added]).
                              > -thebishopsdoom
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
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